A libitariarian is someone driving down the road claiming to be an individual, while cursing the 'Gubberment' for not fixing the potholes.

They wanted all the services while contributing nothing, because 'the gubberment' is the enemy.

But I haven't heard so much about these crazies lately.

Do the still exist?

Does this include the 'Civil libertarians' of Qld's Terry O'Gorman ? He once told me couldn't help me re legal aid after a robbery by so-called indigenous as "Sorry can't help you, we're batting for the other team" !

You haven’t thought this one out.

Libertarians are currently on display in huge numbers presenting as pro Hamas cheer squads on University Campuses throughout the West, including Australia.

They also present themselves as the Chameleons they are, as Anthony Albanese and Penny Wong for example. At heart they are anarchistic, and deplore the Western society values they are elected to uphold. Traitors.

Rethink it!

Random completely misunderstands Libertarianism and then proclaims that his fantasy libertarian doesn't exist. Well, that's true because the 'libertarian' he describes never existed.

Libertarianism is the philosophy that individual freedom is the paramount political value and that coercion is the antithesis of that freedom. Libertarians don't consider the government to be the enemy, just big, ever expanding government. We aren't opposed to taxation, just opposed to taxation in excess of that required for the government to perform its primary functions ie national defence, protecting civil liberties and property rights, protecting and projecting freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Libertarians drive down government provided roads because they're there. But we recognise that they would still be there if the government got outta the way and left it to individuals to do. Roads were provided and existed long before government decided it was their function and established a coercive monopoly of their provision.

Yes, we libertarians still exist. We have always existed and will always exist. Even when Winston Smith was required to believe 2 + 2 =5 , he knew in his heart that it was a falsehood even as we know that the claims that government needs to insert itself into every human issue is a falsehood.

OTOH, it is also true that there is a class of people who feel much more comfortable outsourcing their thinking and decision-making. For them, liberty is the freedom to do as their told.

Random is the bloke who thinks that everyone who doesn't think the way he does hasn't been to university and is 'blue collar'. They are also 'white men', of course, and he isn't aware that the ALP spells Labor without the "u".

He has also described OLO as a "crap" site.

I suspect that he is a non-white foreigner who has never been to Australia, and carries a massive chip on his shoulder.

As he has already been told, he wouldn't know a libertarian from a hole in the ground; nor his arse from his elbow.

mhaze

I think the most stable description of Libertarianism centres around the theme of anarchism.

Especially since the description covers left and right think; but usually falling into the extremes of ideology at the fringes.

So to be a Libertarian is really not an accurate description to be placed on any Political standbtaken by the individual or his preferred group.

Thoughts.

I'd observe that things tend to get horrible when taken to extremes, like anarchy, Socialism, Fascism, religious cults, doomsday cults (like the global warming cult pushing renewable energy), the anti-nuclear movement, alternative medicine etc. To the extent that libertarianism reacts against the push to extremes I think it a good thing. Defeating the Voice and opposing the misinformation bill are current examples of libertarianism.

There are certainly a lot of libertarians around - one is now president of Argentina, unlikely as that might have seemed even a couple of years ago. And he has started to turn things around. Removing rent caps for example caused rents to fall 20% as rental properties came back on the market.

If you are in Queensland you might be interested in one of Australia's more prominent libertarians, Ron Manners, who is launching his latest book - The Impatient Libertarian. The link to book is http://impatient_libertarian.eventbrite.com.au. And if you think Libertarianism, or classical liberalism, is crap, you'd be even more welcome to come and try your lines out.

Hi Random,

Do Libertarians still exist?

I don't know of many. David Leyonhjelm comes to mind as
possibly so does James Paterson.

I'm not sure how well Libertarianism is acceptable in
Australia. I don't think it's for everyone. Most
politicians I think are unable to get away from their
impulse to rule other people's lives.

In any case for society to work there must be enforced
minimum standards of behavior and co-operation.

As someone pointed out on the web:

"We don't allow people to set up toxic waste dumps (or asbestos)
in suburban neighbourhoods. W put fences at the tops of cliffs
rather than station ambulances at the bottom." It's also
safer and cheaper.

I like this quote:

"Libertarianism assumes that everybody will be nice and
reasonable. Communism assumes that everyone will be nice and
share. Neither can be counted upon."

We all basically want safety nets. If you're poor - you
don't want to die in the street. And if you can't afford
vital medication - you want the government's help to save
your life.

"I think the most stable description of Libertarianism centres around the theme of anarchism."

Libertarianism isn't anarchism. Libertarians don't want to do away with government, just reduce it to its core functions.

Its important to note that there is no such thing as an overriding definition of libertarianism. There is a spectrum, a wide spectrum. Indeed since the core value of the libertarian is individualism, it might be said there are as many different versions of libertarianism as there are libertarians.

Fester is right in that libertarianism abhors extremism. But not as a political enemy but simply because individuals, left to their own devices and conscience, will gravitate away from extremism. Extremist movements are indeed movements - groups of people predisposed to follow others and orders who fall in with a cadre of driven leaders.

Of course, not everything is great questions of civilisation and state. Relative minor issues divide the libertarian from the rest. We saw in the great pandemic panic that large numbers of Australians were anxious to be lead to safety by others making decisions for them and then seeking to force others to do likewise. This is anathema to the true libertarian.

Random is the bloke who thinks that everyone who doesn't think the way he does hasn't been to university and is 'blue collar'. They are also 'white men', of course, and he isn't aware that the ALP spells Labor without the "u".

He has also described OLO as a "crap" site.

Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 9 May 2024 7:36:40 AM

This software is the worst I have ever encountered, no doubt about it. The content is ... well, lets say that if the software was upgraded and the old threads lost, Australia would be the better for it.

It is true that most Right Wing Nut Jobs (RWNJ's) did not finish high school. Make of that what you will. They always old white men, coloured versions have more empathy, look it up, it has something to do with consideration of others.

consideration of others.
Random,
I have yet to meet a Leftist who has the mentality to understand that. It'd be a miracle if one did out of the myriad of me, me entitlement mutts !

Hi Random,

Do Libertarians really want to gut what remains of
the welfare state? Do they really want to give free
reign to hate speech and tilt industrial relations
balance in favour of employers?

It's somewhat confusing when you hear people like Senator James
Paterson and others speak and voice their opinions on being
pro-euthanaisa (people's right of dieing with dignity).
That they often support same-sex marriage and are even
relaxed about weed.

Then along comes Leyonhjelm who exemplifies a form of
politics that thrives in parts of provincial Australia.
I know - I have family members that I have difficulty
talking to on certain issues. They thrive on Canberra
bashing and are committed to their views that they feel
gives them unique insights - especially about the
Indigenous people.

You get this display of mindsets found in the rank and file
of the IPA and the letters pages of The Australian.

These attitudes unfortunately cannot be considered to
be allies of "progressives," because that is what the
"progressives" exist to fight against.

What if we could find a way to work together?

Wouldn't it be great?

What if we had leaders who were willing to consult and
be inclusive - and left politics to one side, as well
as point-scoring?

I guess we can live and hope.

Who was it who said - "Miracles Do Happen."

But then someone also said - "Life Wasn't Meant To Be Easy."

Life always gives you a second chance. It's called -
tomorrow.

I am optimistic about tomorrow. I have to be for the sake of my
grand-children.

"It is true that most Right Wing Nut Jobs (RWNJ's) did not finish high school. Make of that what you will. "

OK.

What I make of it is that Random is someone who just makes stuff up. I'll guarantee he hasn't got anything even vaguely resembling data that supports his claim.

What I make of it is that Random is someone who just makes stuff up. I'll guarantee he hasn't got anything even vaguely resembling data that supports his claim.
Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 9 May 2024 1:50:32 PM

But I do. Everytime I meet someone who, by opening their mouth, shows that they are Climate Change Deniers, two things come with that ...

1. They hate the Labour party, even thought they were blue collar.
2. They either did not finish high school and if they did scrap through, did not do any further study.

Everytime I tell you!

But don't just listen to me ...

‘Education’ is why federal voting patterns are changing

Ross Gittins

Economics Editor
June 13, 2022 — 5.00am

"Take climate change. The better educated you are, the more likely you are to accept the science, believe we should be acting, and not be worried about either losing your job in the mine or paying a bit more for power."

"But I do. Everytime I meet someone who, by opening their mouth, shows that they are Climate Change Deniers, two things come with that ...'

Like I said, nothing even approaching data. Personal anecdote, even made up personal anecdote, isn't data.

BTW, I'm what you'd call a climate denier, voted Labor and have a degree. Oops!

Can't help but notice that the moment Random's idiotic claims about libertarianism were challenged, he ran for cover. Not the brightest tool in the shed.

BTW, whatever happened to Mr Opinion?

Libertarians drive down government provided roads because they're there. But we recognise that they would still be there if the government got outta the way and left it to individuals to do. Roads were provided and existed long before government decided it was their function and established a coercive monopoly of their provision.

Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 9 May 2024 7:24:44 AM

Maaate, you are one seriously deluded puppy, but the fishing is easy here, caught you with one cast. You are one of the chattering masses who was playing hooky the day they discussed critical thinking.

People with your views should be free to have them, but you are embarassing yourself expressing those crazy illogical views in a public forum.

Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 9 May 2024 7:24:44 AM
"But we recognise that they would still be there if the government got outta the way and left it to individuals to do. Roads were provided and existed long before government decided it was their function and established a coercive monopoly of their provision."

1. Do you know about the Global Financial Crisis? Who bailed out all those evil greedy Individuals?

2. I worked roads for 24 years and 8 months, at the end of that time road construction was contracted out to private companies.

That you have so much wrong in just one post tires me out. But then facts are not something that a climate change denier understands.

I'm calling bullshite on both the Labour vote and the degree. A real Libitarian casts a donkey vote or not the socialists, and anyone with a degree would not be capable of assembling the post I am responding to. It's a struggling sixth grade effort at best.

But let's have some more, just keep the number of fails in any one post lower please.

Climate change and the strange death of libertarianism

by John Q on January 18, 2020

It wasn’t that long ago that everyone was talking about the “libertarian moment” in the US. Now, libertarianism/propertarianism is pretty much dead.

https://crookedtimber.org/2020/01/18/climate-change-and-the-strange-death-of-libertarianism/

"Who bailed out all those evil greedy Individuals?"

So you think big government bailing out big business for problems caused by big government is a reason in favour of big government? A bigger dill than I thought.

I had a policy of just ignoring Mr Opinion because he was incapable of sustaining a logical thread of discussion and thought valid argument involved throwing inane comments at all who made him look the fool.

Same here. Indeed, pretty sure its the same dill.

Be careful of those from the far right extreme like David Leyonhjelm a convicted defamer, who believes "free speech" is a right to attack others. History is littered with haters who spoke incessantly in the name of "free speech", and exalted others to do likewise, as long as their speech totally agreed with them, Hitler and Mussolini are a couple of prime examples, can add Leyonhjelm to the list.

I was wondering whether I am a libertarian. I have no answer.

I believe in the individual's freedom from society,
that anyone who so wishes should be able to live their life without resort to society and its institutions,
that membership in all societies should be voluntary,
that any forcing of people into societies is an unacceptable form of violence.

But once one has freely made an informed choice to belong to a society, then there are no limits as to how that society operates internally.
A freely-entered society may involve just a small chunk of its members' lives (the liberal/libertarian view), their whole lives (the socialist/communist/fascist view), or anything in between - all in accordance with its constitution which all its members presumably agreed to.

BUT IN THE ABSENCE OF FREELY-ENTERED SOCIETIES:

* The only morally-legitimate "right" of a society is the self-defence of its individual members against whatever dangers they authorised their society to defend them from (and provided that to begin with it was morally-legitimate for the individuals in question to defend themselves against these "dangers").

* Should a society provide certain benefits and members freely choose to accept these benefits, then that society may legitimately impose conditions in return.

So if a society prints money and members (including those who are involuntarily included, which in itself is wrong) choose to accept and use that money, then they must not complain about taxation and welfare, including about their high levels.

While I stand for individual freedom and believe that people should be able to conduct their life without reference to the state, its institutions or its money, that people should not even be obliged to have a name or register their birth with the state, I believe that for those who choose to use the state's money regardless (including foreign currency by force of international agreements, when present) there is nothing wrong with high taxation and levels of welfare - and this, I think, greatly differs from the traditional libertarian view.

I believe in the individual's freedom from society,
Yuyutsu,
I take you then also believe in society's freedom from individuals ?

Dear Indyvidual,

«I take you then also believe in society's freedom from individuals ?»

Society inherits its powers from the individuals it is comprised of:
it may aggregate these powers, but not create new ones out of thin air,
thus the question comes down to whether or not the individuals that the society is comprised of are morally allowed to make themselves free of other individuals [which they do not like].

In my view, it is acceptable to act in self defence to rid oneself of dangerous enemies, but not to rid of others just for the sake of comfort and fulfilling one's ambitions and desires.

but not to rid of others just for the sake of comfort and fulfilling one's ambitions and desires.
Yuyutsu,
Either I was just unlucky or maybe I take more notice than others but my personal experiences are that Labor/Left supporters are generally far more greedy than any other group. Hence the powers the unions got to after they did good work in the early day.
That doesn't imply that all Labor supporters are like that, only the majority !

This blow-in bozo is still mis-spelling ‘Labor’. He needs to ‘Labour’ more to overcome his spelling and his English in general: his writing resembles a shopping list.

Random appears to be unaccustomed to people disagreeing with him, which makes his childish rantings even more incoherent. He is keen on “education”, but does not appear to have any himself - particularly in English expression. He doesn't know the difference between ‘education’ and ‘wisdom’. He doesn't know that the standard of what he thinks is education has been plummeting for years. He doesn't know much at all.

Education can mean anything from actually learning useful skills to being brainwashed into believing the garbage taught to you: evidenced in the form of junk degrees and woke no-hopers coming out of modern universities.

As for Random's libertarian yabber - well, he fails again. Libertarians are allergic to all but the faintest government touch. He is totally bereft of any useful education; he is a spoiled brat; he has insulted his host (comments about a “crap” site); he is a naif trying out his nonsense, and he will soon disappear. Meanwhile, he has stretched my boredom tolerance to its limit.

I generally sway more towards a conservative point of view, because I find myself more opposed to the ideology of woke progressives, but I have a few issues with conservatives as well on a few issues they support.

I think my political philosophy is neither left or right, (not with these morons anyway) but better defined as 'the war on stupid'.

"Education can mean anything from actually learning useful skills to being brainwashed into believing the garbage taught to you: evidenced in the form of junk degrees and woke no-hopers coming out of modern universities."

- Said it better than I could ttbn.
I have doubts about whether intellectuals actually have any more common sense than anyone else, even after years of extra training and study.

'the war on stupid '
Armchair Critic,
Since stupidity is now actually taught. it has overtaken ignorance & it will be one hell of a task to slow that trend & get back on track. We now have intelligent people whose God-given ability to think has been successfully hijacked into reverse yet they & the many unfortunate with very little grey matter to start with make up the majority in the by them much hyped Democracies.
This Nation got caught up in that whirlwind during the Whitlam years & went full steam ahead since.
We must find a way to harness common sense asap ! A NMNS is the only hope at this stage.

Hi AC,

"I (AC) have doubts about whether intellectuals actually have any more common sense than anyone else,"

I doubt they would. Have to define "common sense"; The ability to apply rational and sound judgement when confronted with an everyday problem. A doctor has great ability in medicine, but most likely totally useless as a plumber. A burst water pipe in the doctors front yard would tell him to turn off the valve at the meter, common sense, should he try instead to wrap a blanket around the burst pipe, that's lacking common sense, as there are easily foreseeable ramification with that action. A plumber can repair the leak, that's ability. Common sense is separate from ability in a specialised field. Although most educated people can rationalise a problem better in general, than an uneducated person can. Most of use lose common sense when we allow emotions to get in the way, like some old bloke being conned repeatedly by a "femme fatale" on the internet.

Then there are those who think there is some noble virtue in their own dumbness, and in the dumbness in those like themselves. They hate educated people with ability, being something they lack.

Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 11 May 2024 5:11:55 PM
Then there are those who think there is some noble virtue in their own dumbness, and in the dumbness in those like themselves. They hate educated people with ability, being something they lack.

Very well said. That is the problem here, with most of the RW posters.

Hi Random,

I'm not sure why some people are anti-education.
After all don't we continue to learn things
throughout our lives? Plus there's also all
kinds of "education," from practical hands-on
methods in the trades and sciences, to
the humanities. Also talent plays a part in
them all.

My parents instilled in all of their children
the importance of education. I guess it's probably
because they lost so much during the war and they
felt that learning skills - no one could take
away.

As for Libertarians?

I've come up with a few more names:

Rupert Murdoch.
Gerard Henderson.
James Paterson.
Richard Neville.
And possibly - Julian Assange.

I'm not sure why some people are anti-education.
Foxy,
No sane people are against education only the educated !

Indyvidual,

With all due respect - your posts don't make sense.

your posts don't make sense.
Foxy, I'm aware that you don't get the gist, my posts are for non-indoctrinated people who don't use filters.

Indyvidual,

With all due respect - your posts don't make sense.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 12 May 2024 1:04:26 PM

He is one of the least educated here. He hates it that he's dumb. Poor bastard.

Random,
Cheers for proving me right !

Random & Foxy,
You've fallen into the trap of believing that by going to UNI you're automatically fully aware.

"And possibly - Julian Assange."

For a libertarian old Jules doesn't have much to say about authoritarian regimes. In the case of Russia I believe his lack of comment is due to his not speaking Russian, and my guess is that his Mandarin, Korean and Farsi aren't too hot either.

But he did make a few criticisms of the Ecuadorian government while he was hiding in their embassy. One thing led to another and old Jules decided to assert his intellectual superiority by wiping his poo on the walls of his lodgings, after which his landlords decided that a good flush was in order. Unfortunately his Gandalf disguise did not help him evade the arresting officers.

Libitarians are just Right Wing extremists who do not have the guts to admit it.

They are the mythical 'Swing Voters' who when it comes to the privacy of the voting booth, would vote for Trump if he were on the ballot.

Random & Foxy,
You've fallen into the trap of believing that by going to UNI you're automatically fully aware.
Posted by Indyvidual, Sunday, 12 May 2024 6:54:29 PM

There is no trap. You haven't been there so what the farc would you know?

I feel sorry for you.

Hi Foxy,
"With all due respect - your posts don't make sense."
- It did make sense, but you missed the point, it flew right over your head.
I saw where Indy was going in his first comment.
There's a keyword in his following comment that confirmed it.

I believe he was saying:
'The educated are not the educated, they are the indoctrinated'
And given the emphasis on DEI like a modern day religion, I'd say his argument has validity.

I believe he was saying:
'The educated are not the educated, they are the indoctrinated'
And given the emphasis on DEI like a modern day religion, I'd say his argument has validity.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Sunday, 12 May 2024 11:07:18 PM

First there was an attack on science, but selectively, an attack on climate science. Now this is an attack on teaching of science by people who do not know what it really is.

This forum is populated mostly by right wingers who didn't finish high school. They can't even work out the consequences of their loopy populist ideas inserted into their heads by people who did go to universtity, hired by companies with a vested interest in the chattering masses having those 'beliefs' regardless of the science.

You haven't been there so what the farc would you know?
Random,
I have worked with enough "educated" mutts to know one when one replies to me. Just attending some event isn't the same as having the sense to part of the show.

Hi AC,

It's easier to indoctrinate the uneducated.

It's easier to indoctrinate the uneducated.
Foxy,
Not being educated blesses many with common sense. Being educated denies common sense.
Don't believe me ? Read your posts !

Hi Random,

"First there was an attack on science, but selectively, an attack on climate science. Now this is an attack on teaching of science by people who do not know what it really is."

I've got no problems attacking climate scientists, especially if they suggest I eat mealworms and crickets again.
No offense but some of these people stay in their labs so long they become Joseph Meglers, so focused on what they're doing that they've lost touch with reality and present a danger to those around them.

I was always a bit of a doubter.
Wild claims about sea level rises and that we'd all be underwater decades ago.
But I do see examples of drought, and wonder if largely populated regions will struggle to find the water they need.
Even Australia is a net importer of water, if the world is in such terrible peril, then why the hell are we bringing in a million immigrants a year?
Why do we hear about 'growth targets'

It's like there's 2 competing narratives.

My position towards climate and environmentalism, is that I'm happy to support things that are better for the environment, but I won't support cutting our noses off to spite our faces.

I also think that prior to the demise of industrial manufacturing, the dominant voice of Australia was the blue collar worker, we'll they're gone now, and it has elevated the white coats to the top spot.

So there seems to be this greater emphasis on everyone bowing down to the university voice, and well - we've all seen them glue themselves to the roads, so they cant be all that intelligent.

Foxy,
It takes a lot of very little common sense to not realise the difference between an academic & someone who started learning after Uni.

[Cont.]
As for members of the forum...

"This forum is populated mostly by right wingers who didn't finish high school. They can't even work out the consequences of their loopy populist ideas inserted into their heads by people who did go to universtity, hired by companies with a vested interest in the chattering masses having those 'beliefs' regardless of the science."

I don't know about other commenters level of education.
What I do know is that many are older Australians.
Most come from a different era, when you could wave the Aussie flag with pride without being accused of being a racist right-wing coloniser.
And these people, well it's true many did not wander the university hallways;
- But many busted their guts working to better this country back in their day.

I was much like you when I first came to the forum, in from the wild west of other places on the internet, looking to make every discussion a battle to fight tooth and nail for, to the extent of abusing others, and I'm still a little that way if pushed.
But at some point I realised I was just being rude to and abusing older people.

You seem like you have some form though Randon, I like your passion and the forum can use some new opinions.

What you'll find, if you stay around long enough, is that you'll likely end up in both agreement and disagreement, with everyone in the forum, at different times and on different topics.

We did have some more intelligent members who would frequently debate the science.
(Not me, above my pay grade)
The sad part about this forum is that often the reason why members stop posting is because they've passed away.
There were some forum members that would've given you a run for your money on the science, but sadly they've stopped posting recently.

It's easier to indoctrinate the uneducated.
Foxy,
Not being educated blesses many with common sense. Being educated denies common sense.
Don't believe me ? Read your posts !
Posted by Indyvidual, Monday, 13 May 2024 10:08:40 AM

Common Sense is just a set of bias's you accululate by the time you are eighteen.

But some 'dumb as' people resent anyone with more "book learnin" than them. That's you.

"It's easier to indoctrinate the uneducated."

I thought university was supposed to be about teaching people how to think critically for themselves.

Its seems from your description it's becoming more of a religious institution.
'You must accept this passage of scripture is correct, because that other passage of scripture says so!'

Good education is designed to teach you how
to seek out knowledge on your own. It teaches
you to think and the better you're able to think
on your own, you'll be less prone to have people
put their thoughts into your head.

Poor education does not teach you to think. You
can have a PhD and still be a gullible idiot.
It's not the quantity of education but the quality
that matters.

Education can help individual's develop critical
thinking skills and the ability to evaluate
information. However we need to remain vigilant
against manipulation and indoctrination
regardless of our educational background.

Good education is designed to teach you how
to seek out knowledge on your own.
Foxy,
Yes, that's how it is supposed to be. Sadly, it isn't like that now as the rise of the Left clearly demonstrates.

Indyvidual,

The rise of the Left?

There's also the rise of the Rights and the rise of
the Greens, and the rise of the Teals, and then
the rise of the "don't cares," and so it goes.
Casting blame on others really doesn't achieve
anything productive. It only causes more division
and the band continues to play on.

Lets be responsible for our own actions instead of
casting blame on others.

Or at least give it a go and see what happens. The old
tactics of finger-pointing no longer work.

The rise of the Left?
Foxy,
Well, where does most of the nonsense plaguing society come from ?

Well, where does most of the nonsense plaguing society come from ?
Posted by Indyvidual, Tuesday, 14 May 2024 1:18:50 PM

Sky News

Hi Random,

That is very unfair of you on Indy, he has worked tirelessly for years on this forum to post nonsense, and I believe his efforts in that regard have been outstanding, and most successful, please give him due credit! I have already got him in favour of my Dads Army Boot Camp, aka Seniors National Service! Ah yes, No Sky News, aka Murdoch Clap Trap, is 'Beat Up' Bolt still a regular on the Evening Garbage masquerading as "news" on No Sky News?

The hosts on Sky news are probably helping the liberals lose votes.
What a sad second-rate lot they are, and about as likeable as Dutton.

Paul1405,
Being so silly without having to try must be a boring challenge for you. The principle of wanting good for society is just utterly lost on you. Stop attending your indoctrination classes !

What a sad second-rate lot they are, and about as likeable as Dutton.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Wednesday, 15 May 2024 1:42:16 AM

I agree, Dutton has "an unelectable head."