“Civilian suffering on a large scale is, by itself, no more a sign of genocide than it is of military disproportion”.

Article 2 of the 1948 UN convention prohibits only the INTENT to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group as such.

Article 2 pertains to Hamas's intention to wipe out Jews for their race and religion. It does NOT pertain to Israel for defending itself.

WW2 - the one that defeated the actually genocidal Nazis, saw allied bombers killing around 350,000 German civilians. 70,000 French civilians were killed, 30,000 in the Normandy campaign alone.

In Italy, old men, women and children suffered “grievously” from allied bombing. Not deliberately, but to achieve victory over the ‘evil Axis’ which if not defeated, would have caused a lot more deaths, taken away the freedoms the free world was defending.

Contrary to the rules, Hamas DELIBERATELY targeted IsraelI civilians.

Israel's attack on Gaza was fully justified. In the process, civilians were killed, and are being killed, just as civilians always are in war; many of them by the cynical uses of civilian residences, hospitals and schools. Gazans are used as shields for terrorists.

As Nigel Biggar points out, lawyers (South African) will have to demonstrate that Israel inflicted civilian casualties in Gaza, not inadvertently as a side-effect of the process of destroying Hamas, but INTENTIONALLY, in order to “destroy the Palestinians AS SUCH. Acting like Hamas, in other words.

All killing is terrible. Wars are terrible, and only lunatics are war mongers. But, we live in a world dominated by the likes of “Hamas and Vladimir Putin”.

Israel is doing what it has to do to save itself from genocide. And it is not itself genocidal, in either a legal sense or an emotional one.

(Source: ‘The spoils of war, Israel's fight against Hamas is not genocide’. Nigel Biggar, 20/1/24).

Thank you, Ttbn - I agree with Nigel Biggar.

We've all heard the arguments that Israel's actions are
aimed at the destruction of Hamas, a terrorist organization
not the Palestinian people of Gaza. So it is not genocide.
The case brought up
against Israel at the International Court of Justice in
the Hague according to the New York Times will take
years. The New York Times reminds us that past cases of
genocide were only decided years after the events took place.
So this will also take time to decide.

For now what is worrying many people is the collective
punishment being inflicted on the Palestinians. The harrowing
details from Gaza go on and on. We're told this is not genocide
because Israel is conducting a military operation.
It may remind some of us of the excuse some German officials
used with _ I was only following orders."

The Times tells us that:

The crushing of the medical system, the slaughter of aid
workers, the killing of journalists, the war on homes, houses
of worship, and culture. The destruction of families. Nowhere
is safe in Gaza.

Most of the people are starving. The New York Times tells us
that around 70% of the dead are women and children. Israel
denies fuel, food, water, medical supplies, creating conditions
of death because of starvation and dehydration or to die quickly
because of bomb attacks or snipers.

The destruction of water pipes, sewerage, electricity networks,
the hoisting of Israeli flags over the wreckage.

The New York Times asks - "How has this been allowed to happen?
And it is happening now - and we are all watching."

Dear Foxy,

It will be telling if the IJC decides to issue orders tomorrow in relation to Israel. If they do then it will give some idea of the validity of SA's claims.

Dear Foxy,

«We're told this is not genocide
because Israel is conducting a military operation.»

Which is the truth.

«It may remind some of us of the excuse some German officials
used with _ I was only following orders."»

Correct, and it may remind others of white rhinoceros eating strawberry milkshake:
how can anyone possibly cater for others' mental associations?

«For now what is worrying many people is the collective
punishment being inflicted on the Palestinians. The harrowing
details from Gaza go on and on.»

Indeed, so why does Hamas not stop it, which it could at any moment?

«Israel denies fuel, food, water, medical supplies»

Of that list, Israel only denies fuel (other than a little bit of fuel that goes to the sewerage plants), but it should:

Deny fuel - until the fuel goes to ordinary Gazans rather than for Hamas militants who steal it all.

Deny food - until its hostages receive adequate food.

Deny water - until its hostages receive adequate water.

Deny further medical supplies - until it is proven that its hostages received their medical needs.

«The destruction of water pipes, sewerage, electricity networks,
the hoisting of Israeli flags over the wreckage.»

Israel stopped the fighting in specified regions in order to allow water pipes to be repaired.
I am not informed about sewerage, though I am aware that Israel is concerned, because the same diseases affect its soldiers as well.
I am not informed about electricity networks, but what is their use when there is no electricity?
Flags are indeed unnecessary!

Hi Steele,

I'll be very surprised if the International Court of
Justice in the Hague finds Israel guilty.

If the shoe was on the other foot - it would be a
different matter.

But we'll have to wait and see.

______________________________________________________________________

Yuyutsu,

Oh, you're still here.

Dear Foxy,

Yes, I am still here, in Australia - I have not travelled to visit my family in Israel and have not been kidnapped to Gaza either.

Netanyahu has said the he will ignore any guilty-of-genocide finding. But, unless the court knows nothing about the law, no such finding can be made. According to the UN Convention, Israel cannot possibly be guilty of genocide.

Ideology, emotionalism and wild claims don't figure when it comes to what is right.

The Guardian tells us that more than one in 3 Americans
believe Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians,
a poll published on Wednesday has found.

YouGov poll, states that roughly equal numbers of adults
believe Israel's military campaign against Palestinians
estimated to have killed more than 25,000 people since
7 Oct amounts to genocide.

It will be up to the Court in the Hague to decide if this
is the case. However the court of public opinion is not
pro Israel.

Forgot to mention. The ICJ has no enforcement powers anyway. It's a paper tiger, and a joke. The UN Security Council might make a bit of noise, but they are also a joke. Certainly not something Netanyahu will be frightened of, especially as Israel has been scrupulous about the rules of war - even against terrorists, who recognise no law.

Israel has been found to have broken international
laws and signed agreements. The world is watching.

One in three Americans are influenced by Hamas propaganda. Israel builds Bomb shelters for its civilians, Hamas use bomb shelters for their fighters and their civilians in buildings as shields.

Josephus,

Israel's military campaign against Palestinians is
estimated to have killed more than 25,000 people since
7 Oct. Do your research before you post.
It's embarrassing.

"ICJ President Joan Donoghue delivered the interim judgement, saying the humanitarian situation in Gaza is "catastrophic".

"She imposed several conditions on Israel, and said it must take all measures to prevent genocide against Palestinians in Gaza."

"While the ICJ did not order a ceasefire, it said it would not throw out the genocide case — as Israel's lawyers had requested — and that some of South Africa's assertions were plausible."

Foxy, I suggest you do your research before posting. Israel protects its citizens in Bomb shelters. Hamas uses its citizens as human shields to garner international support as committing genocide. You as a left-wing University brainwashed Marxist influencer cannot understand the difference.

Well,the ICJ has not "ordered" an Israeli ceasefire.

It could not have. It has no powers to order any sovereign country to do anything; it is a farce and a waste of money - otherwise unemployable, unaccountable clowns dressed in black robes, with blank faces and not much going on behind the faces, bored and boring everyone else rigid. Fancy being daft enough to take up the whining of a Third World, failed state like South Africa.

Josephus,

Actually I am a professionally trained individual in
presenting facts and doing research. I don't limit
myself to just one side of politics or just one
philosopher like Karl Marx. He doesn't do it for me.
But your level of ignorance is astounding so I am
being kind in advising you to do your research.

And my advice is free in your case.

You're welcome.

The UN has "paused funding" UNRWA while it investigates allegations that members of that group (getting $20 million of Australian taxpayers' money annually) were involved in the October 7 terrorist attack on Israeli citizens.

Even the emotional and absurd little Antonio Guterre is "horrified" by the allegations, which were made long before the official complaint.

Will the FreeAnese with our money government pause our $20 million that could be better used in our country than it is being used by Hamas against Isreal.

Even if we pretend that the 25000 deaths is true (it isn't) and even if we ignore the fact that about half of them were actual Hamas fighters (they were), the death toll doesn't come within cooee of a genocide.

Twenty-five thousand out of 5 million (the population of so-called Palestinians) is 0.5% of the total. Killing one-half of one percent of a peoples doesn't constitute a genocide or an attempted genocide. Additionally, when you consider that the Gazan population has more than doubled since Israel unilaterally and willingly handed it over to Fatah/Hamas, the made up assertions of genocide are laughable.

The genocide in South Africa against white farmers on the other hand.....will be ignored by all those of a certain leaning.

ttbn- Thanks for raising this thread. Kudos.

mhaze,

Ever read "The Power of One," by Bryce Courtenay?

The demand from the United Nation's top court that Israel
must do everything it can to prevent genocidal acts in
Gaza certainly was a striking symbolic blow against the
war.

The judges effectively ruled that when it comes to
accusations of genocide there is a case to be heard and
immediate action Israel must take.

This is a remarkable achievement for South Africa which
brought the case.

When this is all over, we’ll be in the streets burning rainbow flags; I can’t wait!

"Ever read "The Power of One,"

Yeah. I thought it was massively over-hyped.

What's the relevance?

mhaze,

I loved both the book and the movie. I found Courtenay's
book powerful. His childhood experience of growing up in
apartheid South Africa shows how lives can be changed
by learning principles for life. Courtenay did this through
his characters. I thought it's relevance to the Israeli
treatment of Palestinians was pretty obvious.

Our experiences allow us to build resilience and inner
strength. People can make a difference - united they can
become invincible.

Myself, similar to Yuyutsu have family members living in Israel and we do not read Hamas supporters propaganda on the situation we listen to the reality happening to family, people living with the facts. If Hamas comprise 10% of the population Israel has not yet done its job of exterminating terrorism from their borders.

" I thought it's relevance to the Israeli
treatment of Palestinians was pretty obvious."

It might be obvious to someone who holds your jaundiced view of the Palestinian issue. But not so much for those of us who see the reality of it.

I'm not quite sure how a book called 'The power of ONE' can show "People can make a difference - united they can become invincible."

The book was the opposite of acting united.

mhaze,

I realize that there's much you don't understand.
I don't have a problem with that. However, you should
perhaps try getting better informed.

Still it's your choice.

Some people prefer their own comfort zones. It's
perfectly natural.

As for the case of Israel. I'm certain that before long
things will get resolved. Public opinion will force
the hand - hopefully.

Stay well.

"I realize that there's much you don't understand.
I don't have a problem with that. However, you should
perhaps try getting better informed."

Hmmmm. Yet again Foxy shows that in her realm anyone who fails to agree 100% with her is by definition uninformed. All very childish.

As he said he would, and as he certainly should, Netanyahu has dismissed the mumbo jumbo about genocide. All the IJC has said is that Israel should take steps to AVOID genocide. Of course they should, and they always have. What a waste of space and bunch of rhymes-with-bankers this "court" and the numpties from South Africa truly are.

Foxy,

I admire those who seek information from various sources, however, I have noticed that you cite aljazeera quite often. I suspect information from this source is frequently used by you.

I would like to quote from the Middle East Forum.

"No serious journalist, diplomat, nor human rights activist should give Al Jazeera benefit of the doubt."

Terrorists have long used media to amplify their reach ... posted photographs.

Al Jazeera is a Qatar run news outlet

Sad, but hard to see how Israel can win this one.

The mad Uncles is in disarray on both sides, warring over its own border controls, missing in action.

Withholding vital munitions and $b in military aid, such as f35’s and an additional fleet of attack helicopters , relieving the existing small fleet, tired now from running full time since the beginning of the war.

The General staff are divided between the pragmatic right and Bidens rainbow flag elite, deficient and gutless, bucking orders unless it’s doing the bidding of the Mad Uncle, leading the military on the ground, to the point of mutiny.

In reality things are bad for Israel. I think they’ll need to give up the game until the election if Trump.
That one appears as the obvious alternative unfortunately.

As I understand it, what the ICJ concluded is that:
1) No genocide is presently being carried in Gaza; but
2) There is a real risk of genocide occurring there in future.

That is why Israel was told to AVOID genocide rather than to STOP it.

The ICJ based its concerns on the recorded words of certain Nazis in Israel's government who never made it a secret that they would like to see all Arabs dead.

Fortunately, Israel's defence minister, Yoav Gallant, stands firm against these Nazis and took great care that such Nazi declarations are never reflected in the actual orders which the IDF receives - quite the contrary.

The ICJ's interim orders help Israel to remain strong and not give in to these Nazis: Israel ought to be thankful for that support!

I remember a report early after 7th October that the civilian
population of Gaza followed the Hamas troops in and joined in the fun.
It turns out there was a large number, hundreds at least.
Now we learn that many were employees of UNWRA and some have been
sacked by the UN. Not charged of course that would be a step too far.

No one seems to talk about what is the real cause of the problem.
It goes back to the origin of Islam when a Jewish village was attacked.
Islam declared Jews to be deniers of Allah and should be killed.
This is in the Koran and Hadiths and has been drummed into the heads of
children for 1400 years.
So no matter where you turn the moslems hate Jews.

How to change it; some would say no way you cannot.
So we just let it go on for another thousand years or so ?
The problem we have to understand is Islam.
The Koran is the affirmation that Jews must be eliminated.
So, I will say it; Ban and burn all Korans and make it a criminal
offence to have a copy in any form.
All Mosques to be destroyed and Islam declared a criminal organisation.

I know my chance of ever seeing this implemented is zero, so I am not
going to form a movement to advocate it.

You OK Foxy, reach for your smelling salts, hi !

As a second thought Foxy, how would you solve this problem with wars
with Islamic countries ? We seem to have two major ones every century
plus numerous terrorist operations and cases of moslems just up and
killing someone every day because they are not moslems.
Now it seems to be just non-stop, like France two churches a day attacked.

Hi Bezza,

"Now we learn that many were employees of UNWRA and some have been sacked by the UN. Not charged of course that would be a step too far." That is an Israeli accusation against some individuals, not an established fact, why are you presenting it as such, you're not biased are you? Hang the accused before the trial, is that what you want?

"That is an Israeli accusation against some individuals, not an established fact, "

And Paul is all about 'established facts' (LOL).

The Un has sacked an unspecified number of staff for taking part in terrorism, because we all know that you sack staff without 'established facts'.

The US has cut off funding to the UNWRA because we all know you do that without 'established facts'.

The rogue Australian government has also acted, because we all know you do that without 'established facts'.

UNWRA have been up to their eye-balls in anti-Jew activities for years. I posted a photo of their teaching methods a while back, which, of course, the Hamas cheer-squad decided to ignore. Hostages report they were held in the homes of UN staff. Hamas munitions have been hidden in UN facilities.

They, UNWRA, claim they are helping Gazans, but in reality they are helping the terrorists to attack the evil Jews.

The Albanese government - probably Wong's decision - has paused taxpayer donations to UNRWA, while an investigation is carried out. There should be no Australian money at all going to UNRWA, which has already done enough with its hate education involving Arab children.

Gazan citizens have already been proved to have joined Hamas in the atrocities against civilians. The odds are that UNRWA as an organisation was part of the terrorism on October 7.

mhaze,

No, my claim to your being uninformed is not childish.
It's evidence based - going by your current posts and
your past record. It's not personal. I'm simply stating
facts and evidence that your own actions and postings
provide.

Hi WhiteMouse,

I have used Al Jazeera sources in the past. I have also used
Jewish Israeli sources as well. I always use multiple sources
to get the bigger picture. I don't confine myself to just
one source.

However, I appreciate your concern and I will continue to try
and present a balanced view - as I've been professionally
trained to do as a qualified researcher.

Yuyutsu

#The ICJ based its concerns on the recorded words of certain Nazis in Israel's government who never made it a secret that they would like to see all Arabs dead#

You expose the problem you have. So is it a two State solution you support too?

The left wing Kibbutz learned the the most severe lesson about cuddling up to the enemy true.

And here you go again, pillorying the right wing who in effect are paying the highest price on the battle field with losses.

You just don’t get it!

"No, my claim to your being uninformed is not childish."

Standard Foxy there. When you can't argue the point, go the ad hominem. She used to be better than that.

Standard mhaze.

Blaming others for what he does.

Dear Dan,

Everyone in Israel is equally paying the highest price on the battlefield - right, left, centre and even those who never gave politics a thought: the enemy, the bombs and the rockets know no distinctions.

«So is it a two State solution you support too?»

What I support is that Israel leaves the cursed territories it took in 1967, to the last millimetre. Period.

What happens after that on the other side of its border, should be none of Israel's business.

(obviously, should Israel be attacked again from those territories even after its withdrawal then that would be a whole different new story and Israel will know what to do in such case)

As far as I am concerned, once Israel leaves the West Bank, you too are welcome to come there in person and fight there on any side you like.

«The left wing Kibbutz learned the the most severe lesson about cuddling up to the enemy true.»

Oops, were the Jewish Messianic settlers behind the 1967 occupation?

- No: government in 1967 Israel was held by the left wing Kibbutz members.

Undoubtedly, Israel had to get in and destroy the attacking Arab armies of Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq.
But once it routed them, Israel should have withdrawn back to its borders.

But it didn't. Instead it bulldozed a whole neighbourhood in Eastern Jerusalem unprovoked, with only a few hours notice to its residents, not for security reasons but in order to allow Jewish pilgrims to visit and worship the fake "Western Wall". Later it was them, the "Left Wing Kibbutz" in government who permitted the Jewish Messianic settlers to settle in the West Bank.

Yes, they must learn their lesson, to stop serving as Messiah's donkey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah%27s_Donkey

Anyone who serves Don Quixote, will be badly beaten like Sancho Panza!

Yuyutsu and Foxy;
The problem we have is no matter how enlightened a plan we
would propose, if we were in a position to implement it, the only
certainty is that it would fail at some future time in another war.
I challenged Foxy to come up with a plan but I am not optimistic.
I proposed a plan that would stir up enormous numbers of do-gooders.
It was not a genocide of Arabs plan but a plan to eliminate Islam.
Probably my plan would cause a few wars but perhaps necessary.
Any current plan suggested will cause more wars indefinitely.
I will bet Foxy is pondering my request but it is a near impossible quest.

There is a way to cut down the number of wars significantly;
The whole world agrees to submit to Islam.
We would only then have wars between Sunnis and Shiites !

Sorry Paul, I forgot to reply to you.
You asked why I accept the unproven that UN staff were involved in the
7th October attack.
Well, the UN says they were involved. Are you now saying the UN should
not be believed ?
It all gets very messy doesn't it ?

Really to be realistic we just have to accept that these wars will
go on and on and on with no solution.
Somewhere down the track some fed up government with Nukes will use them.

Hi Bezza,

It is a horrid situation. One with no end in sight.
I had proposed a plan on another discussion - but
Yuyutsu didn't think it would work. I was more
optimistic with a "Nothing ventured, nothing gained"
attitude. I proposed Third Party involvement with
a summit of peace negotiations with the entire region
involved and pressure applied.

Still I'm not a pundit so I guess it should be left up
to the experts who know and understand the Middle Eastern
mentality.

All I can do is hope and pray that this will end sooner
rather than later. And pray that the numbers of lives lost
on both sides will decline.

It must be hard for Yuyutsu having family in Israel.
I can't even begin to imagine what he and they are going through.
Yuyutsu has been so balanced in his views on this forum.
Whi9ch we all should appreciate and value.

Tks Foxy,
Well if we accept that there is no solution then all the rest
of the world can do is to try and disconnect from the middle east as
much as possible.
For instance the NW Passage is open at present so it can provide a
shorter route from Europe to East Asia. Might need on duty Ice breakers
but that would be cheaper than Suez fees.
Some airlines, when there is a shooting war in the ME, go via Russia
and Norway, or India and Kazakhstan so that might be possible.
Also Sydney, Beijing, Germany is close to the Great Circle and so the shortest route.
Africa would be a problem because of Islamic countries on that continent.
How to deal with the UN could be a problem.
Some say it has passed its use by date anyway.
In a dramatically changed world there are many uncovered possibilities.
psst, I wonder if any of the eavesdroppers on here would like to comment !
Tks for replying Foxy.

Dear Bezza,

«There is a way to cut down the number of wars significantly;»

If you want the cut down the number of wars significantly, the only way is to decrease the ratio between the number of people and available land (and other natural resources).

If you like to submit to Islam, then go ahead my friend, but can you remember how many good Muslims were killed or had their hands chopped off by ISIS?

Muslim Israelis were also murdered on October 7th:
Fatima was a devout Muslim - she was driving and stopped at an intersection to give way to Hamas' motorcycle convoy, she visibly wore the Hijab when Hamas shot her many times, then she managed to say 4 times: "There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet": she started the 5th repetition, but died before completing it.

May Allah have mercy on her soul.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgNtsUkxF2g

Hi Bezza

I posted after reading news reports; "Penny Wong says allegations are deeply concerning as UNRWA investigates several employees accused of taking part in Hamas attacks" I took that to mean there were accusations (by Israel) and UNRWA was investigating certain accused persons. Do you have anything which adds to that? I assume those involved if they were, were low level Palestinians employed by UNRWA in some casual capacity, but never the less it is disturbing.

Bezza

You are right to be pessimistic, and there is always the chance that “Somewhere down the track some fed up government with Nukes will use them.”

But, we are talking about a very small area here, and there might not be anyone left to enjoy a spot of peace, including people in Israel.

And, if the Middle East were to be corralled off from the West, Israel would suffer too. And the West would need to look for oil elsewhere.

Sanctions might work, and idiot governments like our own could stop donating money that they are well aware is passed on to terrorists.

The biggest problem is that the West, the free world, has lost its mojo under pathetically weak leaders. The rot started with Obama's gutless attitude to Iran. Trump had a different approach, but Biden aped Obama. The lunatics are not frightened of them anymore.

There is one only one hope now: a Donald Trump presidency.

"my claim to your being uninformed is not childish."

It's childish because you have this child like view that disagreeing with your opinion is the same as being uninformed. I have a 10 yr grandson who likewise doesn't see the difference between his opinion and facts.

So you, Foxy, operate on the basis that I'm uninformed because I don't accept your jaundiced opinions. The idea that I'm uninformed because I don't agree with your jihad against Pell is a good example of it. The FACT that Pell was released made not the slightest difference to your opinion that those who disagreed with you were uninformed.

You've made this unsupported and unsupportable claim that I'm uninformed many times in the past and never once offered evidence for it. Indeed on not a few occasions I've suggested you offer supporting evidence for the accusation and each time you demur. There's two reasons for that:

1. There is no evidence that doesn't involve you just asserting that disagreeing with your opinion is the same thing as being uninformed.
2. You have the terrifying thought that if you went down that road, I'd reciprocate with the myriad errors of FACT that you've made over the journey, which would both be highly embarrassing and rather injurious of your rather over-blown opinion of your own opinion.

Paul, the UN announced that they had sacked the ones they received evidence about their activity.
Also there has been talk for some years that UNRWA had its funds diverted to armaments and tunnel builging I presume.

Yuyutsu, Fatimas fate seems to get repeated over and over again.
The relatives of the 9/11 victims can only shake their heads and say
"Will they never learn" ? They haven't in the last 1400 years so ?

ttbn, yes I am aware the Israel would suffer under my delete the ME
but perhaps they would see a way around it, by a nuclear strike demo
at the first sign of trouble. I think then Pakistan would think twice.

It needs someone to come up with a real crazy idea that will blow
everyone into silence.
I don't really have a clue as the Islamists would get really angry
if my isolate them plan got started ! Face it we cannot win !

Dear Bezza,

«Yuyutsu, Fatimas fate seems to get repeated over and over again.»

The Bedouins of Israel are Israeli citizens.
They made a blood-pact with Israel.
Israel is supposed to protect them like any other citizen.
Israel under Netanyahu failed.
He was caught asleep on guard, busy with petty politics instead.
Any decent leader would commit Harakiri in such circumstances.
But Netanyahu of course, is not.

«"Will they never learn" ? They haven't in the last 1400 years so ?»

Learn What?

That one must become an animal to survive?

Let me tell you: no animal survives forever either!

Our bodies will all surely die regardless one day, but if we lose our soul too, by becoming animals like our attackers, then we are in REAL trouble, then our enemies really won.

No - Just learn to stay on guard and ready, no matter what!

Hi Bezza,

Nothing surprises me in the Middle East today, its totally dysfunctional, corrupt and madness prevails. There is no good side in all this, Hamas, Israel etc, no one is good whilst the other mob is bad, they are all bad! Killing thousands of innocent women, children and non-combatant be they Palestinian or Israeli is totally wrong.

You've got hand it to the UN. They spend years harbouring Hamas terrorists in its ranks, uses its facilities to help the terrorist group, employs teachers who preach Jew hate and then scream when its funding is severed.

Now they are saying that the funding has to be reinstated because they've 'severed ties' with the 12 terrorist Israel identified. Well what about the people who hired those terrorists? What about the people who tried to hide them right up to the point that the funds were cut? What about all the terrorists Israel didn't mention? They are all still there, they are all still living off the largess of western doners.

The UNWRA are now saying they need the funds to provide humanitarian aid to the Gazans, when what we've found out is that the funds are used to provide help and support to a terrorist group.

Think about it....Australian taxpayer funds contributed to the maintenance of people involved in the kidnap, rape and murder of innocent men women and children. And these people want that to continue.

mhaze

A good description of the really awful organisation the UN really is, aided and abetted by democratic countries like Australia who give them our money, and stupidly retain membership of the UN.

Yuyutsu

#…The Bedouins of Israel are Israeli citizens.
They made a blood-pact with Israel.
Israel is supposed to protect them like any other citizen.
Israel under Netanyahu failed.
He was caught asleep on guard, busy with petty politics instead.
Any decent leader would commit Harakiri in such circumstances.
But Netanyahu of course, is not..#

That’s pathetic..it’s more truthful, the undoing from Oct.,7th is a consequence of the minority agitation from a minority of elitist US Democrat toadies the which you constantly blast your trumpet in support!

I’ve lost patience with your evil!

Dear Dan,

As I said earlier, once Israel leaves those cursed territories which it took in 1967, you will be more than welcome to go there yourself and fight your wars there as you please.

Israel has had enough, it exists for its own people and not in order to serve mad Messianic agendas, be they Jewish or Christian - it will no longer carry you on its back like Messiah's donkey!

Yuyutsu

Rubbish.

The load on Israels back is made in America. It’s been hoodwinked by secular Jewish elitists in the US diaspora.
A terminal cancer it is.

Hopefully it can hang in until a change in the US administration with the election of Trump.

Dear Dan,

«The load on Israels back is made in America.»

Indeed, most of the violent Jewish settlers who treat Israel as their donkey and by that get Israel into trouble time and again, are followers of the Nazi American Rabbi, Meir Kahane, and came from America themselves!

If I were a member of the Israeli Knesset, then I would present an amendment to the Law of Return, to exclude American Jews.

No people should be denied food and water.
Israel is an apartheid terrorist state committing genocide and willfully killing women and kids for land theft.

Yuyutsu

You’re in a very dark place, the state of denial.

Denying reality is the favoured position of the foolish elite current ruling classes, of which you advertise yourself as the proud rainbow flag standard bearer.

Open your blind eyes, overcome your timidity and leave the self delusion and toxic distorted realities of elitism . Good advice.

Dear Dan,

I thought the topic was Israel, not my psychology.

Thanks DD, AC, ttbn, mhaze interesting comments. Kudos. Had a few chuckles.

So what's new...
Israel still genociding?

This is part of the problem, while they believe in the quran and
Hadiths there will never be peace;

The death penalty for apostasy is part of Islamic law. It’s based on
the Qur’an:
“They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be
alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for
the cause of Allah. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill
them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or
helper.” (Qur’an 4:89)

A hadith depicts Muhammad saying: “Whoever changed his Islamic
religion, then kill him” (Bukhari 9.84.57).
The death penalty for apostasy is part of Islamic law according to all
the schools of Islamic jurisprudence.

Doesn't leave much room for compromise does it ?

Bezza,

You are right. There is no compromise to be had with Islam, the religion of death, nor with with anti-Semites.

All religions are flawed,
- And Jewish religious beliefs are certainly just as much a cause of this bs as Islam is.

I say there is no compromise with a nation that takes joy in the murder of women and kids.
I don't care about either of the toxic religions.

The conflict will likely blow up into a huge war in weeks and months ahead.

Did you see the footage of Israeli Special Forces going into a hospital in West Bank dressed as doctors and nurses with automatic weapons and murdering people in their beds?

If you say there's no compromise with anti-semitics ttbn (Israel criticisers) that means you support everything Israel does and there's no compromise with you.

Dear Critic,

«All religions are flawed,
- And Jewish religious beliefs are certainly just as much a cause of this bs as Islam is.»

The question being, are Judaism and Islam truly religions?

In my view they are not, even though some individuals are still able to use them as their religion or part thereof.

«Did you see the footage of Israeli Special Forces going into a hospital in West Bank dressed as doctors and nurses with automatic weapons and murdering people in their beds?»

The three killed people were not patients but Hamas operatives. They had a special room in which they were hiding, only located at the hospital. Yes they had beds there and could have been sleeping at the time, but if you look at photos of their beds, they are anything but hospital beds. Hospital patients do not normally carry a pistol.

Thank you AC,

"Did you see the footage of Israeli Special Forces going into a hospital in West Bank dressed as doctors and nurses with automatic weapons and murdering people in their beds?"

At the very beginning I warned of Zionist Death Squads (Israeli Special Forces) murdering innocent people. The sycophantic usual suspects poo-hood that as "ridiculous". Now the Zionist are doing exactly that. It was telling for me when a Zionist MP said first off' "Palestine no longer exists, there is only Israel." These murderers committing genocide are supported by several posters on this forum. What does that make them!

Morality and integrity in the West have been overturned. People who consider themselves kind and caring are barracking for terrorists who murder, rape and kidnap innocent civilians much the same as themselves: inhabitants of Western or Westernised, peaceful democracies.

The morality of many Westerners, including those in Australia, has completely flipped.

It is the equivalent of “.... supporting the SS, the Nazi party and the Germans during the second world war”. (Declan Mansfield, ‘Morality Flips’, Spectator, 27/1/24).

Excusing the Palestinians and holding Israel responsible for the current war in Gaza is “similar to blaming the Jews for Warsaw”, who about to be gassed in Treblinka, “rebelled against the Nazis”.

Millions of people, some posting here, are supporting the torturers, rapists, incinerators, mutilators and murderers of Hamas.

Those posters here, often calling others ‘Nazis’, sound a lot like the real Nazis themselves when it comes to Jews and Israel. They are actually supporting people who thought that what Hamas did on October 7 was a “good and beautiful thing”.

We know who these scumbags are.

Hi Yuyutsu,
"The question being, are Judaism and Islam truly religions?"

Well I guess that depends on how we define what a religion is.
I see woke-ism as a godless religion, maybe even the climate change agenda too.
- Where people 'believe' regardless of facts to the contrary

Hi Paul,
Since I complained so much about the wrongfulness of blowing up entire hospitals and apartment buildings, maybe I should just be grateful they didn't blow up the whole place up.
- Mind you, they probably would've if not for the ICJ.

They've pulled up on the genocidal comments to some degree, but are still killing Palestinians at will. I think the current issue for Palestinians is risk of starvation, who knows how many have died already.

IMO Israel, (with the support of the US, three cargo plane loads of munitions every day) most certainly have been inciting and committing genocide.

If the media can say 'Iranian backed Houthi terrorists' (when they just want the killing of Palestinians to stop), then 'US backed genocidal Israeli's' is just as much a fitting statement.

America has blood on it's hands and is a party to this conflict, (party to most conflicts truth be told) so they will just deny, deny, deny, and talk rubbish like Israel does.

Netanyahu talks about how IDF is the most moral military.
- I think about the kids in Gaza getting amputations without anesthetic and many others starving, innocent people (non combatants) I've seen murdered in cold blood and think that these Israelis are lying lunatics.
The really dangerous part may be that they actually believe some of the things they say.

I can't remember the saying IDF use.
But apparently there are no innocent people in Gaza.
Palestinians are the biblical Amalek, which need to be destroyed in entirety.
Many Israelis celebrate the murder and killing of innocents with much joy.
Israel is a sick nation, corrupted by the occupation.

That said Americas not much better, if they bombed Australia tomorrow 35% of the country would cheer, whilst being unable to even find us on a map.

To add insult to injury, Australian police have decided that Palestinian demonstrators in Sydney were not screaming “Gas the Jews”; they were saying “Where's the Jews?”

What absolute BS! Apart from the grammatical illiteracy of either the coppers or the Palestinian rioters, the two sound NOTHING alike. And, why would Jew-haters be enquiring about the location of Jews!

A phonics expert has called it out as ridiculous nonsense from people uneducated in phonics listening to an audio track. Unfortunately, the only experts believed in hard Left Albostralia are those also on the hard Left who want to cover for the lies and the misinformation of the government that they accuse others of.

This incident has certainly attracted significant
public interest in what was chanted outside the
Sydney Opera House during the pro-Palestinian protest.
One side accuses, the other denies. All in all sowing
discord amongst both sides and their supporters.

Detectives from their Strike Force team continue to
investigate the incident.

It's an emotive issue for both sides. Hate speech and
encouraging violence in any protests - should not be
tolerated by any of us. And certainly should be controlled
by our laws and police. No excuses tolerated.

Communities must be made aware of what is acceptable and
what is not. And if you break the law you shall be
punished.

We have to wait and what the final outcome will be. It is
unfortunate that this conflict has reached our shores in
this unhealthy manner.

The expert mentioned above is Dr. Helen Fraser, Director of the ‘Research Hub for Language in Forensic Evidence at The University of Melbourne’, who was not involved in the investigation.

She said that the investigation was far too prone to cognitive bias, and lacking in “scientific probity”. Creating a reliable transcript of indistinct audio is a specialised task, “requiring real, not the ad hoc ‘expertise’ of police officers. The senior police officer reporting the ‘findings’ was very nervous/shifty, and didn't identify the ‘expert’ who came up with the misinformation. There probably was no expert, just cops.

I have listened to the clip from Ch. 9 news, and the terror-supporters in front of our own Australian Opera House were definitely shouting “gas the Jews”. We have reached a very low point in this country.

But, hey! The politicised police have given the politicians what they want to hear, and Australia slips further again down on the democratic and justice scale. That's what they want.

Listening to a Muslim woman who was at the protest stating," Weres the Jews" on TV last night indicates they are deceivers and liars, and the intent would be the same as "Gas the Jews"- as they wanted to do them harm. This deception has let them off the charges by those Palestinian supporter investigators. Islam knows how to weasel their way out of charges of violence, they put forward young women as defending their cause. Did you notice that during the street protests they posted on Facebook doe-eyed young women supporting Hamas war on Israel.

I see the Guardian has reported the lie to deceive the public.
"New South Wales police say an independent investigation found no evidence pro-Palestine protesters used the offensive phrase “gas the Jews” during a march near the Sydney Opera House two days after the 7 October attacks on Israel.

Initial reports of the chant were widely reported around the world and condemned by local politicians, but police say an independent expert who examined a number of audio and visual files found with “overwhelming certainty” that the words used were “where’s the Jews?”'

The video was obviously one of hostile anger, why were they chanting "Where' the Jews? It had the same intent to do harm. Our police investigators are corrupt and cannot control protests.

But who do we call when we're in trouble?

And who lays down their lives for us?

Our emergency staff - from paramedics, police, doctors,
nurses, volunteers, all deserve recognition - not abuse.
They have demanding jobs.

When an independent investigation doesn't suit their narrative the forums usual suspects scream blue murder. What a crock this thread title is "Talk of Israel's 'Genocide' is Nonsense" when there is now overwhelming evidence that the Zionist are indiscriminately murdering innocent women and children in Gaza. The "gun" kills so many, starvation, disease, and preventing medical treatment are the major weapons of the Zionist in their pursuit of genocide against the Palestinians.

Dear Critic,

«Well I guess that depends on how we define what a religion is.»

Religion is any practice that brings one closer to God.

«I see woke-ism as a godless religion, maybe even the climate change agenda too.
- Where people 'believe' regardless of facts to the contrary»

I will not exclude the possibility that belief regardless of facts to the contrary has at times helped certain individuals, considering their detailed personal circumstances, to come closer to God.

godless religions are indeed possible, yet I do not observe that the following of Judaism, Islam, woke-ism or climate-ism, necessarily bring their practitioners closer to God. A few may be helped, but neither of the above are valid universal formulas for approaching God.

«But apparently there are no innocent people in Gaza.»

There certainly are innocent people there who never supported Hamas, many even helped Israel over the years with valuable intelligence.
However, they are likely a minority and could not do much while Hamas was in power, not when Hamas ordered most families at gunpoint to store weapons and ammunition in their childrens' rooms. Now that Hamas is somewhat weakened, some Gazans started demonstrating against it, greeting IDF soldiers, thanking them and asking them to stay.

«Palestinians are the biblical Amalek, which need to be destroyed in entirety.»

The tribe of Amalek was already exterminated millennia ago.
Anyone who still calls people "Amalek" is knowingly lying.

«Israel is a sick nation, corrupted by the occupation.»

Well said and I fully agree.

The question being, how do you treat a sick person?
Do you just beat them all over with a hammer?
Do you just chop them off without discrimination?

A skilled doctor, following years of study, knows which parts must be cut and which parts can be healed and need support. Do you have such skills?

Yuyutsu

Ho Ho.

In my mind Yuyutsu, the Taqiyyah veil has been lifted on the corners, exposing your Shia Muslim leanings, if not your outright Arab ancestry. I guess with some accuracy I feel, judging by the consistency of your posts over many years,

Two in particular, your opposition to the state of Israel, the other your Hindu beliefs.

Is it time to fess-up?

Dear Dan,

I support a strong and healthy Israel - and in order to heal, Israel must humbly return to its original pre-1967 borders.

It is your kind, however, Christian fundamentalists, who care not for Israel's well-being because they only see Israel as a vehicle for bringing Jesus Christ back as their Messiah... as if they deserve Him...

There has been a descent into some really whacky religious nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with the false claims of 'genocide' against Israel.

And the claims are false, as will be found by people with the interest and ability to look into international rules of war and international accepted definitions of genocide, instead of listening to the ABC, or the mother-in-law, or reading the Guardian.

Left wing nitwits are "rallying" in Tel Aviv demanding an election.

What a jolly good idea! Let's have an election amidst a war to protect these nitwits from Hamas - terrorists who really do favour genocide!

At long last. And about time:

There is a growing rift between the Biden administration
and the Netanyahu government over Israel's war in Gaza.
Unsurprisingly tensions have grown as the horrific death
toll mounts to more than 25,000, 70% of whom are women
and children.

It's hard to understand that more non-combatants have been
killed in less than 4 months in Gaza than in nearly 2 years
of war in Ukraine where the civilian death toll only exceeded
10,000. Biden has warned that Israel was losing international
support over its "indiscriminate bombing" of Gaza and Biden is
pushing for a two-state solution. The situation in Gaza is dire.
People are starving. Aid must be given. No ifs and buts. We
can't just sit back and watch. The US must take action.

The US can't keep arming and financing Israel,
and then turn around and ask for restraint. And we can't
even begin to imagine what the result will be if Donald
Trump gets re-elected as US President Insanity will prevail.

Dear Ttbn,

Israel was due to have municipal elections on October 31st, 2023.
They were postponed due to the war, but life must eventually go on and democracy cannot be suspended forever, so now they are due this month, February 27th.

Should the situation on Israel(s) fronts indeed be dire enough, then surely Israel will postpone general elections too as required. In practice however, Israel's military position is only getting better, Hamas by now has been significantly decimated, and will be smaller still by elections time. Some IDF reserve brigades have already been released and sent home.

Legislation in the Knesset has already passed in first reading and will soon be passed into law, for IDF soldiers in Gaza to be able to vote there despite Gaza not being a part of Israel.

Israel is united, Left Right and Center, over the goals of eliminating Hamas and returning the hostages home.

That Prime-Minister who is responsible for all this mess, who was asleep on guard on October 7th because he was totally consumed with political manoeuvres, seeing only Israel's Left as his enemy that he failed to notice Israel's external enemies, that incapable prime-minister refuses to leave and so he must be kicked out. The polls show that support for his party was already halved.

"Brigadier General David Agmon, Netanyahu's former chief of staff, spoke at the demonstration: "I accuse you, Bibi, of seriously harming Israel's security. From Saturday, October 7, 2023, I no longer accuse, I condemn, I condemn you Benjamin Netanyahu, Prime Minister The illegitimate. I condemn you in the name of 1400 murdered, in the name of 240 kidnapped, in the name of 290 dead soldiers, in the name of 150 thousand displaced in their country, in the name of hundreds of thousands of reservist families, in the name of the entire people of Israel. I blame and condemn you for bringing upon us the most terrible disaster in the history of the State of Israel And in the history of the Jewish people since the Holocaust."
- http://newsrnd.com/news/2024-02-03-%22120-days-underground-without-oxygen%22--live-%7C-the-rally-for-the-abductees-in-tel-aviv-israel-today.S1xtW6x35a.html

Hi Yuyutsu,
"Do you have such skills?"
- No, but I possess at least a small amount of logic and common sense.

Re: diver dan comment

"It is your kind, however, Christian fundamentalists, who care not for Israel's well-being because they only see Israel as a vehicle for bringing Jesus Christ back as their Messiah... as if they deserve Him..."

- I was kind of getting that vibe too, Yuyutsu
The 'unconditional Christian support and defense of Israel' thing...
I call them all 'Christians4genocide' a made-up group of people - in mockery... based on the stereotype they currently represent.

As far as me saying Israel is a sick nation corrupted by the occupation, it was Matti Peled - a General during Israels 6 Day War 1n 1967 that himself said in the 80's that Israel was being corrupted by the occupation and US money.

I've seen what many average Israelis are saying and how they are acting...
- With genocidal level hatred in their words and actions and with joy and celebration at the other sides suffering
- and we're not talking about dead militants we're talking about dead women and kids - non-combatants.

[Cont.] - Diver Dans comment...

I thought "Good little Noahide attacking the self-hating Jew"

I think support and defense of Israel is part of a Christians DNA.
If a Jew told a Christian to lay on train tracks the Christian would at least consider it.

The thing about it though, religions...
The Jewish religion is not a religion that treats all people fairly and equally.
They want to rule over the non-Jews, and I don't agree with this idea of master and slave.
Christians claim to be everything that's good and decent in this world, but they are like Satan's little helpers when it comes to the whole 'Let's try and get an Armageddon started' thing...

Right here:

'I hope Jesus returns in my lifetime, I must help the Jew restore Israel, build the temple and bring forth the anti-Christ - then Jesus will come after the tribulation'

It must be screwed up being those people right now, trying to figure out how to navigate the right moral path, caught between supporting and defending Israel unconditionally while Israel murders women and kids.

They are corrupting their claimed good and moral selves too, defending murder, while Israel is a nation of hatred corrupted by the occupation.
- They have to treat the Palestinians as sub-human you see, otherwise they couldn't justify what they are doing.

[Cont.]
There won't be any peace until the issue of border is settled one way or the other, either 2 state solution or Palestinians ethnically cleansed from the land entirely.

It's a vicious cycle that cannot be broken.
An unwinnable war in which the flames are constantly stoked.

The current status quo ensures that Palestinians will continue to resist, with the continued taking of land.
And that Israel will collectively punish this resistance treating those people as terrorists with a brutal response, which only further entrenches the will TO resist.

All these people are dying needlessly because the civilized world wont face ugly facts, that powerful people have an interest in seeing the conflict continue until goals have been met.

Dear Critic,

«The Jewish religion is not a religion that treats all people fairly and equally.»

We have just been through this:

Is Judaism a religion?
If so, why?
Does anyone who practices Judaism thereby comes closer to God?
Does it mean that God wants Jews to feel superior?
I beg that not to be the case!

As for "fairly and equally", I only endorse "fairly" - why should it also be "equally"?
One can love both a doggy and a baby scorpion, but only a fool will treat them equally - the doggy one can stroke and play with, but anyone who plays with a scorpion...

«caught between supporting and defending Israel unconditionally while Israel murders women and kids.»

If Israel was to murder women and kids, then the best support Israel could receive was by firmly stopping it from doing so.

While that is not the case, many fundamentalist Christians would quite possibly prefer the murder of women and kids over supporting Israel.

You know what, it is not just Israel which they see as use-and-discard means for their selfish ends, it is Jesus too whom these idiots attempt to manipulate.

«There won't be any peace until the issue of border is settled one way or the other, either 2 state solution or Palestinians ethnically cleansed from the land entirely.»

There may not (and likely won't) be peace even afterwards, yet one has to do what is right regardless.

Yuyutsu

I just find these demonstrations by some Israelis bizarre under the circumstances.

You say that Israelis are united on hostages (fair enough) but I'm a little sceptical about them being in lockstep on Hamas. But, you know more about Israel than I do, and Netanyahu will be treated at the next election as Israelis think he should be. It's no other country's or individuals’ business.

October 7 did seem to reveal a most un-Israeli attention to security, for which Netanyahu is being blamed, naturally. But maybe the real problem is the ability for Gazans to go back and forth for work, and providing Hamas with intelligence - as has been reported. That seems pretty slack to me. Let the Palestinian Authority find employment for them. Transportation of Gazan sick into Israel to be treated, then returned, also seems pretty dumb to me.

IDF soldiers voting in Gaza is not a good look. It sort of belies the claim that Israel is not an occupier.

However, the real villain is Hamas, and Israel must win, no matter what. Just as the US had to do what most people would agree was a dreadful thing to Japan to stop a war that was dragging on and on, Israel must take more drastic action than it currently is or the conflict between it and Islamic terrorism will never end.

Dear Ttbn,

«I just find these demonstrations by some Israelis bizarre under the circumstances.»

Here are some slogans from these demonstrations.
Sorry I cannot translate the nuances, puns and rhymes into English:

"They [male-plural] sway - they [female-plural] are sexually-violated"
"They [male-plural] enjoy - they [female-plural] are being tortured"

"supporting the IDF - changing the government"
"the one who destroyed will not be fixing"
"we have been forsaken"
"[Menachem] Begin resigned - when will you?"
"for loyalty to a leader will Jerusalem be destroyed"
"bring forth the day after him" (the "day after" usually refers to the day after the war)
"when our children fight Hamas - Netanyahu fights us"

«but I'm a little sceptical about them being in lockstep on Hamas.»

Everyone in Israel knows and agrees that so long as Hamas is in control just across the border, it will remain unsafe to live in the towns and villages surrounding Gaza in particular and in Israel in general.
This includes not only the "Left", but even Muslim Israeli Arabs.

«But maybe the real problem is the ability for Gazans to go back and forth for work, and providing Hamas with intelligence - as has been reported.»

This is a remnant of better days, before Hamas came to power.
There was a time after 1967 when Israelis visited Gaza for shopping and Gazans travelled and worked freely in Israel. Maybe, not immediately of course, these days will one day return. Spying goes both ways, so while having to be careful, Gazans employees in Israel also provided valuable intelligence to Israel.

«Transportation of Gazan sick into Israel to be treated, then returned, also seems pretty dumb to me.»

Good deeds are good indeed.

I support such baby steps of building friendship rather than hatred.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«IDF soldiers voting in Gaza is not a good look.»

It was initially considered to send them back on rotation to Israel to vote throughout the week prior to elections, but then it was thought that it would impinge on the fighting and the extra traffic on Gaza's treacherous roads would likely cause more casualties.

«Just as the US had to do what most people would agree was a dreadful thing to Japan to stop a war that was dragging on and on»

Well the IDF is indeed, to the best of my knowledge, the most moral army on earth. I wouldn't like it any other way.

«Israel must take more drastic action than it currently is or the conflict between it and Islamic terrorism will never end.»

It is unlikely to end anyway, just like fires are unlikely to end in Australia or earthquakes in Japan, but wise and moral actions can bring longer patches of cease-fire and relatively improved neighbourly relations.

«Transportation of Gazan sick into Israel to be treated, then returned, also seems pretty dumb to me.»

"Good deeds are good indeed."
- Are they? maybe - but I hear Israel runs a fairly efficient organ harvesting program from the Palestinians - need a new kidney - no problem, the Palestinians will provide!

"I support such baby steps of building friendship rather than hatred."

Yeah I guess, but how do you TRULY expect that to work when you a busting into peoples homes a 2am, executing them in their beds and then bulldozing their homes?
Seems like a 'split-personality' kind-of friendship.

Friendship?
Why is it that the first thing that came to my mind is this?

The Simpsons - You Don't Win Friends With Salad
http://youtu.be/0L2_RvXVMxE
"Yoh Goober - where's the meat?"

- Those good deeds were cancelled out when Israel bombed the hospitals and killed the doctors, nurses, paramedics and other emergency workers, left the babies in the hospital to die, left the kids to face amputations without anesthetic, and are trying to starve the entire populace...

Was Israel trying to build a REAL friendship, or just finding new ways to exploit and subjugate?

Geez it's like the US are trying really hard to make Putin's arguments for him.
- They charge him with war crimes for taking kids in the Donbass away from the battlefield, and then the US is complicit in killing 27,000 women and kids in a couple months, can't send the cargo planes full of munitions fast enough...

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/04/anthony-albanese-flags-recognising-palestinian-state-could-rest-on-it-being-demilitarised

"The US president, Joe Biden, last month said different models of a two-state solution were available and he alluded to the possibility of a demilitarised Palestinian state."

Is he trying to make himself sound like Putin with all this talk of 'demilitarised states'? It would seem a little pointless when Biden n friends went to all that trouble overthrowing the country AND DELIBERATELY MILITARISING IT to get a war going.

Ruled based order... what rules?
'Do as I say, not as I do'

AC you are posting irrational rubbish.

Hi AC,

"The international rules based order". A popular phrase used by the powers of political Capitalism/America, and dutifully repeated by political sycophants and lackeys in the West. What it means, and who determines the "rules", who enforces the "rules" is questionable. Russia is not playing by the "rules", the Ukrainians are, the Palestinians are not playing by the "rules", along with so many other disgruntled people in the world, the Chinese for example, who are also not playing by the "rules". Seems the Zionists are playing by the "rules", so we are told thousands of dead women and children in Gaza can testify to that. The Americans are always playing by the "rules", despite killing more innocent people in the world than you can shake a stick at. Seems being innocent doesn't make you a party to the "rules", so look out, the enforcer of the "rules" may come after you.

Dear Critic,

«- Are they? maybe - but I hear Israel runs a fairly efficient organ harvesting program»
«Why is it that the first thing that came to my mind is this?»

Perhaps we should start a new thread to discuss the voices you hear and how your mind works?

«but how do you TRULY expect that to work when you a busting into peoples homes a 2am, executing them in their beds and then bulldozing their homes?
Seems like a 'split-personality' kind-of friendship.»

To begin with, I never busted into anyone's home at 2am, never executed anyone nor bulldozed any home.

I was writing to Ttbn about good and kind deeds and while doing so, such terrible associations never even crossed my mind, thus no risk of a split-personality - but they somehow seem to cross yours and that's a pity.

Then you dedicated your last post to America and Putin, issues which again never crossed my mind when I was replying to Ttbn about Israel.

- looks like a bit of meditation can help your mind concentrate.

Josephus

You are right, and you do not have to respond to such rubbish. The more you respond, the more unhinged AC becomes.

Yuyutsu

Well at the least, Christians make good tourist fodder. And.. Jesus was a Jew, let’s not forget.

That fact alone was cause for many Christian pogroms against the Jews through history.

Isn’t it better that the farmer and the cow man are friends at last?

I can be more serious if you wish, but I think you have your hands full with the fanatical rainbow Secularists above!

Dear Dan,

«I can be more serious if you wish»

I do not: you sound better when you lighten up.

I do agree that a major reason why Christians hated Jews through the centuries,
was that the Jews, indirectly through Jesus, Paul and Peter,
introduced the gloomy Christian Church to Europe,
which thwarted their erstwhile light-hearted innocent care-free lifestyle.

Some Christians still blame Jews for the death of Christ.

And some Jews still claim that Christians should not interfere with their own internal political affairs.

#… Some Christians still blame Jews for the death of Christ…#

But it’s a preordained event is the death of Christ, or so we Christian’s are lead to believe. Therefore, only God stands guilty of his death, one would think.
That is the omnipotent God, not the more personal omnipresent God though, there are two distinct Gods according to Sigmund Freud, ( or was that Carl Jung, it’s too long ago).

Interesting though, the dual God theory.

The UK, in particular the UK Labour Party, looks like getting a practical lesson on the stupidity of accepting/encouraging Muslim immigrants.

While Labour has always been favoured by Muslim voters, their support for Labour has dropped from 86% to 60% since Israel has been defending itself from the Islamic terrorists, Hamas.

In the next election, 85% of polled Muslims said that the handling of Israeli-Palestinian policy will affect how they vote in a BRITISH election. Further proof that their loyalty is to Islam, not the country they were accepted into.

Labour leader, Keir Starmer, instructed that the party was NOT to vote for a ceasefire in November. He continues not to back any calls for ceasefires; whereas the Tories are weak on supporting Israel, and would recognise a Palestinian state, Starmer says that, “a future Labour government would not recognise a state of Palestine pre-emptively or unilaterally.”

UK politics is UK's business. The point is, though, that the appalling acceptance of Muslim immigrants who will vote on domestic politics according to what is happening in other parts of the world and to their religion, is just the latest example of the stupidity of the political class thinking that Muslims are appropriate immigrants to the West.

#…The point is, though, that the appalling acceptance of Muslim immigrants who will vote on domestic politics according to what is happening in other parts of the world and to their religion, is just the latest example of the stupidity…#

The point is simpler than you think.

Muslims are in fact, freeloaders of revolt.

Worse, sitting at Egypts firmly closed door are untold millions of the most toxic Islamists, waiting to export themselves into sympathetic Western democracies, which themselves are torn apart with ideological warfare.

The last I checked, the count for Israelis entering Australia for humanitarian reasons was around thirteen hundred since 7/10 war. The numbers of Palestinians was around four hundred by comparison.
But the question can be asked, how have four hundred escaped the trap of closed borders?
What then when the borders are open, one can only imagine.

The collection of Biden toadies assembled under the very dubious leadership of Albert Sneezy will herald our own version of the US Democrats love of open borders for all and sundry,

Things are bad but they will be worse, is a safe bet!

DD

Muslim countries like Egypt and others won't won't let "refugees" in. They leave that to the stupid West, and people like Albanese who think that the scum will change their stripes under Western influence.

Or does Albanese believe that? Is it part of his divide-and-conquer plans: separate tribes at odds with each other, while he quietly goes about his dirty work.

Things will definitely get worse. Not only do we have the worst Prime Minister ever. We also have the worst Opposition Leader ever. There is no hope to be had from him either.

Albanese is merely a symptom.
He's what we get given all the other factors.

Western leaders have become liars, authoritarian and they don't support democratic ideals anyway.

Take this:

Exclusive: Tucker Carlson Could Face Sanctions Over Putin Interview
http://www.newsweek.com/tucker-carlson-sanctions-eu-putin-interview-1867655
"Carlson wants to give a platform to someone accused of crimes of genocide—this is wrong."

Is this an example of our great western democratic ideals?
THEY ARE ALL AUTHORITARIANS - THEY ARE MUCH WORSE THAN PUTIN COULD EVER BE

Accused - what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
What happened to 'Freedom of the Press'?
Don't we call those countries that prevent freedom of the press 'regimes'?
The EU blackmail their member states as well by withholding their own money from them.

Tucker Carlson -
Sanctions, Travel restrictions - Why are they so scared?
He hasn't even released the interview yet, and they are all crapping themselves
Don't the people have a right to what what Putin says?

Haven't all our governments given enough of our money over to continue a war that cost half a million Ukrainians their lives?
That the West convinced them against negotiating peace and said they will be there 'As long as it takes' but can't keep their word, Ukraine is losing badly now.

They claim these democratic ideals, but they do not practice them.
They are all corrupt scum and frauds.

What's it all about
Hatred for Russia?
War profits to Blackrock and the MIC?
It's all a scam, all our corrupt leaders are in bed together
- And they are not acting in the citizens interests.
These band of leaders are destroying all our nations

What about the standing ovation to a NAZI in Canadian Parliament?
- Turns out Trudeau invited him himself at the request of Zelensky.

They are all corrupt Bidens lapdogs.
The entire collective west is rotten.

This is what the west deems more acceptable.
http://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/1755454726702084305
- An endless barrage of emotionally charged bs to manipulate you and deny you any sense of reason.

And these are the people you lot support being sent to die so Biden can stave off an election loss and political crisis, and the risk of Trump being elected (so much for democracy - will of the people and all).

http://twitter.com/simpatico771/status/1755285868439363674
"Well, it was only a matter of time:
Female AFU POW taken: her husband is MIA, she has 3 kids, no job, went to the army to pay the bills, was sent to Krynki (Russian bank of the Dnieper), wounded, denied evacuation (not valuable enough), left to die, saved by the Russians."

All the western leaders are all in panic mode.
They are spakking out so badly they are all talking conscription and sending their own to fight Russia, rather than lose.
"The people may reelect Trump! - Democracy! Heaven forbid"

Democracy matters in Ukraine, but not in America.

They are all TOTAL SCUM, they betray all the ideals they claim to support and uphold.
Anyone can see it if they look, it's as plain as day.

Last week the EU said it plans to wage economic war on one of it's own member states - wants to inflict collective punishment to oust Orban.

When will you all see that these people are not the good people they claim to be?

About time you all woke up and saw it.
I've been telling you all for years.

Zionist Fuhrer Netanyahu will not agree to a ceasefire in Gaza, it will take a few more months for the Israeli 'Death Squads' to "get the job done", against the innocent Palestinian people. The Israeli army has manged to herd a million more Palestinians into the southern Gaza concentration camp of Rafah promising them safty. Now the Zionists are about to "do the deed" against these innocent women and children, the UN has said this will be a blood bath!

"Carlson wants to give a platform to someone accused of crimes of genocide—this is wrong."
- They have no problems putting Netanyahu on TV whenever it suits.
And he actually has been committing ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Tuckers interview should be out at 12pm today.

In the past few months there has been an Australian rise in support for Israel. Not from useless politicians, but from real people.

‘Never Again Is Now’, Australians United Against Anti-Semitism, is organising events across the country: the first in Sydney on 18th. February then 3rd. March in Adelaide. Events in Melbourne, Canberra, Perth, Hobart and Brisbane are being planned.

61% of Australians want to stay out of the conflict
entirely.

Dear Paul,

Well, Netanyahu not only agrees to a cease-fire, he just didn't agree to some of Hamas' other conditions, especially to end the war permanently.

Netanyahu's top interest is to prolong the war, hopefully forever, because the day the war ends spells his personal end as well.

He could even favour a cease-fire as it postpones the end of the war, but then he could be hoping that the absence of a cease-fire may trigger a full and longer war with Lebanon, allowing him extra months/years to survive.

Unfortunately for him, the IDF does not take his hints, because it's the people's army, not his, and the Israeli people do not want to fight forever. In practice, the IDF is now fighting mainly for the hostages as it believes that to be the only way to release them - the IDF would not be so highly motivated otherwise, but sadly time is of the essence as the hostages are now dying, one by one and therefore this war will soon end... and so will Netanyahu!

Why would you expect Netanyahu to prioritise Gazan women and children when he doesn't even prioritise the Israeli hostages?

I notice that you still use the term "Zionist":
Netanayhu is not a Zionist.
Would you care to at least call him and his supporters "Neo-Zionists", in order to distinguish between those fakes from the original Zionists who were peaceful, constructive and respectful of the local Arab population?

---

Dear Ttbn,

«In the past few months there has been an Australian rise in support for Israel.»

To really support Israel, one should help it be rid of the poisonous territories it swallowed in 1967, as well as of Netanyahu.

And FREE THE HOSTAGES WHILE SOME OF THEM ARE STILL ALIVE!

---

Dear Foxy,

«61% of Australians want to stay out of the conflict entirely.»

And so would about 80% of the Israelis, if they could help it.

In Gaza, terrible as their conditions may be, I estimate the number of Gazans who want to stay out of the conflict entirely to only be around 40%.

'Australians United Against Anti-Semitism'

Seems like a bit of an oxymoron...

Not all Australians support Israel, so we're certainly not 'United'.
'Criticism' of Israel under the current circumstances isn't just fair it's actually required, because no nation should get away with killing innocent people unchallenged.

'Australians against Anti-Semitism' reads more like
'Australians loyal to Israel, telling other Australians not to criticise Israeli ethnic cleansing, murder, genocide and crimes against humanity'
(I could've made those examples a much larger list)

The Anti-Semitic police seem to think all these things should go unchallenged and not be discussed, because they condone these things.

Who are these 'Australians'; loyal to foreign country
Who are they to tell other Australians what they can and can't think or say?

'Australians United Against Anti-Semitism':

"We're disgusted that you people dare criticise Israels bombing deaths of 30,000 women and kids, the murders committed by IDF and our withholding medicine and wilful starvation of the Palestinian people due to our blockades.
These people are cockroaches and needed to be exterminated anyway
You people are wrong for criticising us and not supporting this project of ethnic cleansing for Eretz Israel
Don't you people realise that for us to wage a different kind of war we need intelligence, which we can only get by using food an medicine to blackmail Palestinians into becoming informants?"

- And this is what you support ttbn?
[Rolls eyes]

Funny how you talked all you crap about foreign issues not mattering and focus on Australia, until there was a foreign issue you cared about ttbn - now look at you go!

They can go for a long march of a short pier, for all I care.
'United', - about as united as Albo's referendum.
Saying it doesn't make it true.

'United For Genocide' - that's what they should call themselves.

"In Gaza, terrible as their conditions may be, I estimate the number of Gazans who want to stay out of the conflict entirely to only be around 40%."

The majority probably understands that change will not happen until they make it happen, and that peaceful initiatives have gone nowhere, they just waste time while Israel steals more land and more Palestinians suffer.

Palestinians already exist under Israeli oppression.
'Staying out of the conflict entirely' means accepting things the way they are, the subjagation, dehumanisation and everything else'

IDF kicking in your door at 2am and shooting your kids.

The Israelis don't have any reason for wanting the situation to change
No=ones kicking their doors in and invading their homes in the middle of the night.
And they support increased ill-treatment and further subjagation.

Bringing the issue down to a matter of those numbers doesn't do the issue justice, and subverts the possibility of looking at the issue in a much broader sense and for what it actually is..

Dear Critic,

«IDF kicking in your door at 2am and shooting your kids.»

You seem to be confusing things up with the West Bank.

Over there in the West Bank, yes, and over there the number of people who want to stay out of the conflict entirely is likely closer to 90%, not 40%.

- But we were discussing Gaza and in GAZA (before the war), how and why would the IDF possibly get to your door?
In GAZA, the only one who would and did the above, are Hamas!

«The majority probably understands that change will not happen until they make it happen, and that peaceful initiatives have gone nowhere, they just waste time while Israel steals more land and more Palestinians suffer.»

In GAZA, Israel's peace initiative has gone nowhere because of Hamas.
In GAZA, Israel stole no land, but gave all back.

Following Israel's full withdrawal in 2005 and before Hamas started terrorising Israel from GAZA, Gazans were not blockaded and many in fact worked in Israel. It is only because of Hamas that Israel was forced to blockade them.

«The Israelis don't have any reason for wanting the situation to change»

You must be kidding, or are you so deluded to think that Israelis like the situation? That they like being murdered, raped and taken hostage? That they like being taken for long reserve duty and then returning from Gaza as corpses or with missing limbs? That they like being displaced from their homes in towns and villages close to Israel's borders?

Most Israelis want change, they want peace and have been demonstrating for it and against Netanyahu's government for over a year.

Yuyutsu

Only Israel and its citizens can can do what you suggest. In the meantime, Israel, with Netanyahu (like him or not) must smash Hamas so that it never again raises its vile head.

The Zionists have wasted no time, moving into the Rafah Concentration Camp and murdering innocent women and children. The Israeli army under orders is demolishing all homes on the Gaza side within 1km of the Israeli boarder. The UN has described the action as a war crime.

The Nazi concentration camp at Auschwitz was a village compared to Rafah, Auschwitz held about 1200 prisoners, the Rafah Concentration Camp holds 1.2 million!

Dear Ttbn,

American intelligence sources claim that Israel is still far from completely destroying Hamas and doubt whether it is even possible.

Meanwhile, Israel has used up in Gaza more ammunition than in World-War-II and there is now shortage of ammunition world-wide, including in Russia and Ukraine. Israel also needs to reserve sufficient ammunition to be able to fight Hezbollah properly should the situation with Lebanon drags into a full-scale war.

As a result, Israel now uses more infantry and less jet-fighters than before - it is still winning, but with relatively more casualties.

A temporary cease-fire is needed to renew the ammunition stocks.

I found this in Hebrew, but they seem not to publish the same in the English version, so I translate:

"American sources claimed that the Secretary of State feels shocked that Netanyahu mixes up political considerations in the matter of hostages, and added that Blinken feels that himself is more committed to the matter of hostages than Netanyahu."
- http://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/s1h8a9gia

Finishing off Hamas can be completed next year as well, but the hostages will not remain alive by then.

If you ask me whose side I am on, then clearly, I am on the side of the Israeli hostages. It could have just as well been my family, by luck it is not, it could have even been myself while I visited them.

Just listened to another debate on how to solve the Gaza problem.
All points made resulted in the other side making genocide accusations.
There seems to be no other way out except for this solution.

Israel to make the best agreement it can that will release all the
hostages and the bodies of those hostages that Hamas has killed.
When all the hostages are released then Israel should announce that
they are abrogating the agreement with Hamas on the grounds that
anyone that uses hostages and bodies of hostages in like manner does
not deserve to have any agreements honoured.
The Koran gives the right to make agreements in bad faith to moslems if Islam benefits.

So what is good for moslems can also be used against them.

Paul, the difference between Rafa and Austerwitz is that there is
2 million in Rafa compared to 6 million that went through Austerwitz
where NONE of those came out. Good chance most of the 2 million will survive.

Bezza, a few did survive, in total the Nazi's exterminated 6 million people most were Jews. Of the 1.3 million deported to Auschwitz 1.1 million were murdered, about 90% were Jews. Between 1 and 1.3 million Jews were exterminated in the Soviet Union.

The Zionists intention is to exterminate as many Palestinians as they can, particularly women of child bearing age, and children of course, tomorrows avengers. The Zionist leadership has stated Palestine no longer exists, and the aim now is to exterminate as far as possible, the Palestinian people, disease and starvation are their main weapons of choice, bombs are used to destroy infrastructure mostly, people as well. The aim is for a totally Zionist state. Any Palestinians that survive will simply become a complaint under class, serving the Jews.

Bezza

Lying is permitted in Islam, and "honour" means killing anyone, you don't like, and even your own daughters if they step out of line with an infidel. There is a case going on in Adelaide of a Muslim girl stabbed by her family for associating with a non-Muslim boy.

As for solutions for Israel, Netanyahu intends to continue solving the problem by killing Hamas terrorists. On the 6pm News tonight, he said there are still 4 (I think) Hamas battalions to deal with.

Dear Bezza,

«Israel to make the best agreement it can that will release all the
hostages and the bodies of those hostages that Hamas has killed.
When all the hostages are released then Israel should announce that
they are abrogating the agreement»

Israel is to remain for the long run while Hamas is not.

If Israel were to do that, then it would lose its credibility for generations, in all matters and not only with Muslim countries.
Israel's credit rating, for example, was just reduced today due to the war from A1 to A2 - should Israel break promises like you suggest, then its rating would drop straight to C, because no investors could trust it either!

Also, should Israel behave as badly as its surrounding enemies, then why should it even be allowed to exist?

According to the agreement which Israel recently rejected, in order to secure the hostages, Israel would have to withdraw from Gaza, then stay out for 135 days. In my view a deal along these lines can be accepted without cheating, then after 135 days, unless Hamas have left Gaza by then, Israel should go into Gaza again to finish what it started. Note also that these 135 days of calm in Gaza would allow Israel to renew its ammunition stocks as well as to divert troops to its north and permanently change the situation, peacefully or otherwise, on its northern border with Lebanon.

BTW, Israel would make no significant concessions for mere dead bodies. That would be utterly senseless.

---

Dear Ttbn,

Yes, 4 battalions left out of 24.

The IDF today completed a plan on how to remove civilians from Rafah and says that the operation in Rafah will be completed before the start of Ramadan, March 10th. I hope it succeeds in getting the civilians out of Rafah and providing them with humanitarian aid before it enters there to finish its job.

This is the type of humanitarian aid that Israel likes best.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-11/body-of-gaza-girl-ambulance-team-trapped-under-israeli-fire-foun/103452508

Killing kids.

Yuyutsu

I think that it is Hamas's responsibility to protect its own citizens, not Israel's. After all, 75% of Gazans support Hamas. And, no matter what Israel does it is always going to be criticised by the usual ignorant suspects.

Dear Critic,

«This is the type of humanitarian aid that Israel likes best.»

The article you presented, itself says that it cannot tell what happened to the ambulance, how less so about the motive behind it, if any. All it says is that "civilians must be protected", with which I agree.

There is no evidence that Israel either did it or likes what happened (as if "Israel" was a person with just one view and set of preferences, which it is not). More likely, that crime (if indeed it was a crime and not an accident) was either an act of the Nazi Jewish settlers or a deliberate staging by Hamas, which cares more about propaganda than about the lives of children, yet the fact that you chose to present this article and in this manner, indicates that YOU like this sort of things, that finding it in this morning's news has indeed made your day.

---

Dear Ttbn,

Hamas is neither able nor willing to protect Gazan citizens,

I think the pre-war percentage of Hamas supporters in Gaza was closer to only 60% rather than to 75%, but in any case the remaining 25-40% are suffering enormously and should be helped. Israel can also benefit greatly by winning the hearts of the others too.

As Hamas weakens, more Gazans dare to come out and demonstrate for the release of Israeli hostages, more Gazans openly curse Hamas, more Gazans congratulate Israeli soldiers and ask them to stay. Israel may not be legally obliged, but is morally obliged to help them.

Yuyutsu

"Hamas is neither able nor willing to protect Gazan citizens..".

Well, that's stiff cheese for the Gazans. If, as you say that they are coming out against Hamas, they have left it a bit late, and most of them approved of Hamas before Israel was attacked, and while they thought things would end as they have in the past with another ceasefire, and time for Hamas to refresh their the plans to wipe Israel of the map.

Apart from that, I find it ridiculous to expect Israel, or any other country, to take care of an enemy' civilians. It doesn't happen elsewhere, and it should not be happening now. It is foolish of Israel to be giving the warnings it is now, virtually telling Hamas what it's going to do next - and still being accused of genocide!

'Contrary to the rules, Hamas DELIBERATELY targeted IsraelI civilians'
What a load of codswallop, what effing rules?

The bombing of Dresden in WW2 looks like a garden party when compared to decimation in Gaza.
Or are you saying they evacuated the citizens before the bombing?

The reality is that the Germans never gave up Nazism they just passed the baton to the Zionists, with guaranteed German support.

My saving grace is that I don't think like you

Dear Ttbn,

«I find it ridiculous to expect Israel, or any other country, to take care of an enemy' civilians.»

This is not a matter for expectations.
Israel ought to help enemy civilians not because it is expected to, but because it is the good thing to do, because that is what Jesus would have done, or do you still consider yourself a Christian?

"Ubi cáritas et amor, Deus ibi est"

- Where charity and love are, surely there dwells God.

«It doesn't happen elsewhere, and it should not be happening now.»

I note that you also oppose Australian aid to Ukraine and accepting refugees.

Israel is lucky to have, relatively speaking, the most moral army in the world, doing well and over beyond what would be expected of anyone else in that difficult situation;
and is also so blessed that whenever it morally lapses, there comes the chorus of all Armchair Critics and Special Deliveries of the world to remind it and help it return to the straight and narrow.

«It is foolish of Israel to be giving the warnings it is now, virtually telling Hamas what it's going to do next»

Now you seem to belittle the professionalism of the IDF:

Do you really think that they don't know themselves exactly what and when should be kept secret?

Let alone considerations of morality - even from a practical point of view, warning civilians in advance whenever it is safe to do so, is helping Israel by helping America to continue providing it the ammunition it so much needs.

---

Dear Delivery,

Israel did what it could within reason to warn Gazan civilians in advance and provide them with safe escape routes. This is more than the Australian army did in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

«Germans never gave up Nazism they just passed the baton to the Zionists, with guaranteed German support.»

Who exactly are these mysterious "Zionists" that you speak of?

Are you aware that presently, Germany is working together with the European-Union (bar Hungary) on imposing further painful sanctions on the Nazi Jewish settlers in the West Bank?

Yuyutsu

My opposition to aiding Ukraine or accepting refugees has nothing to do with this topic or what Israel does. Getting off track, using irrelevancies, is not helpful. I could drag up all your very Lefty ideas on other matters, but I haven't, because I don't assume that they have any bearing on this matter, as you apparently have in my case.

Yuyutsu said;
If Israel were to do that, then it would lose its credibility for generations, in all

Rubbish ! If the opponents can claim that right why cannot Israel ?
The Koran permits it, so why cannot their opponents have the same rights ?

As far as holding bodies hostage, that is about as low as you can go.
To prevent their loved ones from having the finality of burial is just
to heap cruelty upon cruelty.

There is no point in arguing the rights anyway because Islam has
demonstrated its immorality many times to non moslems.
The Garzans were very happy on 7h October and even joined in the fun.
They simply lost any rights to even handedness.
If you push nations like this then you risk a desperate nation taking
the final step of using nuclear weapons.

Bezza

Agreed. Yuyutsu wants to be 'nice', but he is really naive.

Dear Bezza,

I do not consider it to be worth risking the life of the living for mere corpses that cannot be brought back to life.

My dear ones have passed on. I have an inkling that my dear late mother now lives as a girl in the Tyrolian Alps of northern Italy. I could be wrong of course, she could be anywhere, but she certainly did not remain in the grave where her useless bones are buried, I could not find her there.

Israel, and any other country for that matter, deserves to live and thrive because it behaves better, more morally than its surrounding Islamic countries. Yes, these Islamists stoop very low, but were Israel to stoop as low as them, then I would see no reason why it should even continue to exist!

"Or are you saying they evacuated the citizens before the bombing?"
- In some cases, they told people to leave and go to a certain 'place' and then they bombed that place.
So that, as well as the executions of civilians, the deliberate starvation and parading people around in their undies (not to mention the wilful and excessive killing of women and kids) throws that 'most moral army in the world' claim into the dustbin, sorry.
- Saying it doesn't make it true.

"Rubbish ! If the opponents can claim that right why cannot Israel ?
The Koran permits it, so why cannot their opponents have the same rights ?"
- Do you hold human rights as an ideal with higher value than religious fervour?
Do you think we should murder all the Muslims just because they are Muslim?
- I'm not a friend of Islam and certainly not Wahabbism, but I won't let fear of Islam deprive me of my humanity to the point I support atrocities, no.

"The Garzans were very happy on 7h October and even joined in the fun."
- You might too if you were born and lived there, Tarzan.
You think being Islamic nullifies a right to resist an occupation and the theft of land the international community recognises as Palestinian.
You think they are angry because they are Islam, not because they are subjagated and oppressed.
If it were a different country having their land taken, you might be begging our leaders to send military aid.

"Israel, and any other country for that matter, deserves to live and thrive because it behaves better, more morally than its surrounding Islamic countries."

Treat others how you'd like to be treated, otherwise expect blowback.
The Israeli occupation relies on intelligence to be effective, and in order to have intelligence, you need informants and subjugation.

"Yes, these Islamists stoop very low, but were Israel to stoop as low as them, then I would see no reason why it should even continue to exist!"
What could they do to stoop lower?
- Rebomb the hospitals, ambulances and refugee camps again?
Dig the corpses of the women and kids up, somehow bring them back to life, and then murder them a second time?

Hi AC,

I totally agree with your take on this. I find any fundo religion, be it Islam, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, etc etc extremely dangerous. The fundamentalist wants to believe the radical bigotry and hatred, it fires their already existing prejudices against all others who not like them. Saying that, that in itself is not enough to radicalise large numbers within the faith, a combination of social and economic factors have to be present as well.

An analogy; A man gets a puppy, he beats the puppy everyday, when the puppy grows up it becomes savage. Is the animal savage because its a dog, or is it savage because it was beaten everyday. OR because it's a dog which was beaten every day? The third is a combination of the first two facts, which I agree with.

AC, you seem to have gone a little extreme.

Dear Critic,

«What could they do to stoop lower?
- Rebomb the hospitals, ambulances and refugee camps again?»

The IDF is and always been under strict orders to try and prevent civilian casualties whenever possible. Many IDF soldiers have gone to great lengths to follow these orders and as a result of trying to save civilian lives incurred more casualties than they otherwise would.
Some possibly failed to follow these orders and should any soldier ever be found to deliberately harm civilians, then they do not deserve to live and should suffer the harshest punishment.

«Treat others how you'd like to be treated, otherwise expect blowback.
The Israeli occupation relies on intelligence to be effective, and in order to have intelligence, you need informants and subjugation.»

I agree with the need to have intelligence and informants, but not with subjugation.
Israel ought to behave in ways that will win the hearts of the local population, not their fear and hatred.

UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency) claims that 5.9 million Palestinians are refugees; BUT, fewer than 200,000 of them meet the official criteria for refugee status because they were displaced by the 1948 war. The rest are children, grandchildren, and great- grandchildren that UNRWA automatically registers as refugees. 

Not only does UNRWA falsely claim funding for FAKE REFUGEES; it also uses the money of Australian taxpayers and others to print text books to teach Palestinian children to incite hatred of Israel and Jews. 

"Not only does UNRWA falsely claim funding for FAKE REFUGEES; it also uses the money of Australian taxpayers and others to print text books to teach Palestinian children to incite hatred of Israel and Jews."

- The evil thing here was putting tens of thousands at risk of starvation due to claims of a few people associated with Hamas.
- You don't put thousands of innocent lives at risk because the refugee agency had some alleged links to Hamas.

And what, the Palestinians are supposed to love the people who murder and genocide them and steal their land?
When was the last time you hugged a Australian Palestinian Muslim and said 'I'm so glad you're here", you expect the Palestinians to act that way towards the Jews who commit and support atrocities against them?
It's completely unrealistic, and I've seen Jews teach their kids to hate as well, so you are trying to say one side is better when they are as bad as each other.
You skip the finer details ttbn, but the finer details are the meat in the sandwich.

Maybe the Palestinians should provide the Israelis with tea and scones as well?
Why don't they just pull their pants down and bend over and beg to be sodomised too?

And on the other side of things...
We teach our 10 year old kids about oral and anal sex and how to question their own gender.

Parents fuming over 'graphic' sex book for kids being sold at Big W
http://www.kidspot.com.au/news/parents-fuming-over-graphic-sex-book-for-kids-being-sold-at-big-w/news-story/ea1224dc380c27bb793409aac174a46c

Don't make out like we're morally righteous in the treatment of our own kids, because we're not that much better.
We allow homosexual men and trans people to adopt and raise kids.

Today is a very happy day - two Israeli hostages were freed, men aged 60 and 70 from Kibbutz Nir Yitzhak.
They are the husband and brother of another hostage who was already released in the previous deal.
They are said to be relatively well.

They were courageously released by Israeli special forces who raided the building in which they were held in the middle of Rafah.

At the end of the day, this is the one thing which really matters!

134 more to go.

Does promoting LGBT lead to more gay or gay-tolerant adolescents, who will then never vote for conservatives?
- and have a beef with them but will only vote for a pro-gay candidate, which the elites have put in place to be elected?

It almost seems like vote rigging, where you can effectively produce non-conservative voters by pushing this LGBT agenda.

Hi AC,

I have two sons, one is gay, the other has 5 children. The gay son is a Liberal voter, the other staunch Labor. Some of my gay friends are very conservative in many of their attitudes. One of our problems is we stereotype people too often. The vast majority of people living in Gaza are first and foremost concerned with their's and their families safety, and not some religious extremism. We really can't comprehend what life is like for the vast majority under the conditions that exist there.

Hi Paul,
Well that blows my theory out of the water then doesn't it.

"We really can't comprehend what life is like for the vast majority under the conditions that exist there."
- That's true, we can only imagine, it would be like nothing anyone in this country has ever experienced.

Hi AC,

My experience with politics, not real active theses day, but have become friends with the local ALP councillor, really nice lady, and very gung-ho, as she's new at the job, being a replacement for a bloke who was 27 years in the job, resigned did a Barney, but wasn't lying in the gutter, coppers got him drunk sitting in his car 200m from home, with keys in the ignition, engine off, me thinks a "friendly" neighbour shafted him. The majority of voters have very little knowledge of the candidates, the incumbent has a bit of an advantage with their profile in the community, most others have a "profile" problem, with no recognition. Local federal member LNP, met him a coupe of times, nice guy, don't know a lot about him, other than he's into soccer.

p/s How's the Mayor out your way, still "pissed" after an AA Meeting or whatever it was. She wouldn't resign. That was a stinker, I think she crashed her car.

Dear Paul,

FYI, Israel's Knesset Speaker from Netanyahu's Right-wing Likud party, is openly homosexual. Orthodox MK's were furious when he brought his male partner to the gallery at the ceremonial opening of the Knesset as well as thanked him for all the support.

«The vast majority of people living in Gaza are first and foremost concerned with their's and their families safety, and not some religious extremism.»

I estimate some 40% are first and foremost concerned with their's and their familu's safety.
Some 10% are first and foremost concerned with extremist Islamic ideas.
Some 25% are first and foremost concerned with extremist nationalistic ideas.
Some 25% first and foremost hate Israel, even more than they care for themselves, their families, their people or their religion.

Hi Yuyutsu,

First and foremost what do you base your statistics on? In all wars the non combatants first and foremost have no control over their situation, they don't understand why they are the victims when the bombs start falling, despair, a feeling of helplessness, and loss of morale soon sets in. A prime example, Germans were very pro-war when the Nazis were having military success in the early days of WWII. BUT when the bombs started falling on German cities they quickly changed their view of the war, and wanted it to end.

"Some 25% first and foremost hate Israel, even more than they care for themselves, their families, their people or their religion."

That kind of resentment doesn't usually happen on it's own.
What is the likeliness that those people were slighted really badly?
Like something happened really bad,
- that sets in place a whole series of further events

A child whose parents were killed / maimed...
Fathers dead, mother can't take care of the child, the child has to take care of the parent, in a wheelchair, sister also dead, died of starvation and they exist in poverty.

Something that precipitates a sense of total enragement.
Something that precipitates a sense of unrelenting vengeance.

These people could be just radicalised Islamic militants;
- I dunno, but I think some of them could've been slighted really badly.
I'm not sure that level of animosity happens on it's own.

Dear Critic,

«That kind of resentment doesn't usually happen on it's own.»

No, but it is easily misdirected.

Armchair Critic,

The Palestinians have been offered time and time again a state of their own. They have refused the offer.

The question begs "Why?"

They were never offered a fair deal whitemouse...
Meanwhile the genocide continues unabated.

Airstrike from Israeli hostage rescue wipes out entire Palestinian family in Gaza border town
http://www.9news.com.au/world/israel-hamas-war-airstrike-in-hostage-rescue-killed-entire-gaza-family/284c8060-48fd-402f-b72c-b72bbca6271a

"The first thing he saw was a woman's arm that had been hurled across the street to the door of a neighboring mosque. It was his mother's. He dug through the rubble, pulling out body parts.
Later he went to the Youssef Najjar Hospital and identified the bodies of his mother and his father, Fawzi, an engineer. The body of his younger brother Mohammed had no head, but he recognized the clothes."

There's your 25% Yuyutsu
'Something that precipitates a sense of total enragement.
Something that precipitates a sense of unrelenting vengeance.'

Meanwhile, it's not enough for Israel to murder women and kids in Gaza, has to murder women and kids in other countries too?
- Just can't help themselves...

Mother, two children among Lebanese killed by Israel in air raids
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/14/mother-two-children-among-lebanese-killed-by-israel-in-air-raids

You were happy about the 2 rescued hostages Yuyutsu, but you didn't mention the 7 innocent people Israel murdered to rescue them.

Israel is the name, Murder is their game.

Dear Critic,

«They were never offered a fair deal whitemouse...»

What stopped them from first taking what they were offered, which was quite a bit, then demanding more?

Simply put, they never wanted a state of their own.

«Mother, two children among Lebanese killed by Israel in air raids»

So you expect me to believe Aljazeera?

One (and not the only) of their "journalists" who proudly reported the atrocities of October 7th, was found to be a Hamas deputy company commander himself who personally participated in the massacre. He recently lost a leg in an Israeli drone attack and could lose the other one too, which will make it harder for him to run and murder more innocent Israelis and in an awkward position to rape them, assuming he still has what with.
- http://www.ynetnews.com/article/hyie1xqja

«You were happy about the 2 rescued hostages Yuyutsu, but you didn't mention the 7 innocent people Israel murdered to rescue them.»

I have not and could not mention anything I had no knowledge of.

If your claim is correct, then I am happy for them as well, for had I been an innocent Gazan then I would prefer to be dead like them.

Also, murder requires intent, otherwise it can only be manslaughter, an act of self-defence or an accident. Have you any evidence of any intention other than to free the hostages and leave the place safely?

"So you expect me to believe Aljazeera?"

I don't know, can we trust any journalist to be unbiased when Israel is trying to assassinate them all?

"If your claim is correct, then I am happy for them as well, for had I been an innocent Gazan then I would prefer to be dead like them."
- Maybe we should be happy for the innocent Israeli dead on October 7?

No. I'm not going to be happy about ANY innocent people killed.
I'm not going to lose my humanity by picking sides.
All of these dead innocent people killed needlessly is a tragedy.
- It doesn't matter what side they're on.

"I have not and could not mention anything I had no knowledge of."
- Fair enough, my apologies.

"Also, murder requires intent, otherwise it can only be manslaughter, an act of self-defence or an accident. Have you any evidence of any intention other than to free the hostages and leave the place safely?"

'freeing the hostages and leaving the place safely' is different to
'freeing the hostages and leaving the place safely without killing innocent people'
- I've heard plenty about what Israel's really doing.

Like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Hind_Rajab

Stories like this every day.

Dear Critic,

«- Maybe we should be happy for the innocent Israeli dead on October 7?»

Actually yes:

A few minutes ago, it was revealed that Yair Yaakov from Kibbutz Nir Oz, aged 59, whose wife and two of his three children were kidnapped to Gaza and released in the previous exchange, was not kidnapped alive to Gaza as previously thought, but instead already been murdered on October 7th and only his corpse is still in Gaza (this is why Israel raided the Nasser hospital, where Hamas prisoners admitted in their investigation that at least 10 hostages and his corpse were previously held).

Yes, I feel some relief that he was not tortured in Gaza like others: I hope he had a quick death and did not suffer, which is better than the hell the other hostages experience - and yes, better also than being a Gazan under Hamas rule, both before and after October 7th.

And I can also understand why people who mistake the physical death of a body to be the death of the soul as well, think differently.

It's hard to know what's real and what isn't when Israel uses torture and forced confessions, blackmails people to make them informants and is heavy on propaganda like IDF selfies blowing crap up and parading men around in their undies claiming they are Hamas.

Hamas, like it or not, are the only people fighting for the Palestinian people - no one else cares about what's happening to them.

I'm sorry to hear that Yair Yaakov didn't make it, just as I'm sorry about the plight of many innocent Palestinians.

- Innocents aren't combatants, they're just people.
(Despite the fact Israel claims otherwise and that all Palestinians are guilty)

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1758648804230971492
IDF terrorists kidnapped and blindfolded a man then made him run back to his family before they shot him in the head.

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1756807513373397108
The IDf is going door to door slaughtering Palestinian families.
These are the real pogroms. This is the real holocaust.

http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1756697906160316898
Israeli snipers are shooting at families outside of Rafah hospital. Brave Palestinians are trying to save the baby.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1759010814994878653
'BREAKING: Head of the Turkish Relief Organization:
We have completed preparations for the launch of a naval fleet towards Gaza to break the siege imposed on its people, and the time for talking is over. We will go down to the sea, reach Gaza, and break the siege.'

Wonder if this is just talk, or if Turkey plans on getting serious?
NATO v's NATO - great unification there...

Dear Critic,

This is not NATO or Turkey, only a private NGO.

They cannot seriously hope to succeed in transferring any supplies to Gaza by sea, how less so to the starving Gazan people.

If that was what they really wanted, then their best bet would be to bring the supplies to Ashdod port for Israel to inspect it first.

They seem to seek publicity instead and from previous experience, they are looking at getting wet in the cold Mediterranean water of the northern winter.

Armchair Critic.

The Middle East Forum states regarding Aljazeera that "no serious journalist, diplomat or human rights activist should give Al Jazeera benefit of the doubt." It is a state owned network of Qatar, assisting Hamas in war against Israel.

Palestinians have no state. They have rejected EVERY offer.

Numerous times the Palestinians have been offered their own state. The first time they were offered 80% of the territory; Jews were offered 20% which they voted to accept.

5 times in the past Palestine rejected offer to have its own state. africachinapresscentre.org

If Hamas simply released the hostages and laid down their weapons there would be no more hostilities. Why don't the Palestinians look in the right direction - the problem of Hamas.

Israel is the only true democracy in the Middle East. 21% of their population are Muslim Arabs with the same rights as all Israelis. Some serve in the Knesset, some have served a Ambassadors for Israel overseas. None are screaming to leave Israel.

As usual Armchair Critic,

Your wheels are turning ... but the hampster's ded.

The ZIONISTS have corralled 1.5 million people into the concentration camp of Rafah in preparation for the final solution. 7,000 Palestinians have been taken hostage, subjected to torture and even death. ZIONIST forces are killing innocent people in the West Bank. Private ZIONIST death squads, known as Settlers, armed with American weapons supplied by the Israeli government are indiscriminately killing Palestinians. The NAZI's would be proud. Hitler could not have done a better job.

Whoever Soap Box is, he has taken leave of his senses. One of the worst anti-Semitic, ignorant rants yet. Worse even than Armchair Critic.

The US has announced that it will block another ceasefire resolution in the UN against Israel.

To be clear, the Islamists cannot accept a two state solution.
Once land held by moslems it remains Islamic land forever.
The area occupied by Israel was captured by moslem Arabs in 637 AD so
they cannot accept any part of it be divided of for Israel especially
Jews because Mohammad hated the Jews.
That is the reason they cannot accept the two state solution which is
the only solution that rational people can see !
Unfortunately Islamists are not rational, their religion forbids it.

Bezza,

Dead right. But still the ideologues and ignorant yap about that "solution". After 75 years or whatever it is, people still hoping for a two state solution are stupid, irrespective of how smart they think they are, or how influential.

Dear Bezza,

«The area occupied by Israel was captured by moslem Arabs in 637 AD so
they cannot accept any part of it be divided of for Israel especially
Jews because Mohammad hated the Jews»

There were no Muslim Arabs in 637, nor did Muhammad hate Jews - he was Christian by the way.

«Once land held by moslems it remains Islamic land forever.»

This is just one possible interpretation of the Quran.
By stating this as a fact, you might plant that idea in the minds of Muslim OLO readers.

«That is the reason they cannot accept the two state solution which is
the only solution that rational people can see !»

What about the fact that several Muslim countries, including Saudi Arabia, are urging Israel to accept the two state solution?

«Unfortunately Islamists are not rational, their religion forbids it.»

This again is just one interpretation of Islam, and not a rational one.
Have you actually seen any Islamic preacher or religious book which teaches that rationality is forbidden?

"Whoever Soap Box is, he has taken leave of his senses. One of the worst anti-Semitic, ignorant rants yet. Worse even than Armchair Critic."

You can call him Anti-Semitic is you want ttbn...
- But that doesn't necessarily mean that he's wrong or lying.

Anti-Semitic is a word used by genocide defenders..
People who get joy from the deaths of innocent women and kids
- That's the stigma it has now, it's tainted lol
Palestinians did us all a great service in ruining that word.

Using that word now is like pissing in the wind.
- You do just as much harm to your own credibility.
It's just demonstates your own bias

I told you in the beginning on this issue I support human rights
- And if forced to choose one side or the other I'm forced to support the side under occupation, they have a legitimate reason to be arseholes, excuse my french.
They don't have F-35's, smartbombs and tanks, it's not a fair fight.
It's a slaughter of innocents for land, no more, no less.
You can hardly blame people that spent their whole lives in someone else's concentration camp, (they're born there and they die there) and know nothing else.
Jews should know better since once upon a time it was them being persecuted, before they decided they wanted the land that other people already lived on.

"The US has announced that it will block another ceasefire resolution in the UN against Israel."
- Of course they will.

Told you the other day Biden is beholden to his Jewish donors, and likely Trump will be too.
And if you weren't such a shill, you might actually realise this is foreign interference in the domestic policies of another country.

Dear Critic,

«before they decided they wanted the land that other people already lived on.»

Have you ever purchased a house?

«Told you the other day Biden is beholden to his Jewish donors»

The fact that you made some statement earlier, even if indeed you did, does not imply that the contents of that statement are also correct. You probably know this already, but it demonstrates how the designation of Israel as a "Jewish state" was a tragic mistake that hurts both Israel and Jews who live elsewhere (and may not even support Israel).

LIVE: ICJ opens historic hearings into Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories
http://www.youtube.com/live/ve7nzaoCJeo

Dear Critic,

«ICJ opens historic hearings into Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories»

I wish them every success and so pray about half of the Israelis.

It's not that the "Palestinians" are right and innocent, it's not that they really want independence or to live in peace - they do not: their leaders even prefer that Israel continues to harass, displace and sometimes even kill, the ordinary "Palestinians", so that they can continue to blame and fight Israel until it disappears completely - they do not want their own people to be happy - they prefer them to become miserable martyrs.

Nevertheless, Israel fell into that trap and does exactly what these "Palestinian" leaders expect it to do: it has given free reign in the West Bank to a bloody gang of land-greedy terrorist Messianic Jews.

Please help the good Israelis rid themselves of that terror and the burden of Israel's occupied territories!

Just please, please, don't throw out the baby with the dirty bath-water.

I just want people to be able to live in peace, have a family and happy constructive fulfilling and dignified lives without being bombed to pieces or having the decisions of foreigners imposed upon them.
- And I say that without any prejudice to either side.

If America wasn't trying to sanction, undermine and overthrow other countries leaders in a zero-sum global conquest game (an innocents weren't suffering because of it), I wouldn't be opposed to what they do.

I think nation to nation relations should be based on mutual respect (not one side issuing directives to what it considers its subordinates), the same as people to people relations should be based on mutual respect.

It's the same reason why I don't like the Jewish religions aims to rule of all other nations in a religious theocracy.
- But that argument carries equally for Islam.

I think the Palestinians should have their own state, and an opportunity to improve their lots and live in peace as well.

To say that the deaths of innocents is unavoidable, is to make the same argument that conflict is unavoidable.

Conflict CAN be avoided if both sides sit down like adults and work out their differences without raising the stakes to a level where innocent people are being blown to bits.

Antisemitism and all other hatreds have no place in this country.

Armchair Critic promotes all the lies and old tropes against Jews.

There are many fact check sites online, however, those like AC are so embedded against Jews that he would never access them. Also if as he says Jews control the world of over 8 billion people and they just number 15 million. WoW!!

But we all know AC's hampster is dead, in fact, quite putrid.

We have a new antisemite on the line. Soap Box is intent of inciting hatred against Jews. Thankfully ASIO, under the National Security Legislation Amendment Bill of 2014 can access networks of all internet services and networks of all computers. Undoubtedly Soap Box has not escaped their radar.

Armchair Critic,

I suspect you have problems taking in information.

Palestinians have been offered their own state numerous times. The first time they were offer 80% of the territory, Israel agreed to accept 20%. The Palestinians refused. Yet offer were made again and again.

5 times in the past Palestinians rejected offer to have their own state.
africachinapresscentre.org

Perhaps their is some factor why Palestinians act this way. Perhaps they feel they are better served being under the auspices of Israel.

I would like to see Palestinian documents from that time. I am sure they would be enlightening.

Dear Critic,

I cannot deny that there are some despicable people in Israel and its government who have genocidal attitudes, but this is not what the Israeli army is ordered to do - I thought it may interest you to read today's missive of the IDF chief of staff to his troops.

“We act like human beings and, unlike our enemy, maintain our humanity. We must be careful not to use force where it is not required, to distinguish between a terrorist and those who are not, not to take anything that is not ours — a souvenir or weapons — and not to film revenge videos,... We are not on a killing spree, revenge, or genocide. We have come to win and defeat a cruel enemy, who deserves a bitter loss”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-chief-in-message-to-troops-unlike-our-enemy-we-maintain-our-humanity/

You know what sickens me more than anything I've seen since October 7.
People like you Whitemouse, you're scum of the earth.

And I'm going to tell you why.
You see people like you come out all gung-ho with a big mouth.
- But I haven't just been buying into 'tropes'.
You see that's what someone like you says, when they want to criticise someone like me, who criticises Israel.

The problem is I don't just read the news, no.
I've seen all the footage, even shared it ALL on the FORUM
People assassinated in the street, women and kids.
Kids with their brains blown out and blood spurting all over the wall.
I've heard the testimonies about executions from the IDF soldiers
I've seen the Israeli kids taught to hate, 3 year olds whose first sentences they're taught are
'When I grow up I'm going to be a soldier and kill the Arabs'
Murdering and executing people for the last 80 years.
Raping them so they become informants
Bragging about killing Palestinians on social media
Shooting kids for throwing rocks.
Running over people with tanks.
Burning them, putting them in cages
Mocking and demeaning them.
Tipping feces and urine on them.
Using them for organ harvesting.
Cutting off their food water and electricity.
Dropping smart bombs on the most populated civilian areas on earth.
Words of hate from the government and the people
Assassinating journalists, doctors, paramedics
Holding people in prisons indefinitely without charge torturing people
Making Palestinians sing the Israeli national anthem
Stripping people to take their dignity.

This isn't even close to the tip of the iceberg.

And what's all about?
- Stealing Land, that's it.

People like you say I'm the bad person for daring to speak against it.
Well it's you that defends murder and genocide
You're WORSE than the people who commit these things.

I support humanity, you defend and justify the most heinous atrocities committed in the last half century.
This is by far the most disgusting example of human behavior that I've ever seen in my life.
- People like you.

And FYI, my family has been in this country since the 1810's and I also have indigenous in me.
My Great Grandfather won a Distinguished Service Order as a 1st Australian Lighthorseman taking that land from the Ottomans, it was even called the second battle of GAZA, and he fought alongside Palestinians.
The others know I'm not lying.
He didn't do that so that others could stain it with the blood of innocents for eternity,
So as far as I'm concerned, my ANZAC forefathers (and others in this country, both before and after) already fought for my right to say whatever the feck I want in those county, especially so on this topic, long before Jews came here trying to escape Europe and Hitler.
You don't get to tell me jack shite.
So you can just go feck yourself.

I've already argued every argument the Pro-Israel side has come up with previously.
- And left them with no moral leg to stand on every single time, so I'm not going to bother doing it again for you.

Why don't you buy a ticket to Israel, go kill some Palestinian women and kids, and bloody well stay there.
- Don't come back, you belong with them.

Hi Yuyutsu,

“We act like human beings and, unlike our enemy, maintain our humanity. We must be careful not to use force where it is not required, to distinguish between a terrorist and those who are not, not to take anything that is not ours — a souvenir or weapons — and not to film revenge videos,... We are not on a killing spree, revenge, or genocide. We have come to win and defeat a cruel enemy, who deserves a bitter loss”

I'd like to believe this is genuine, but I just find it hard to do so.
Are they not just empty words?
I feel like it's more to do with ICJ than a genuine internal will to act in a righteous or ethical manner.
- All I've seen is internal hate.

Like I told you a week or so back:
Saying 'Israel is the most moral army in the world' doesn't necessarily make it true.
I've seen the assassinations of women and kids.

I'm wondering now whether or not WhiteMouse was the poster a while back that said he was inside a theatre when it was attacked by Palestinian militants.
If so, I guess I can understand him feeling strongly about things, but I'm not saying sorry.
Maybe he should understand others also feel strongly against what Israel is doing.

And even if he was a first-hand witness to Palestinian atrocities, Maybe it's about time he realised that what happened there was a response for something Israel had done to the Palestinians, previously and the cycle of violence just goes on and and on forever...

And it's going to keep going on, more Israelis will become victims or witnesses to more atrocities until these people get their own state.
It's Israel that created this situation and prevents them having their own state, so it should not complain when the oppressed rise up.
- Beyond that, I denounce all violence against non-combatants.

You know what I think Yuyutsu?
You're right you know about taking that land post 1967.
Israel has brought all hell down on itself taking it.
It's found itself in a predicament where if it continues on the course it's on it will result in being the cause of it's own destruction.

Israel is not going to give the land it took back, and the Palestinians are not going to stop resisting and fighting because of it.
It worked well, doing what you were doing in the past
- But now we're in an age of drone warfare.
Even the Houthi can hit Tel Aviv with missiles.

This attitude of bringing all hell and retribution down upon the Palestinians whenever they act out against the oppression they've already been placed under is going to be the end of Israel.
- I say this with no malice against you or your family in Israel.

Dear Critic,

«Israel is not going to give the land it took back, and the Palestinians are not going to stop resisting and fighting because of it.»

Yes, the fish is not going to give the fishing-line back and the fisherman is not going to stop resisting and fighting... not because they want their dear fishing-line back, but because they want the fish!

In 1967, Israel fell for that trap of land - hook, line, and sinker!

While you in Australia feel sorry for every innocent person losing their lives, the "leaders" of both sides are very happy about the situation, they cry outwardly and smile inwardly whenever their people are killed - that serves their only purpose, to prolong their rule.

And apart from the leaders, yes there are also groups of dangerous fanatics on both sides, only about 10%, who unlike both their cynical leaders and the majority of the people, are actually brainwashed to believe that God ordered them to grab all the land. The leaders are happy to use their services too.

«Saying 'Israel is the most moral army in the world' doesn't necessarily make it true.
I've seen the assassinations of women and kids.»

Unlike professional armies, the IDF is comprised of Israelis from all walks of life.
While most soldiers obey their orders, the above 10% use being called to the army as an opportunity to forward their own agenda. A few others also use being called to the army as an opportunity to satisfy their own private sadism.

The difference between the IDF and other armies, is that whenever such soldiers are caught, they are immediately dismissed and in the more severe cases are arrested and brought to justice.

I would not normally respond to rubbish a RAT might post about me but this attempted silencing through intimidation is too much.

We have a new antisemite on the line. Soap Box is intent of inciting hatred against Jews. Thankfully ASIO, under the National Security Legislation Amendment Bill of 2014 can access networks of all internet services and networks of all computers. Undoubtedly Soap Box has not escaped their radar. OH GOD, THIS JERK OFF KNOWS BIG BROTHER AND THE SECRET POLICE! Well I'm shaking in my boots, was that a knock on the door, no just the RAT running up a drain pipe?

Fella, do you know what RATS do a lot of, you are full of it.

Hi Armchair Critic, well said, and don't be intimidated by some fool RAT on here trying to big note itself.

There have been Jewish settlers in Australia since the early 1800's the Synagogue in Hobart dates then.

The famous General Sir John Monash, GCMG, KCB, VD was a Jew.
,
Muslim cameleers to whom we owe a great debt settled in Australia in the 1860's.

The Australian Human Rights Commission states "We condemn people who incite racial hatred"

Australia is one of the most successful multicultural countries in the world.

AUSTRALIA'S MULTICULTURAL STATEMENT.

Australians look like every face, every race, every background. We define ourselves and our nation by our commitment to shared political values, democracy, freedom and use of law.

We are as old as our First Australians and yet we are as young as the baby in the arms of her migrant mother, who could have come from any nation, any faith, any race. We are an immigrant nation.

Lack of mutual respect and racism is incompatible with Australian society.

Australia owes its accomplishments to the contributions of more than 300 different ancestries from the First Australians to the newest arrivals.

Australian values - equality of men and women, commitment to freedom-
support of freedom of thought, speech, religion, religious enterprise and association.

Israel has been a force for good in the world.

Ask any one of the thousands of lives saved by Israeli rescue teams.

Ask any one who has benefited from drip irrigation... or Israel's medical technology, or Israeli computer technology, or Israeli water reclamation techniques... or any of a dozen other benefits.

Accept Israel exists and will continue to exist and to contribute to our world in many, many ways.

WhiteMouse,

Its not a matter of placing the good on one side of the scales, and the bad on the other, and letting them cancel each other out. The fact the Israelis have murdered 30,000 innocent Palestinians, mostly women and children, is in no way mitigated by "drip irrigation", "technology" or "water reclamation techniques", chocolate bars or chests full of gold. No more than one can say Hitlers autobahns cancels out, Hitler's murder of 6 million Jews and others. Just as autobahns cancel none of Hitlers murders, drip feeders cancels none of the Palestinians murdered by the Israelis.

BTW; What number of Palestinian deaths do you equate to "drip feeders" ? I'm interested in your answer.

Hi Yuyutsu,
Good comments

"The difference between the IDF and other armies, is that whenever such soldiers are caught, they are immediately dismissed and in the more severe cases are arrested and brought to justice."
- I'd say that right now, there are quite a lot of IDF that require 'justice' from atrocities committed.

What happens when US airman opposed to Israels genocide are ordered to prepare for combat duty in Israel, bombing innocent people in Gaza?

- This

Airman dies lighting himself on fire, saying 'free Palestine' outside Israeli Embassy
http://abcnews.go.com/US/man-critical-condition-after-setting-fire-israeli-embassy/story?id=107531773

Dear Critic,

«- I'd say that right now, there are quite a lot of IDF that require 'justice' from atrocities committed.»

I'd humbly say that I don't know how many there are, whether few or many, that I hope that if indeed any IDF soldiers commits atrocities then they will be found and brought to justice, and wonder how you come to know any better about it in this fog of battle.

«What happens when US airman opposed to Israels genocide are ordered to prepare for combat duty in Israel, bombing innocent people in Gaza?»

I also am opposed to Israel's genocide, should any ever occur.

As for Aaron's orders, he was stationed in Washington and was responsible there for cyber-defence. Though American cyber operations are administratively attached to air-force command, I doubt he ever flew a plane, or how his superiors would ever allow it while knowing about his history in a strict fundamentalist Christian cult.

Actual air-men are self-motivated, eager to perform their missions and compete among them for being assigned - unlike ground troops who at times (especially Russian conscripts) are helplessly sent out as cheap cannon-fodder, no air-force allows unmotivated people to fly its expensive jets, which once up in the air could easily reverse their targets.

I could well believe that prior to his suicide, Aaron has been speaking to friends about being ordered into secret operations in Gaza's tunnels, just as I heard of someone who speaks of evil demons with horns chasing him and trying to grab him down to hell... and wish him speedy recovery.

Soldiers can (and do) refuse illegal orders.
Pilots who were ordered to bomb places against their conscience, historically defected and landed in other countries, including in Israel.
An order to PREPARE for combat duty, even against civilians, is not illegal.
American forces are known to operate near Israel in order to prevent an escalation of the war into Lebanon, turning it into a second Gaza. Their idea is to deter Hezbollah, and drills where they PREPARE for combat, both above and below ground, are routine and legitimate.