According to the Integrity Chief of the National Disability Insurance Agency ('integrity chief - now there's a misnomer!) 5% of the NDIS budget of $42 billion (yep 'B' billion) is stolen by criminals and rorters of the scheme. That is $2.1 Billion is stolen.

And that's just the theft they can identify. No one knows how much more is stolen that goes unnoticed. You know we a re a very rich country when we can piss this sort of money up against a wall and everyone just shrugs and treats it the cost of doing business.

When it was first introduced, we were assured it was going to cost less than $15 billion per year and would be highly controlled to ensure the money was well spent and benefited the most needy members of society.

Yeah well now its trebled in cost and is obviously not in the slightest tightly controlled. But its a government run scheme so what would you expect?

And what is their solution. Well now they are going to have a registration scheme for all the providers - administered by the government. As usual, we have a big government scheme that wantonly wastes taxpayer funds and the only solution they can think of is more government.

The NDIS was always going to be a money-pit. How could it be otherwise? No public servant or government is going to say no to any group or individual claiming to be needy or a victim.

But fear not, in a decade's time, only losing $2 billion a year will seem like a bargain.

We know. We know. It's all over the news - for a week. After that, there will be some other government f...k up that the politicians we vote for have engineered. Only people in the public eye can do anything about it. We just don't have those people in this increasingly rooted backward corner of the West.

Here we go again. Rather than acknowledge that the NDIS is a worthy and worthwhile scheme which helps the most needy in our society, the RWNJ's pile on it's problems. They never, ever acknowledge or accept that the rot and rorting occurred over the last 10 years when it just so happened to be under the watchful stewardship of the LNP coalition government. It's a (expletive) side easier for them to bitch and moan from the sidelines about the cost, rather than do something constructive about fixing it. You lot make me sick.

Thank God (G-d) the Lesbian horror story didn’t succeed in taking away our old clunkers from us…it was close.

Maybe the NDIS distracted the bit#h long enough to forget the scheme and abandon its concept of only the wealthy travelling to work by car, “It” was happy enough for the poor to ride a donkey or walk.

How long before it'll be admitted that NDIS & ROBODEBT were Labor orchestrated fiascos ?

Aries54,

I specifically didn't mention either party in my original post for two reasons:
1. Because the failures in the system aren't caused by either party, or more exactly are caused by neither party. This is a failure of the bureaucracy not the parliament.
2. Because I knew some bozo would try to subvert the issue into a Lab v Lib thing, when its not.

I specifically didn't call for a reappraisal of the NDIS or call for funding cuts or criticise the rationale behind the scheme for two reasons:

1 the NDIS is a fundamental worthwhile project and something a rich country can afford and should do
2. I knew some bozo would use any claim for reappraisal as an excuse to attack the sincerity of those calling for the scheme to be made more efficient.

The scheme is generally supported by the public and both sides of the divide. But it will only remain thus so long as the public is sure that they aren't being taken for fools by the failures of the system. As usual, the bureaucracy has badly dropped the ball on this and allowed vast sums of money to be pissed up against the wall. Expecting the bureaucracy to fix it is a fool's errand

This is a failure of the bureaucracy not the parliament.
mhaze,
Precisely ! And or but, the majority of bureaucrats are Labor supporting droids ! Easy to see how these abortions of managing were designed to hurt the Conservatives ! As long as Public Servants are required to vote, nothing will improve !

"1. Because the failures in the system aren't caused by either party, or more exactly are caused by neither party. This is a failure of the bureaucracy not the parliament."

Great system this democracy, apparently no-ones accountable.
No wonder the Chinese are winning.

"I specifically didn't call for a reappraisal of the NDIS or call for funding cuts or criticise the rationale behind the scheme for two reasons:
- 2. I knew some bozo would use any claim for reappraisal as an excuse to attack the sincerity of those calling for the scheme to be made more efficient."
- Well that's a bit weak isn't it?

If you want the scheme to be more efficient, why not just say that?

The problem here is greedy capitalism, and no constraints on spending.

My solution for this problem, to MASSIVELY CUT COSTS is the same as the solution to buy work boots for job-seekers in the job network system.

Don't give jobseekers a cash voucher to go to the most expensive retailer. The government needs to be it's own retailer and have it's own warehouses full of shoes at cost.

And it also needs its own warehouses full of imported goods suitable for NDIS patients.

i.e $38.50 for a shower chair, not $385.00.

Until we get real, the idiots will indeed piss it all away.

We're paying people $90 hour to watch TV while a single NDIS client sleeps, it probably means 10 normal people have to work a full time job to pay the tax that is used to take care of 1 person.

What would the Chinese do?
They are probably not paying $385 for a shower chair.
They are probably not paying $38.50 either.
They are probably paying $3.85 a unit.

Build big warehouses and fill them full of all the stuff you need.
For crying out loud, doesn't the bloody government ALREADY OWN Australia Post, same day delivery?

If we let idiots run the country, they will run it into the ground.
How do Australians feel about spending 10 billion dollars, to only purchase 1 billion dollars worth of stuff?

AC,

This is undoubtably going to come as a surprise to you, but China DOESN'T have a scheme like the NDIS.

Why? well:
1. they are not wealthy enough to afford one. A nation being able to expand vast sums to look after its disabled members is something that only truly wealthy nations can do. China isn't one of those.
2. They don't care about their disabled. Sure individuals probably do, but for totalitarian governments like the CCP, people are merely cogs in the machine designed for the benefit of the rulers. If people aren't useful cogs they are discarded.

Hence China doesn't have an NDIS style scheme and never will.

But apologists like AC will ignore that and tell us that, if they did have a scheme (did I mention they don't), then it'd be awesome. It doesn't exist but let's pretend it does and then swoon at how great the CCP is. Struth!

"What would the Chinese do?
They are probably not paying $385 for a shower chair.
They are probably not paying $38.50 either.
They are probably paying $3.85 a unit."

Then AC shows he understands the nature of the NDIS the same way my budgie understand Newton's laws of motion. The NDIS isn't about stuff. That's a small fraction of the scheme. Its about providing personal services. Which, if AC ever gets around to understanding that, he'll tell us the Chinese would do in an awesome manner...if they cared.

"This is undoubtably going to come as a surprise to you, but China DOESN'T have a scheme like the NDIS."

- What China does with it's disabled is besides the point and irrelevant to the argument I was making.
Are we or are we not talking about costs?

Was your first opening statement not:
"According to the Integrity Chief of the National Disability Insurance Agency ('integrity chief - now there's a misnomer!) 5% of the NDIS budget of $42 billion (yep 'B' billion) is stolen by criminals and rorters of the scheme. That is $2.1 Billion is stolen"?

So 2.1 billion stolen is a problem;
But 5 or 10 billion wasted in overpaying for stuff is perfectly fine?

I don't know what the stats are...
Lets say 75% is labour costs and 25% is buying essential equipment.
- That's still 10 billion plus spent on 'overpriced' 'rorted' essential equipment.

Take a broad view of the problem
What do you want to do, lower labour costs?
Pay the workers less and get a lower standard of care?
- Or alternatively find a way to use your labour more efficiently?

For example don't pay 1 person $90 an hour to watch over 1 NDIS client as they sleep, pay that 1 person $90 an hour to watch over 5 NDIS clients as they sleep, somehow in some kind of purpose built homes that still maintain their standard of care but dramatically reduces labour costs (the need for so many workers)
- If this is the major cost.

"Then AC shows he understands the nature of the NDIS the same way my budgie understand Newton's laws of motion. The NDIS isn't about stuff. That's a small fraction of the scheme. Its about providing personal services. Which, if AC ever gets around to understanding that, he'll tell us the Chinese would do in an awesome manner...if they cared."

I know enough about it, I have a friend that provides care to NDIS clients, many non-verbal.
Some in the game are getting fat stinking rich ripping people off for overpriced equipment,
Some are getting fat stinking rich managing other disability workers.
Some get paid a lot (self employed service contractors) to take disabled people out on easy outings and watch them while they sleep;
And others (on wages) can get paid little and get the worst clients and are spat on, punched in the face, attacked, bitten, groped and otherwise sexual abused, have to clean up excrement smeared all over walls etc. and are just generally abused on a daily basis, like all these things are just a normal and accepted of the job, apart from the normal duties which include having to change nappies, as well as washing and feed clients, write reports and establish individual care plans etc..

Spoke to my friend earlier, she said she spent the day being spat on and bitten.
No titty grabs today though, maybe she'll have better luck there tomorrow.

One of her previous clients was a 40 year old wheelchair bound man that likes to wear bikinis and demanded she take him looking for sex toys to buy, which he also requested she use on / in him, as he is physically unable to.
- He was a bit of a perverted handicap client that one.
Perhaps you'd like some more juicy details and stories...

On second thoughts, I'm not really sure I could or should share such details here tbh.
Some things just aren't in good taste, and I'm not sure it's right to open such a window into the private lives of the less fortunate.

Wow! $20 billion dollars in taxes rorted yearly from the ndis. Even by Bowen's "Whizz it up against a wall" pricing policy, that's over 2 gigawatts of nuclear generating capacity that could be paid for each year.

For all its good intentions, rorting on that scale needs immediate redress.

Thanks Aries54,

You've hit the nail on the head, the NDIS makes a worthwhile and valuable contribution to the well being of Australian society. Under the stewardship of Bill Shorten things can only improve. I put the NDIS up there with Medicare as one of the best Labor social welfare
initiatives of modern times.

Good to see that AC has dropped his Chinese-do-it-better rubbish although, having written two posts lauding the Chinese (non-)system, he now says he didn't. Go figure. Still it didn't take too much work to get him to see a little of the truth.

Unfortunately he replaces one form of BS claims with another - he now tells us that that NDIS overpays $5 to $10 billion on 'stuff'. No evidence for that mind you, just a number he made up and then pretends is valid.

There's little doubt that NDIS is a money-pit. Its a government run system so how can it be otherwise? The costs blow out; targets are never met; claims explode; the numbers claiming they need to be covered expands exponentially. It was always going to be thus.

What needs to happen is a radical rethink of the service delivery system and getting the failed public service out of the process. But that will never happen until the system becomes such a drain of the nation that a radical solution becomes the only option.

I've listened to Bill Shorten and so many others on
both the news and programs like Q and A.

Everyone seems to be aware that so many NDIS participants
are not getting the support they need.

We're told that there is too much fraud. That criminals are
infiltrating the scheme. That 3rd parties are taking
advantage of the system.

There is a long list of criticisms. And the conclusions are
that the government needs to start fixing the scheme. It
needs to stop the fraud and put people with disabilities
back at the centre of the scheme - to ensure we're told
that it will still be here for future generations.

I believe that the NDIS scheme is as fundamental to
Australia as Medicare.

Bill Shorten promises that his department has a plan and
a strategy that is going to be implemented. He tells us we
need to support quality service providers and clamp down on
unethical practices.

Let's hope that the plans will do just that and fix the system.

All this gobbledegook is a waste of time.

Australians knew from its inception that NDIS was going to be unaffordable and wide open to criminal fraud.

The scheme has been proved to be just that.

It's only back in the news because a couple of crooks were unlucky enough to be caught.

Shorten has been goggle-eyed and flat-footed for two years; he doesn't have a clue. Only a complete shut down of the circus will put a stop
it.

And all of you rabbiting on about it here, whether from boredom or the belief that anymous twaddle gets noticed, don't get a say in it.

ttbn,

There are many who defraud the aged welfare system, a very expensive handout, (know of one greedy fella collecting the full aged welfare but has $6 million buried in family trust, of which he is not a beneficiary ha,ha). Given fraud in aged welfare like that, should it not be disbanded immediately?

"Good to see that AC has dropped his Chinese-do-it-better rubbish although, having written two posts lauding the Chinese (non-)system, he now says he didn't. Go figure. Still it didn't take too much work to get him to see a little of the truth."
- I'm willing to bet both my testicles the Chinese don't pay $389.00 for a shower chair like this.
https://www.mobilityhq.com.au/shower-stool-w-arms-padded-seat-zinc-550mm

- Just as well it's on bloody special too.
Normally $778.40 - Save $389.40!!
NDIS APPROVED !!
Thumbs up !!

This shower chair looks like a $15 piece of junk from Kmart
Are you quite happy to be charged $778.40 for it?
Maybe 50 times its real value?

The Australia people are getting ripped off.
And if they are paying near $800 for this....
The how many other items is the government will to pay 'top dollar and then some' with no questions asked

And then the question is wtf are we arguing about
wtf did you post this topic for if you don't actually want to hear how the Aussie are being taken to the cleaners with incompetent shady bureaucrats and a PM who reminds me of Mr. Magoo, and is probably as switched on.
http://youtu.be/t8GTHXTEvIc

HAVE I NOT MADE MY POINT?

I'm with Fester, lets save some money and build some nuclear power plants.

As for Chinese disability services, I did actually take a look the other day.

Taking Steps Toward Disability Inclusion in China
http://ssir.org/articles/entry/disability-inclusion-china
"With 85 million people with disabilities, or 6.5 percent of the population, China has enacted more than 60 laws and regulations aimed at safeguarding the rights of individuals with disabilities, encompassing those with visual, auditory, linguistic, physical, intellectual, psychological, and multiple disabilities. Over the past 30 years, it has made substantial improvements in the living conditions and social status of people with disabilities due to rapid economic growth, administrative and legislative actions, and the dedicated efforts of nonprofit organizations that champion the disability community."

China has made remarkable advancements in disability protection: Chinese expert
http://english.www.gov.cn/news/202403/12/content_WS65efa971c6d0868f4e8e5003.html
"Over the past decade, China's disability sector has witnessed remarkable achievements, she said, adding that over 7.1 million people with disabilities in rural areas have been lifted out of absolute poverty and a special welfare system has been established nationwide, including two subsidies for disabled people and rehabilitation aid for disabled children.
She also said services offered for persons with disabilities have transformed from partial coverage to inclusion of the entire disabled population, from temporary assistance to institutionalized protection and from individualized support to regularized services."

No matter what the real truth is, they're obviously working to improve their standard of care - which is a good thing, so what exactly do you want?
- Maybe you wanted to tell everyone how the Chinese murder their handicapped and eat them raw with their bare hands in a yearly bloodfeast festival instead?

"Australians knew from its inception that NDIS was going to be unaffordable and wide open to criminal fraud."

Set the 'fraud' part aside.
The 'daylight robbery' I'm seeing right here isn't done sneakily behind closed doors
It's right out there in the open for ALL TO SEE.
http://www.mobilityhq.com.au/shower-stool-w-arms-padded-seat-zinc-550mm

I wonder how many disability care services actually own disability equipment businesses, and one business is charging the other business top dollar and the owner actually owns both business?
Hire staff, sit back, suck up all the NDIS government money like a syphon...
Why, because the government is stupid enough to create a system that allows them to do it.

Paul

I'm sure people cheat Centrelink. But I seem to remember that you defended them at one stage. Robodebt?

But, trusts are perfectly legal. I don't think spending NDIS money on booze, prostitutes, holidays and Mercedes’s is legal.

But, my comments are about everyone chuntering on about the NDIS, knowing full well they don't have to fix it, have no idea how to fix it, any more than Buffalo Bill Shorten knows how to fix it. The thing has probably been rorted right, left and centre since 2013.

My message to all the amateurs here is this: unless they can change things, get over it.Look up the serenity prayer.

Their only control over what goes on is a vote every three years. And, as you said the other day, 80% of them even let politicians tell them how to do that! Windbags the lot of them.

When Daniel Andrews is made a Companion of the Order of Australia in in the King's birthday list, you know how far down the gurgler this country has gone, and how much your tiny little voices will be noticed.

ttbn,

"I seem to remember that you defended them at one stage. Robodebt?"

Your memory is faulty, I've never defended cheats. As for those receiving aged welfare while hiding assets and benefits, its not uncommon, so based on your premise, the way to stop rorting, is to stop the system, lets cut off all aged welfare that will certainly stop the rorters. Agree?

p/s As for Robodebt I wouldn't be defending the Coalition criminals involved, why should I?

Paul

You defended them alright. You defended and still defend anyone against the Coalition government, pussies though they are. It's in your DNA. You were sobbing all over the place as Centrelink rounded up the cheats.

And, just so you know, Aged Pensions are not ‘welfare’. It is nothing like NDIS.

The Age Pension has been around since 1909, allowing people not as wealthy as you are to live with some dignity.

NDIS has been around since 2013. Before that people managed well enough. Now they want to wallow in luxury because of lately invented diseases and mental complaints.

Yes. It should be abolished. There are disability pensions, Medicare and NGOs/charities getting generous tax relief and taxpayer subsidies to help the less fortunate.

People with health problems should be helped, not rewarded for having them.

ttbn,

"You defended them alright..." Unfortunately senility is also a disability, maybe you should sign up for the NDIS.

Paul

It doesn't take you long to resort to personal abuse. You sometimes show a glimmer of common sense, but you always manage to blow it.

Shame on you for using the awful condition of dementia just to have a go at me.

Given data on the web shows "that
the NDIS continues to have a positive impact on
the lives of participants, their families, and
carers - with recent data highlighting improvements
in areas such as employment and community participation."

Surely then the NDIS is worthy of our support if it
makes such an impact and difference to people's lives?

AC wrote: "I'm willing to bet both my testicles the Chinese don't pay $389.00 for a shower chair"

Me too. Because (and stop me if I mentioned this before) China doesn't have an NDIS scheme and therefore the government doesn't pay ANYTHING for its disabled folk. Dredging up quotes about how they have legislation on disabled people is quite superfluous. I'd venture every nation on earth has such legislation since it costs the government nothing to do so. Its only rich nations who actually care for their less fortunate that have NDIS-style systems and China doesn't fit either of those descriptors even though you might swoon over their government.

I think it takes a particularly small and insular mind to go from the system is being rorted to saying the system has to be abandoned.

The disabled aren't doing the rorting, so they ought not be punished. The rorters need to be found, exposed and severely punished but I doubt government, any government but particularly this one, is up to that job. the system will be much more efficient and equitable when the government extracts itself from the process of running it and just becomes the bank for it.

That'll happen but not until things become much worse.

"Surely then the NDIS is worthy of our support if it
makes such an impact and difference to people's lives?"

Yes it is worthy of our support.

But that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to the spectacular waste that the current processes allow. Remember, every dollar rorted is a dollar less in the hands of the disabled. So support the scheme by trying to make it less of a cash-cow for the unscrupulous.

Hopefully, one day, we'll find a government that does that. Neither the last nor this government are capable of such a thing because they continue to allow the public service to be the conduits for the funds

I'm sure it would operate better out of government hands; or at least away from the supervision of a government minister who has never run a business in his life. Government is the problem.

Why can't the Federal government work together with
states and territories to get the best results for
disabled people. Surely they have enough experienced
staff between them to advise how to achieve the best
results, and get not only the best value for money,
but the best outcomes for the disabled.

Surely they have enough experienced
staff between them to advise how to achieve the best
results, and get not only the best value for money,
but the best outcomes for the disabled.
Foxy,
They rather obviously don't !

"Surely then the NDIS is worthy of our support if it
makes such an impact and difference to people's lives?"

Yes it's a good cause, but not if you spend 40 billion and get about half that amount in benefit. And don't forget that the wastage results in other government services being cut.

It's a mess.

It's a mess.
Fester,
Indeed yet we still have so many opposing a NMNS to teach responsibility to better common mentality !

There is no need for the conservative side of politics to over exaggerate the problem with the NDIS. I suspect like with all social welfare programs the conservatives with their "survival of the fittest" philosophical bent would like to ditch them anyway, or privatise if there is money to be made.

Indy, with his belief that a vast "Boot Camp" for young people would of some magical benefit to society is simply dreaming. The far right believe regimentation brings conformity, and therefore social stability, and that's true to a certain extent, but then they have to "deal" with the fringe of nonconformists, that's when things get messy.

Individual,

What's the NMNS?

Boot Camp

I don't know if this will help, I just read that the
growth rate of the National Disability Insurance
Scheme (NDIS) is - "starting to stabilise according
to the latest Annual Financial Sustainability Report
(AFSR) released last year."

We're told that the "stabilising of growth is being
achieved through considered and targeted reforms -
delivered in partnership with people with disability
and the disability community."

I forgot to add that - we're told in the longer term,
projections are $1.8 billion lower in 2032-33,
compared to Dec. 2022.

What nitwits the people defending NDIS are, given that it is their taxes providing money to rorters.

mhaze,
Ahh, you never stop nitpicking me over facts that don't matter.
Why do you do that, what's wrong with you?
Like some constant one-upmanship that I couldn't give a toss about.
No offense.

I thought this discussion was about 'unreasonable costs of the NDIS system in Australia.
What do whatever the Chinese do in their country have to do with anything?

"I'm willing to bet both my testicles the Chinese don't pay $389.00 for a shower chair"
I didn't say 'chinese government', you nitpicker.

You think the fact that China doesn't have NDIS, doesn't mean that chinese people don't still need to own AND purchase shower chairs?
85 million disabled people, I'm betting they still need shower chairs.
- And I'm stil willing to bet both my testicles the Chinese don't pay $389.00 for a shower chair.

Forget shower chairs, what about wheelchairs?
How much is the local shonky sheister slapping on the cost of a wheelchair?
Buy a container load for $7000 a unit and charge the government $25k a piece for them?

You go through the whole entire government like this, just making it spend the money it collects from others more wisely and there would be tens if not hundreds of billions in savings.

That's my argument, to your concerns about the NDIS costs.

"I think it takes a particularly small and insular mind to go from the system is being rorted to saying the system has to be abandoned.
The disabled aren't doing the rorting, so they ought not be punished."

I never said anything about abandoning the system.
I'm just saying 'try getting better value for every dollar spent'
In truth if you could save on the overpriced goods, you could instead spend that money you saved on upgrading facilitates for example.

Bottom line, you can bet if the money spent was coming out of the POLLIES OWN POCKETS, those cheapskates who can't rort the system enough themselves for their own travel allowances would not see a single dollar wasted needlessly.

And the bucks gotta stop somewhere.
I place the blame on government incompetence.

Foxy asked: "Why can't the Federal government work together with states and territories to get the best results for disabled people."

The answer is the fifth word of your question.

"Ahh, you never stop nitpicking me over facts that don't matter.
Why do you do that, what's wrong with you?"

Translation.... stop pointing out that my inane claims are inane claims and let me make my inane claims unassailed.

"What do whatever the Chinese do in their country have to do with anything?"

Well you're the one who raised the Chinese as exemplars of how to do it right. I've just spent a small amount of time pointing ot that that is an inane claim.

"Facts that don't matter".

That takes the cake.

"starting to stabilise according
to the latest Annual Financial Sustainability Report
(AFSR) released last year."

The AFSR is written by the NDIS itself. So grain of salt time. The NDIS telling us what a great job the NDIS is doing is hardly convincing.

But even taking their own numbers at face-value they say that they got the projections for 2023-34 WRONG by 8% (yeah 8% -wow!) so why would would be put the slightest faith in what they say about the projections for 10 years out when they are so bad at their projections for one year out.

Most worrying for the nation is that they think that the cost of the NDIS will go from 1.61% of GDP in 2023 to 2.33% of GDP by 2033. Either we are going to have a lot more disabled folk or the costs are going to explode. (Remember the GDP is projected to increase by around 20% in that period so they expect to spend a much higher portion of a much higher pool of funds). And that is supposed to be comforting.

That's why I say things will get much worse and only then will things change.

Thanks Paul. I suspect the belief that the world is going to Hell goes back a long way.

Australia became one of the original state signatories
to the UN's Convention on the Rights of Persons with
Disabilities in 2007.

So much controversy has arisen. On the one side we have
those who tell us how NDIS has changed people's lives.
On the other critics tell us that the NDIS is unaffordable.
That rorting goes on and so many other negative things.
It's bureaucracy sucks, and the list goes on.

I guess that higher participation in the scheme than
originally expected has increased the scheme costs.
As has the fact that some mainstream services have
discontinued or fail to maintain their services -
forcing people with disability to look elsewhere for
their support.

We're told that for every dollar spent, $2.25 is created
in value for the economy. We're told that as NDIS costs
increase so do the economic benefits.

Any how - there's more at the following:

http://unsw.edu.au/newsroom/news/2023/06/ndis-a-decade-on-where-to-from-here

"We're told that for every dollar spent, $2.25 is created in value for the economy."

Oh well in that case, let's spend a trillion dollars on the NDIS and get two trillion dollars benefit. No, 10 ten trillion to make 20 trillion. We'll all be rich!

Struth. That some fall for this.....

It used to be called voodoo economics - now its public policy!

BTW the link that purports to prove the $2.25 figure has been taken down. We can only guess why but my theory is that it was rubbish.

I wonder if the $2.1 billion rorted from the system also generates $4.7 billion (2.1 x2.25) in "value for the economy." We might have found the secret to national wealth. Allow corruption on a grand scale to generate economic wealth. You couldn't make this stuff up.

mhaze,

Please read the link I gave. It explains costs.

BTW:

Tact is the art of making a point without making an
enemy.

Keep that in mind for future reference if you want
people to join in your discussions.

Foxy wrote: "Please read the link I gave. It explains costs."

I did.
It doesn't.

And that's beside the point because I was talking about the $2.25 multiplier effect claim, not the costs. D'ya need me to mansplain the difference?

Did you bother to look into the $2.25 claim or did you just take their word for it? Hint: They have no evidence for that claim.

"Tact is the art of making a point without making an enemy."

There's essentially no way to point out your errors without you getting in a huff.

What's the NMNS?
Fester,
Non Military National Service. Paul1405 thinks of it (wrongly of course) as a boot camp. What it should & would do is to expose those young who walk the streets aimlessly to some belonging & discipline & responsibility. It would be for those who have no employment & no home to go to . Also those who need guidance to life that offers them a future rather than just shows them the path to Centrelink. They would be housed & fed & receive the unemployment benefits they get now but with the added benefit of becoming members of society rather than loners in a dog eat dog situation. Youth crime would literally disappear overnight because they simply wouldn't be on the streets. Councils Australia-wide should be required to co-operate by providing basic accommodation & provide basic work experience. It's not a perfect scheme but a hell of a lot better than what we have now. Councils should also provide basic functions such as an employment agency for those who want to & can enter the workforce proper. All that is needed is to provide young people who need a start to be given a start. It'll probably work out less costly & boost local economies better than what is happening now. Any jobs, no matter how basic that can be done by untrained people would offer a start for many. It could be done as a gap year service. It would be a very small sacrifice to do something for the country that keeps you & a character building exercise for the start to adulthood. My guess is that most would appreciate such a scheme very quickly once the benefits of belonging become obvious. Spend the available funds on these young people who can help build a better society instead of on the bureaucracy that divides society !

mhaze,

There is a fundamental principal in economics known as the Law of Diminishing Returns. The models and infrastructure on which the $2.25 figure is derived would almost certainly not see the any returns at a spending rate of $10 trillion a year, but that doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t see a return when $50 billion is spent.

The data linked to in the article Foxy cited was not retracted, as you suggest, and can still be accessed on Lexis Nexus:

http://capitalmonitor.com.au/Display.aspx?TempLock=AkvTrqiTgNsdsXCgTMK7/WQAc53hKFzO+wx1+VaFYUk=&

For those who don’t have a Lexis Nexus account, the studies from which the figure was derived are referenced in Appendix 1 of the report found at:

http://teamwork.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Per_Capita_Report_teamworks.pdf

Hi John Daysh,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the information.

I don't know if the following link helps add to your comments
but here it is:

http://percapita.org.au/our_work/false-economy-the-economic-benefits-of-the-ndis-and-the-consequences-of-government-cost-cutting/#:

the rot and rorting occurred over the last 10 years when it just so happened to be under the watchful stewardship of the LNP coalition government.
Aries54,
No-one I know blames the Govt for bureaucrat corruption & incompetence. As you'd be well aware the greater number of bureaucrats are Labor supporters so, blaming Govt for what you lot are doing is what's sick, not us here !

John Daysh,

Yes, when I said 10 trillion I was being facetious - perhaps I should have gone with my usual 'bazillion-gazillion'. I wasn't seriously suggesting $10 trillion was on the table!

The pint was to show that these multiplier numbers don't apply at all levels and we can't just say that its OK to ignore the cost because we get it back manyfold.

Equally, even if the multiplier number was valid, I assume no one asserts it also applies to the $2 billion plus rorted from the system.

As to the multiplier number itself, I wasn't suggesting it had been withdrawn, simply pointing out that the link used to support the article Foxy had relied on now returned a '404' which raised a series of questions.

OK... the rationale behind the number is available to the cognoscente.

So...
The link you provided was dated 2021. I note that the calculation for the multiplier, such as it is, relies on the " recent trends of low, zero or effectively negative government borrowing rates" to favour the higher rather than lower ranges. That may have been true, or at least defendable, in 2021, but no longer applies. Government borrowing costs are no longer effectively zero.

Looking at the multiplier assertions, numbers mentioned in the article from Furceri and Zdzienicka (2010) of 0.9, which were rejected because of the low borrowing costs are now much more likely to be right. At the very least the rationale behind the claim that the multiplier is 2.25 no longer applies.

I note also, as with most of these advocacy style calculations, that there is no discussion of opportunity costs. That is, while the multiplier might be greater than 1 that doesn't mean the lost opportunities of the 'investment' aren't greater. Investing at 1% is profitable but looks silly if a 2% rate is available.

None of which is to say that the NDIS shouldn't be funded, just that claims that it pays for itself are dubious. It is valuable in humanitarian terms, not financial terms.

And the rorted portion are a detriment in any terms

As long as integrity is not part of the selection process in bureaucracy nothing can improve !
That includes the Peter Principle.

"The concept of NDIS is great. The implementation and
delivery needs to be improved."

La Trobe University asked NDIS participants how to fix it:

http://latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/we-asked-ndis-participants-how-to-fix-it

"Well you're the one who raised the Chinese as exemplars of how to do it right. I've just spent a small amount of time pointing out that that is an inane claim."

They are doing something right, that's why they're winning.
And at the heart of the issue, that $778 shower chair encompasses everything that's wrong.

The Chinese have a population of what 1.3 billion.
Our nation is 25 million.

Can you even comprehend the logistics involved in governing 1.3 billion people?
85 million people with disabilities?
The entire population of Australia. times 3 and then some?

"Over the past decade 7.1 million people with disabilities in rural areas have been lifted out of absolute poverty"
- Is this not a step in the right direction from a country that one might still consider to be a developing nation, over that period?

It's probably only a matter of time before everything they do is superior to the West.
Not because they are smarter, but because we are dumber.

Indyvidual,

Thanks for the explanation. It's certainly very useful in Israel, but in Australia it could be like the NDIS: A well intentioned idea that is poorly managed, takes large amounts of money from other services with its wastage, and ultimately achieves little.

As for saying that it's okay to waste government money because of all the economic activity it generates, then that would explain the complete lack of concern about expenditure with the current cultist regime.

The latest piece of Albanese nonsense is the sending of Bill Shorten - who can't get a handle on his own NDIS portfolio - off to peace talks about about Ukraine. What gives these bozos the idea that a man who can't do his own job can contribute anything to international affairs.

Wasn't Tony Abbott sent as an adviser to the UK?

"Wasn't Tony Abbott sent as an adviser to the UK?"

Not quite. He was employed, or at least appointed, as a trade advisor by the UK government itself - not sent by Australia.

As to Shorten, we have to send someone to these gabfests just so we can pretend to be relevant. And getting him out of the country, even for a short(en!) period, has got to be a benefit....to us.

Hmmmmmm.

How did Tony Abbott, a controversial and often
unpopular PM of Australia from 2013 until he was ousted
by the Liberal Party colleagues in 2015 get the job as
UK Trade adviser?

His appointment apparently attracted anger and concern.

Who recommended him for the job?

There is no relevance to Tony Abbott's employment by the UK, and the Australian government pushing its man, Shorten, onto a international conference on something he has no expertise in.

As usual, the chattering Left has no response, and just blurts out some nonsense about a person not connected to the topic, not a government stooge, and freely head-hunted by an employer in the form of the British government.

Bill Shorten is the only villain in this discussion. A pity really, as he seems not to be a bad bloke, has always conducted himself with dignity and sincerity, unlike his replacement, a total disaster who palms off everything onto to his ministers and dodges the responsibilities of leadership.

There is relevance on Tony Abbott's appointment as
Trade Adviser to the UK.

His appointment attracted controversies in both countries.

It came as a time when Australia and post Brexit Britain
were negotiating a free-trade agreement.

Australia introduced the "foreign influence transparency Scheme"
in 2016 along with a series of measures aimed at toughening up
the country's foreign interference and espionage laws."

And that Abbott's appointment comes at a time when Australia
and post-Brexit Britain were negotiating a free-trade
agreement - was relevant.

Abbott was appointed by the UK government of Boris Johnson. It had precisely nothing to do with Australia or the Australian government although for some wanting to be so is the same as it being so.

He was appointed because the UK was going to be involved in a series of trade negotiations following Brexit and they were looking for experience and expertise in such things. Abbott had been involved in previous trade negotiations on Australia's behalf with the EU, USA and Japan. Valuable expertise indeed.

Additionally the UK government saw someone who shared their values....
"Explaining Mr Abbott’s appointment, one Department for International Trade official said: “Tony was chosen partly because he believes in Britain’s values — of open markets, liberal democracy, and rules-based free trade.”"

Their gain - our loss. (now that'll trigger the usual dills).

Many British "dill" politicians disagreed with the
appointment and listed Abbott's lack of qualifications
and inexperience, including values, on every level.

Depends who you listen to.

Kudos mhaze.

"Many British "dill" politicians disagreed with the
appointment "

Oh wow. Those people who were opposed to the Boris Johnson government also opposed his various decisions. Colour me convinced!!

I'd venture, the only person on planet surprised by this is the easily surprised Foxy.

mhaze,

British values?

If one considers British values to be the ones that
Tony Abbott supports - then his appointment of course
makes sense. However many British and Australians
do not agree . Hence the controversies.

mhaze,

Critics said that Abbott's views on women, homosexuality,
the climate crisis, made him unfit for the role. Botis
Johnson defied widespread condemnation of the former
PM's misogyny and homophobia and his views on climate.
Abbott's appointment came at a time when Australia and
post-Brexit Britain were negotiating a free-trade
agreement.

Perhaps Johnson thought Abbott's appointment would help
Britain in negotiations? Who knows?

Me surprised?

Nah. Not in this case - considering Johnson's own record.

mhaze,

I've just found something you wrote on another discussion
that I have left.

You wrote:

"Foxy thinks that anyone who disagrees with her or more
precisely that she disagrees with is being negative."

"I'm positive she's wrong."

I'll take up the gauntlet.

You are the one who is wrong.

The negative people that were being referred to are those who:

1) Have the tendency to imbue negative motivations to the
innocent actions of others.

2) They are people who put pressure on others to act in a
certain way.

3) They have a tendency to believe that the future is bleak -
that any activity, or event will go badly.

4) That any discussion topic raised by people they don't
agree with is worthless and stupid.

5) They deride others who don't conform to their way of
thinking.

6) They live in the past rather than opening their minds
to the range of possibilities available.

9) Rarely able to see the good in others.

10) They have a tendency to assign labels to people.

And so on.

Others start avoiding them after a series of less than
joyful experiences.

Psychologists explain that children raised in an
environment where criticism, pessimism, doom and gloom and
negativity were common will end up having that mapped out in
their developing brains as typical, normal behaviour.

In adulthood it becomes a habit.

"Psychologists explain that children raised in an
environment where criticism, pessimism, doom and gloom and
negativity were common will end up having that mapped out in
their developing brains as typical, normal behaviour."

That strikes me as a rather negative view of things. Try to perk up.

mhaze,

Psychologists present information from human
behavioural studies. Their research enables them
to separate fact from simple opinion.

mhaze

You seem to have allowed yourself to be lured into a discussion on Tony Abbott, who had nothing whatsoever to do with your subject, the NDIS.

ttbn,

No. The NDIS discussion had run its course. I made my point; the usual suspects cried that they didn't want it to be so even though it was; I showed that it was so and they fell silent. All very standard course of events on this site.

Then the Abbott thing came up which I thought I'd follow up on. One of the long term themes I follow is that the overthrow of Abbott by the despicable Turnbull was a disaster for this nation for which we continue to pay the price. Just another chance to reinforce that.

Threads have a tendency to follow their own uncharted course. I see no problem with that.

Abbott is often ranked in the lower tier of
Australian Prime Ministers.

"Abbott is often ranked in the lower tier of
Australian Prime Ministers."

And often not.

But I don't care how OTHERS rank him. I prefer to think for myself.

mhaze,

Trump supporters thinking for themselves?

I hope the next leader puts a stop to the economic and environmental train wreck of renewable energy. SA currently 11% wind and solar, 80% gas and 200mw imported from Victoria. What a mess!

https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem

Australia needs an energy grid that works, not a trillion dollar wind and solar con job.

Trump supporters thinking for themselves?

Yep....you should try it some time.

You know the idea of deciding the quality of a leader based on actual facts rather than some league table designed by someone else of unknown bias.

You know...thinking for yourself.

mhaze,

The quality of a leader?

And you talk about Trump?

Sorry, I can't take that seriously.

See ya.

"And you talk about Trump?

Sorry, I can't take that seriously."

Yeah you never did understand the Trump revolution, did you? I can't blame you...it was quote complex and required independent thinking.

Still I do wonder why you favour the candidate of the rich and privileged over the candidate of the poor and disadvantaged. I guess that's another thing that requires independent thinking rather than fictitious league tables,

mhaze,

You have no idea about me.

And frankly, I'm no longer interested in you.

Cheers.

It is said that there are three things certain in life...birth death and taxes.

I think we can add a fourth - whenever Foxy finds herself faced by uncomfortable issues, she decrees she doesn't want to talk any more.

mhaze,

Nah. she justs loses interest when she sees its pointless.

Foxy is simply a typical Leftie who leaves when truth & fact gets in the way !

Indyvidual,

Foxy is not typical.

She's unique and awesome!

You're welcome.

Foxy,
Cheers for proving me right !

I spoke to my friend who is a NDIS carer this morning.
She said her 9 year old client punched her in the face yesterday and she's not sure if she will get a black eye, probably not, but still.

I find this whole entire subject conflicting to be honest.
These NDIS carers are subjected to the type of treatment that would not be accepted in any other profession under any conditions.

That in order for these NDIS patients to be cared for;
Someone else has to be put in the firing line and physical abuse and sexual harassment on a routine basis.

I asked her if most of the carers are predominately women, and she said yes.
And I said we go and put the weaker sex on the front line to try and manage these people.
I said it might not be so bad if it was a physically strong male, when these disabled people get out of control.
And she said that she has no idea what would happen if her 9 year old client was 18.
She said he comes at her sometimes crazy with clenched teeth.

So I'm conflicted.
I'm not sure it's right to force someone to be subjected to abuse
- In order to 'care' for someone else.

Hi AC,

Caring for someone elderly, or with a disability is a
choice. And of course to be abused is never OK. However,
people are trained for the job - and abuse can work
both ways. How many carers are also abusers? It's
not an easy situation to be in but thankfully people
who do these jobs whether privately or in institutions
manage to deal with difficult situations. If they can't
they usually ask for and get help.

Help is available.

Indyvidual,

I was born an original, not a copy.

I don't have to prove anything to you.