Must Jews always see themselves as victims?

Surely this can't be a healthy state of mind?

If Jews continue to define themselves by past
persecutions, by their victimhood - will they
ever really fit into any society worldwide or
will they continue to -
create the image of being "the other?"
The poor victim?

I'm not suggesting that they forget their history.
Or ignore anti-Semitism. But there is more than
just a dark side to Jewish history.

There is much
joy, and tradition that also needs to be taught
and recognized. Not just have the emphasis placed
on past persecutions.

Emphasis should also be taught on positive achievements
and accomplishments world wide.

By all means tackling ant-Semitism is important.
But so is positivity - and being valued as citizens
of the countries in which one resides.

Victimhood after a while must get exhausting.

http://jewishedproject.org/news/always-victim

Well, they are victims, and have always been the victims of unhinged hatred. And they are hardly going to ‘forget’ their history when it continues to extend into the here and now. Anti-Semitism is as strong now as it ever was. Jews are certainly “always the victim”. And it is nothing new for anti-Semites to blame them for their own persecution!

We hear a lot about ‘blaming the victim’ from the Left; but it's OK for them to blame Jews for the hatred they are subjected to.

After all those historical pogroms I suppose that it is not
unreasonable to consider yourself a victim when you see it again.
The result is a no nonsense defence policy.
When Islam was started they adopted the Jews as an enemy and someone
who had to be killed. They built a hatred of Jews into the Koran and
made it blasphemy to change a word on pain of death.
So we are stuck with it while ever Islam exists.
Foxy, it really is as simple as that !

Bezza

Good points. It would be a very peculiar Jew who didn't feel that he had to be looking over his shoulder constantly - even in Australia, given the comments and behaviour that has oozed up here since multiculturalism and the increasing radicalisation of the Left.

Hi Bezza,

Historically there were genocides and those have been
historically attested. However they should not be presented
as a false image that this is an ever present danger and
everywhere.

Also, I don't think it is victimization when you are being
held accountable for your actions.

Foxy,

The problem is not that the Israelis are victims of Hamas atrocities, it is because they have taken action to stop this from happening again and the Gazan militants who committed these atrocities are now hiding behind women and children and claiming to be victimised.

Well, they are victims, and have always been the victims of unhinged hatred.
ttbn,
On the other hand there doesn’t seem to be any visible effort from them to make themselves less of a target either.

Dear Foxy,

«Surely this can't be a healthy state of mind?»

Spot on.

Feeling a "victim" is an unhealthy state of mind because it is living a lie.
Nobody can ever be a victim.
Nobody can ever victimise others.
We all only receive the results of our previous actions, nothing less, nothing more.
Blaming others for what we deserved only serves in closing our eyes to our responsibility for our present and future actions.

Thank You for all your comments.

I'm trying to make sense of it all so that
I can better understand things.

I used to see Jewish history as "all darkness and
no light." With the collapse of communism in
Eastern Europe and the USSR - the suppression of
Jewish religious practice and cultural expression
came to an end.

More than 2 million Jews were finally free to choose
to be Jewish or not. An astonishing number chose
Jewishness and a remarkable revival of Jewish life
began.

Many decades on that revival continues but the world's
response to Israel's war on Gaza and the rise in
antiSemitic incidents in a number of countries since
the war began has led many to paint a very dark
picture of the current Jewish predicament - making
one wonder - is the paranoia justified?

Large group identity becomes stronger upon perceived
attacks or threats and these perceived attacks generate
collective victimhood.

Regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict -
overcoming the narrative of victimhood and
decreasing the level of self-righteousness
which both sides embrace is a pre-requisite
for making some of the tough compromises
involved in reaching a workable solution to
this long lasting, drawn out conflict.

"Anti-Semitism is as strong now as it ever was."
- Perhaps not strong enough.

I was just watching a video showing how Israel has been robbing the corpses of killed Palestinians for organ harvesting.

Max Blumenthal: (TheGrayZone) - What the IDF Did on Christmas
http://www.youtube.com/live/zYlAYU4r66c

Last night I watched a video about South Africa taking Israel to the ICJ for genocide, not that anything will come of it because of a US veto.

Genocide Case SUBMITTED to International Court Of Justice!!
http://youtu.be/JyrfqlxRaFo

The US themselves are helping facilitate this genocide with weapons they provide.

(OMG, someone dare tell the truth)

You can all continue with your Anti-Semitic accusations / brainfarts, trying to whitewash Israels crimes against humanity.
I didn't criticise or persecute Jews for centuries, I'm not responsible for anything that ever happened to them.
Take yer 'Anti-Semite' and shove it, it's not even a proper word that means anything.

But I will criticise what they do just the same as I would if anyone else was doing it.
And I don't care what the many grovelling lapdogs here say about it.

"The problem is not that the Israelis are victims of Hamas atrocities, it is because they have taken action to stop this from happening again and the Gazan militants who committed these atrocities are now hiding behind women and children and claiming to be victimised."

Such weak arguments.

Lets say the Palestinians are completely guilty of using human shields
(Forget the inconvenient truth in your argument that you are accusing them of being human shields but they are in their own homes, or seeking medical assistance in local hospitals... and Israel is bombing them in their own homes and in the hospitals charter boat you bloody moron)

Even if Palestinians are using human shields;
That doesn't necessarily make it ok to kill those innocent people!
- "If I have to kill the human shields it'll be your fault"
Stop making excuses for your own wrongdoing, you're not destroying Hamas, just killing innocent people.

Israel hasn't even captured a single member of Hamas to parade through the town like Jesus. All they do is capture a few middle aged working class men, get them to strip and carry some weapons, there's no rapes or beheadings, it's all made up.

Israel has achieved nothing except kill it's own people on OCT 7, kill thousands of innocent people in revenge, earning itself official accusations of genocide, they've sent thousands more of it's own IDF in to be killed and wounded.

And it begs the world for help
"We need money and weapons" they demand -
And all this, for what?
For a mess it created itself 100 years ago and the suffering they routinely impose on others which continues to this day.

Israel is an apartheid state that deliberately murders women and kids.
Right now its killing thousands more with starvation.

I hope the world never lets Israel forget what its been doing.
They are a genocidal state and what they do should not be forgotten.

I hope the world never lets Israel forget what its been doing.
Armchair Critic,
I don’t believe it will be possible for the World to forget the insanity that is the Middle East & what many ME people are doing there & throughout the World.
Ask the Germans whose regret & guilt has brought on their own downfall.

Baldrick you moron why do you always support terrorists and dictators?

It has been acknowledged by the UN and pretty much every OECD country that Hamas is using civilians to shield its soldiers weapons etc. The tunnels and command centres under schools, hospitals etc put paid to any doubt on the issue.

According to the rules of war, enemy combatants, command centres etc are always legitimate targets irrespective of whether there are civilians present. This is why using civilians as human shields is a war crime. So when pinheads such as yourself declare Israeli actions war crimes, it is based on pure ignorance and stupidity and ignores the war crimes committed by Hamas.

Back to the topic of victimhood.

There's an interesting article in Scientific American
by Scott Barry Kaufman who writes that - "Those who have a
perpetual victimhood mindset tend to believe that their life
is entirely under the control of forces outside their self."

Which is not a healthy state to be in because it can result in
constantly seeking recognition of one's victimhood.

Kaufman explains that it can result in moral elitism, the lack
of empathy for the pain and suffering of others, and in
frequently rumminating about past victimisation.

There's more at the following link:

http://scientificamerican.com/article/unraveling-the-mindset-of-victimhood/

Kaufman says that:

"We're all human with the same underlying needs to belong,
to be seen, to be heard, and to matter."

"Seeing reality as clearly as possible is an essential step
along a path to shed the perpetual victimhood mindset for
something more productive, constructive, hopeful and
amenable to building positive relationships with others."

Dear Critic,

Could we not agree that Israel HAS to do roughly what it does now in order to survive?
Could we not agree that Israel HAD to do roughly what it did in 1948 in order to survive?

Certainly, the attitude of SOME Israelis and their present government is shocking.
Certainly, SOME of Israel's outlying actions could and should be corrected.
Certainly, you are doing Israel a favour by pointing out such actions and attitudes.

But at the end of the day, SUPPOSE you found yourself in Israel's situation and SUPPOSE you wanted to survive - would you not be doing essentially the same with only some minor modifications on the humane side?

You are lucky indeed to be in Australia where you do not need to make such difficult moral choices - to kill or to be killed.

No, as I just told Foxy, I do not believe in luck, which is only a superficial observation - I do believe that everyone gets precisely what they deserve, and that also includes the poor Gazans who have nowhere to flee, as well as the Israelis who need to face such unenviable moral dilemmas, to kill or to be killed, to bomb or to be raped.

You show compassion for the Gazans alright, but why not for the Israelis who are just as cornered?

Suppose your "luck", born of previous good deeds, eventually runs out so that next time over, after a long and comfortable life that I wish you in Australia for the coming year and thereafter, you are born into similar hard dilemmas as Israelis face: would you then rather receive my compassion or my scorn?

Yuyutsu,

We have to keep in mind the importance of facts.
We need to take a look at what much of the
mainstream media has delighted in obliterating -
the context of Israel's colonial violence, the
politics that sustain it and how Israel's right
to defend itself is an attack against the
Palestinians legitimate anti-colonial resistance.

What we get told - while Gaza is bombarded and
Palestinians are murdered, injured and forcibly
displaced - is Israel's security narrative- which
dominates the international diplomatic discourse.

Where the rhetoric fails to laud Israel's
rights to defend itself Israeli diplomats quickly step in.
As happened with the Vatican according to a Reuters
report - "I would like to hear stronger words about
Israel's right to defend itself," Israeli Ambassador to
the Vatican stated.

Israel would have everyone believe that it's the Palestinians
that are the problem. Especially Hamas.

The historical context of Israel's colonial violence
and its politics tells a different story.

Dear Foxy,

We could sit down over a nice cup of tea to discuss Israel's colonial violence, which I too strongly oppose. Not just I, but dare I say also the majority of Israeli civilians who were murdered, wounded, raped and kidnapped on October 7th.

Hamas wouldn't care what I think or believe in, they would have killed me just as well and just as cruelly had I been there that day, maybe partying that night for peace on that hill.

But then there are those, including in this forum, who believe that Israel itself is a form of colonial violence, and that its people should have no spot on earth to place their feet on, that just being born an Israeli itself is a crime against humanity. They are entitled to their view, I just wish that they would be more explicit about it.

I do not give a damn about "Israel's right to defend itself", because Israel will continue to defend itself whether or not it has such "right".

«What we get told - while Gaza is bombarded and
Palestinians are murdered, injured and forcibly
displaced»

That is mostly true, except for the word "murdered": murder requires a deliberate intent to kill and I do not believe that to be the case.

Obviously, should any such bad apples who deliberately murder Gazans be caught, then they should be treated exactly like any other murderer.

«Israel would have everyone believe that it's the Palestinians
that are the problem. Especially Hamas.»

Ultimately no problems exist - only situations.
Considering any situation problematic, is only subjective, in the mind of the perceiver.

Clearly many Israelis perceive the "Palestinians" to be THEIR problem, while many others take on Israel and its existence to be THEIR problem. No contradiction there, it's totally subjective.

I admit that I too consider these "Palestinians" as a problem due to my totally subjective desire to see my family in Israel live and be happy in their homes.

There is a fair bit of ignorance being posted here. There is disagreement as usual. Normal stuff. We all have our own beliefs and biases.

But, the hatred, anti-Semitism, anti-Israel filth coming from Armchair Critic is beyond the pale. Most of it lies. Unforgivable. Sick. Insane.

People are people, but when you adopt the "You people" philosophy, it allows you to make wonderful generalisations on an invalid basis, generalisations like "Jews always play the victim". The young fellow excitedly informing his proud parents of the ten Jews he'd just murdered was an adherent of the philosophy, as was Goebbels with his production of timeless classics like "The Eternal Jew".

Margaret Thatcher used to shut down "You people" hatred by asking "Can you name them?". "Tarred with the same brush." is another expression for it. Jew hatred would be impossible were it not for the "You people" philosophy.

Fester

Quite right. But nothing will turn an anti-Semite. Hatred of Jews has been ingrained over millennia. The modern hatred, never far below the surface, rears up everytime Israel has to defend itself from Islam. Jews are not expected to defend themselves like everyone else. It is always their fault that they are attacked.

Nazis killed 6 million Jews. Now Islam wants to kill approximately 7 million of them in Israel; but - somehow, according to the haters - it's the Jews’ own fault.

Lunatics yap about Israeli “genocide”. It is Islam that is intent on genocide. They are just not good enough at it yet, but they will keep trying, and the usual suspects like Albanese and Wong - in our case - will try to help them by calling on Israel to cease fire.

Charter boat,
"The tunnels and command centres under schools, hospitals etc put paid to any doubt on the issue."

Oh not more lies again, all you have to do is open your mouth and the bullcrap just falls out...

Still waiting for the footage of these command centres...
You know why there's no footage?
It's simple, it's bs.

You know how Israel KNEW there were tunnels under Al Shifa?
- Because it built them in 1983, but Hamas blocked them up.

No command centre under the hospital, and this is important... why?
Because it shows one of 2 things, either Israeli intelligence is extremely unreliable, or they are making the claims up to justify what they are doing when they go in. Just like the rapings, baby beheadings and all the other fake / staged things which were made up.

In any case it doesn't change the war crimes / deliberate targeting of civilians and journalists.

Hi Yuyutsu,

"Could we not agree that Israel HAS to do roughly what it does now in order to survive?"

'in order to survive' Mmmm...
- Tell me do Hamas have F-35s and smart bombs they're launching on apartment buildings in Tel Aviv?
Are we talking about Israels's survival or Netanyahu's?
Does Israel REALLY need to murder and starve so many innocent people 'in order to survive'?
"Could we not agree that Israel HAD to do roughly what it did in 1948 in order to survive?"
Well, if you always do as you've always done, then you'll always get what you'll always got, right?

Israel / Jews seem to have this iron-fisted 'never-again' attitude, where they meter out extreme disproportionate revenge attacks upon any Palestinian who dares to resist amongst an entire group of people that Israel routinely subjugates and oppresses.

You know what I think?
This iron-fisted 'never-again' attitude
the routine subjugation, oppression, imprisonments without charge, the tortures, burning their crops, poisoning their wells, the executions by the IDF and settlers, invading peoples homes at 2am, bulldozing their homes, cutting off their food and water, harvesting the organs of the dead, killing journalists, killing women and kids, dropping bombs on hospitals and ambulances, targeting residential apartment buildings, IDF shooting women in churches... all of it...

I think Israel is doing it's utmost best to make 'never-again' inevitable.
ABSOLUTELY, UNDOUBTEDLY, WITHOUT QUESTION - INEVITABLE.

So maybe you should try and find a Plan B and consider something else.
For me, I think the Netanyahu government has to go for starters and the IDF need to suffer some kind of serious military defeat before the country will ever change.

[Cont.]
Go ahead and do what you did in 1948 again and see where that leads.
1948 might just lead to 1967, which will then lead to 1973... and before you know it we'll have done the same thing all over again.
Should we really try to do the same thing again and expect a different outcome?
Can we not maybe try and do something different?
Maybe get a different (and hopefully better) outcome this time?

What would it take to get a different outcome than this one?
Something other than the 'endless bloodshed of innocents' thing.
Do we really have to keep doing this same thing over and over?

If Hezbollah start launching thousands of missiles all across Israel, what would you expect my response to be then?
'Maybe Israel shouldn't have killed all those Palestinian women and kids so vengefully then?
'Israel made its bed, now it can sleep in it'?
'Play stupid games, win stupid prizes'?

I support diplomacy, negotiations and compromise over conflict.
Try to find another way that doesn't involve so many dead innocent people.
That would please me.

"That is mostly true, except for the word "murdered": murder requires a deliberate intent to kill and I do not believe that to be the case."

Hows does one drop a bomb with enough destructive power to destroy an entire city block of multiple buildings Yuyutsu
- How does one drop a bomb with that much destructive power on places such as schools, hospitals, churches etc.
- and then make the argument 'they did not intend to kill'?
It's ridiculous to suggest they 'do not intend to kill'.
Not only that, they use AI apps for military applications, that have detailed maps of the whole of Gaza, every apartment building and all occupants who live there, so they can simulate a bomb detonating in a certain place and with a certain destructive power, and they can get an accurate projection of the amount of people likely to be killed and wounded.

Israel knows the likely number of dead and wounded of every strike before they even launch it.

Good Morning and
Happy New Year Everyone!
Let us hope that this year will be a better one.

I have read all of your posts and am grateful for
your sharing your opinions in this discussion.
I don't agree that criticisizing Israel makes you
a Jew-hater or that it's anti-Semitic to do so.
Many Jews are also critical of Israel. And Israel's
long standing status as the victim in the eyes of
the global community has gradually eroded since
the first intifada (1987 - 1993).

It has proven increasingly difficult to rebuild.

Today- Israel's efforts to assert its right to
self-defence that labels Hamas as a terrorist
group has encountered severe pushback.

Many views these claims as thinly veiled attempts
to divert attention from Israel's historical track
record of pursuing colonialist, discriminatory and
aggressive policies against Palestinians dating back
to its foundation more than seven decades ago.

Much of the lying and misinformation that sustains anti-Semitism and hatred of Israel is generated by the United Nations, one of the the main culprits being its agency UNRWA, the United Nations Work and Relief Agency, co-funded by Australia to the tune of $20 million a year. There is also a begging web page where individual fools can be parted from their money.

. This agency cheered the terror attack, massacre and rape by Hamas Israeli civilians on October 7.
. Since then, UNRWA has continually spread misinformation and propaganda about Israeli military actions, while staying quiet about Hamas atrocities. (our own hate-speaker on OLO copies them).
. The schools run by UNRWA are depots for Hamas arms. Hamas uses the schools as bases.
. UNRWA tweets lies easily accessed by hate-speakers globally as well as Australia.
. They claimed that 20,000 civilians had been killed in Gaza, when the official report from the the Gazan Ministry of Health report 8,000 deaths - all Hamas terrorists.
. UNRWA calls for ceasefires by Israel, but never calls for Hamas to stop fighting.
. UNRWA lies about Israel interfering with civilian aid, when Hamas deliberately blocks aid and steals it from its own people.

As for all the UNRWA whining about civilians being killed, Hamas terrorists have caused the deaths by embedding themselves where civilians live, and in schools and hospitals. The humanitarian advice by Israel to civilians to move before military action occurs is called ‘forced displacement’ by these UNRWA creeps.

Another UNRWA lie is the one about Gaza enduring the ‘worst humanitarian crisis in the region’, when other Islamic-caused conflicts have been much worse:
. 300,000 civilians killed in Syria
. 14 million Syrians had to flee.
. In Yemen, 4.5 million displaced. 21 million in dire need.

But, when Jewish Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East is involved, the lies are never ending; lies that are believed by hate-speakers, weirdos and morons - and Armchair Critic.

It's becoming clear to many that Israel has waged a
ruthless campaign on land, sea, and air cutting off
Gaza's access to essentials such as water, electricity,
fuel, food and medicine, systematically demolishing their
homes, hospitals, schools, and infrastructure.

There is a direct consequence of this brutality,
involving the mass killing of Palestinians through Israel's
vast arsenal of weapons and ammunition.

What's worse Israel has made little attempt to conceal
its actions. Instead it has orchestrated the annihilation
of a people before the eyes of the world - a genocide
that is virtually unparalleled, and comparable only
to the horrors perpetrated by Nazis during the second world
war.

It now appears as though Israel - a state that claims to
represent Jews worldwide is mirroring the behaviour of its
Nazi oppressors. And as many Jews worldwide and in Israel
cry - "Not in my name you don't!"

The global community is waking up. Wide-spread demonstrations
in capitals and major cities of Western countries including -
Washington, New York, London, Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Vienna,
Amsterdam, Istanbul, Jordon, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Sydney,
Melbourne, among others have all shown support for the
Palestinian cause.

Powerful slogans echo across the streets demanding an end to
the genocidal war against Palestinians.

Protestors emphasize people's right to life, freedom, equality,
and dignity. Universal principles that should apply to all
human beings regardless of their geographic location or
ethnicity.

Claiming that all this is a form of self-defence - and having
a victimhood stance - no longer works from such a relentless
powerfully armed and strong state who's gone above and beyond
any acceptable retaliation.

Israel never in its 75th year history has previously
found itself
isolated and ostracized across the world including in the
West and among Jewish citizens as it is today. This is the
direct consequence of its continued brutality and insistence
that it will keep on doing what it is doing.

It's too frightening to contemplate what could happen next
if this does not stop.

As for the claim that Israel is the only democracy in
the Middle East?

This has no historical foundation.

One has to only do the research to learn about how
Israel has treated and continues to treat, its non-Jewish
citizens to military rule based on draconian regulations
that deny Palestinians basic human rights or civil rights.

The appalling acts of Palestinians and Arab
terrorists can't be ignored. And their cruelty, insanity,
and murder are facts. But we need to ask ourselves - why?

Of course when you criticize Israel - you get all sorts of
labels thrown at you. You're not allowed to be critical
of Israel. That is beginning to change as people
are slowly waking up to the truth.

The Law of Return states that any Jew born anywhere in the
world can go and live in Israel. No Palestinian can. This
is wrong. It is not acceptable. And criticizing Israel for
it does not make anyone a Jew-hater. It means that someone sees
the wrongs and wants them to be fixed.

Foxy

As I have said there is "no turning anti-Semites". You are the proof of that statement. You just keep on searching for "references" that suit your bigotry. You and Armchair Critic are a sour and bitter pair.

ttbn,

I'm so sorry you feel this way.

However I believe, along with many historians, journalists,
authors,political commentators, as well as so many people
worldwide including Israelis and Palestinians,
that a true and unbiased understanding
of the past does offer the possibility of peace.

Whereas the distortion and manipulation of history, in contrast
as Prof. Ilan Pappe points out - will only sow
disaster.

Prof. Pappe says that
historical disinformation
- even of the most recent past can do tremendous harm.
He tells us that this wilfull misunderstanding of history and
current events can promote oppression and protect a regime of
colonization and occupation.

Pappe says that it is not surprising therefore that policies
of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play
an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little
hope for the future.

I believe that people have to face up to the moral implications
of their actions. Truth is not that hard to see if you open
your eyes. I don't buy what's has been repeated endlessly in
the media - and what has been enforced by the military and
accepted without question by the world's governments - reinforcing
the regional status quo.

In any case - surely we can disagree on many issues
without resorting to labels and name calling.
We should be mature enough to do that.

I appreciate your telling me how you feel.

ttbn,

BTW - I am not sour and bitter. I have
been taught since childhood to try to
remain positive no matter what. And my secret
wish on this Forum is to finally make you see
that perhaps I'm not as bad as you think I am.

I certainly don't bear any ill-will towards you.
I often get the feeling that you are misunderstood.
And actually are a softie at heart.

Dear Foxy,

«I don't agree that criticisizing Israel makes you
a Jew-hater or that it's anti-Semitic to do so.
Many Jews are also critical of Israel.»

Correct.

Many who criticise Israel are not Jew-haters,
but there are also many Jew-haters who only criticise Israel because of that,
rather than because they have a genuine criticism of Israel.
Sadly there are also Jew-lovers who therefore automatically approve of anything Israel does, including its mistakes.

I perceive of this linkage between Israel and Jews as a grave historical mistake: the Israeli people need not suffer due to the world's perennial hatred of Jews, nor should worldwide Jews suffer from criticism and live in fear due to errors of Israel.

Israel is a state of its people, the Israelis.
The fact that most of them (but certainly not all) happen to also be Jews should not determine how Israel is treated - neither against nor in favour.

«Today-Israel's efforts to assert its right to self-defence»

What a flowery expression: Israel is not trying to assert anything - Israel is defending itself, period: that is the dictate of nature which neither animals (some plants even) nor humans escape, only saints who follow Jesus' advice to turn the other cheek.

«that labels Hamas as a terrorist group»

How else would you call a group that sows terror all around it?

Yes, following October the 7th, Israelis are in terror - you don't like that word? OK, then Israelis are since in constant fear for their lives, they are shaking, they tremble, they pee in their pants; and yes, they act accordingly, with whatever they have.

Israel can be legitimately criticised for many other things, but no other group would be similarly criticised for its natural reaction to the terror and existential threat which Hamas (and the other proxies of Iran) pose.

«It's becoming clear to many that Israel has waged a
ruthless campaign on land, sea, and air cutting off
Gaza's access to essentials...»

[continued...]

[...continued]

The way this sentence is constructed suggests an intentional direct connection between the two, which is simply not there in reality.

Yes, Israel has waged a ruthless campaign on land, sea, and air against Hamas.
The cutting off of Gaza's access to essentials, etc. etc., is a very regrettable side-effect, rather than the aim of that campaign.

«It now appears as though Israel - a state that claims to
represent Jews worldwide»

Only SOME idiots in Israel's government claim so.

«is mirroring the behaviour of its
Nazi oppressors»

The Nazis never oppressed Israel. You keep wrongly mixing up Israel with Jews.
In any case, the German Nazis had genocidal intentions and so do their Nazi friends in Israel's government, representing according to the latest polls only about 13% of Israel's population.

«And as many Jews worldwide and in Israel
cry - "Not in my name you don't!"»

That makes 87% of Israelis!

«It's too frightening to contemplate what could happen next
if this does not stop.»

And it will stop only when the Israeli hostages are released.
Do you want to help the poor Gazans? then protest for their immediate release!

«The Law of Return states that any Jew born anywhere in the
world can go and live in Israel. No Palestinian can. This
is wrong. It is not acceptable. And criticizing Israel for
it does not make anyone a Jew-hater.»

Fine, then go ahead and protest against Israel's Law of Return,
but not against Israel's necessary war of survival against Hamas and the other proxies of Iran.

Armchair Critic and Foxy are "...a sour and bitter pair..." Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black.

To date, the government of Israel has done nothing to convince me that the killing of thousands of innocent civilians is justified. I see it as an act of barbaric inhumanity. Until they can persuade me otherwise, I will call them out for it. Meanwhile, you can go right ahead and call me any of those intellectually lazy slogans the loony right so easily fall for.

Dear Critic,

True to your nickname, you only criticise but provide no alternative solutions.

If you oppose Israel's use of F-35s and smart bombs, then please suggest what alternate weapons it could use.
And should your solution be for Israel to lie down passively belly-up and allow itself to be raped, then please again, say so clearly.

«Are we talking about Israels's survival or Netanyahu's?»

Netanyahu is a goner, also a coward who lacks the basic courage to commit Harakiri and rather live in utter shame a few months longer or at best end up a refugee in America.
Israel's survival on the other hand, is now on the balance.

«Does Israel REALLY need to murder and starve so many innocent people 'in order to survive'?»

No, it doesn't, but unfortunately, due to Hamas using them as human shields, it cannot survive without killing a number of them.

«Israel / Jews seem to have this iron-fisted 'never-again' attitude, where they meter out extreme disproportionate revenge attacks»

I do not support revenge attacks, nor any linkage between Israel and Jews, I only support what is required for Israel's survival and unfortunately that requires attacking Hamas' underground infrastructure which cannot be reached in any other way.

«upon any Palestinian who dares to resist amongst an entire group of people that Israel routinely subjugates and oppresses.»

That I do not support, nor does my family.

«So maybe you should try and find a Plan B and consider something else.»

Israel tried, several times, it offered the local Arabs to have their own independent state, but they refused time and again.

Perhaps it is now your turn to suggest some Plan B?

«For me, I think the Netanyahu government has to go for starters and the IDF need to suffer some kind of serious military defeat before the country will ever change.»

Netanyahu WILL go and the country WILL change, no military defeat is needed.

«Go ahead and do what you did in 1948»

What I did in 1948?
How old do you think I am?

[continued...]

[...continued]

«Should we really try to do the same thing again and expect a different outcome?»

Pity we didn't have you then to give us your sage advice, nor in 1967 or 1973, but perhaps now?

«Try to find another way that doesn't involve so many dead innocent people.
That would please me.»

Israel already tried... and failed - could you help it out?
Think hard over it, but please take into account that Israel considers its survival even more important than pleasing you.

«Hows does one drop a bomb with enough destructive power to destroy an entire city block of multiple buildings Yuyutsu
- How does one drop a bomb with that much destructive power on places such as schools, hospitals, churches etc.
- and then make the argument 'they did not intend to kill'?»

With tears in their eyes, Critic.

A Nazi member in Israel's government yesterday accused the Israeli air-force for sometimes refusing for conscientious reasons to drop bombs where ground forces direct them.

Yes, pilots may be crying, but they have a horrible job which they must do in order to save their own families.
I back their case-by-case moral discretion.

«Not only that, they use AI apps for military applications, that have detailed maps of the whole of Gaza, every apartment building and all occupants who live there»

Just ridiculous: if they had such technology then they could foresee and prevent that attack on October 7th. Israeli forces were surprised time and again to discover the size of Hamas underworld, initially believing the tunnels totalled 500 kilometers long, then updating it to several thousands, including whole cities below ground they never knew of.

Going back centuries, there has been a claim that Jews steal gentiles, particularly infants and the young, in order to harvest their blood and bodies for Jewish rituals. Not a few pogroms against Jews in eastern Europe were, at in part, caused by populations believing these claims.

It also formed a goodly part of the rubbish incorporated in the utterly debunked Protocols of the Elders of Zion and was a vital part of the anti-Semitic Nazi propaganda.

So its not the least bit surprising to see the the utterly despicable AC continuing this viles tradition...." Israel has been robbing the corpses of killed Palestinians for organ harvesting"

What I do find surprising and not a little disappointing is that the Hamas cheer-squad in this group didn't lift a finger to call out these sickening assertions.

The truly sad part of this, which shows the true calibre of AC, is that there is ample evidence of organ harvesting by the Chinese against the Uighur but AC has hastened to excuse that genocide.

The very core of this thread from Foxy shows an appalling lack of understanding of the nature of the Jewish state. Israel isn't a victim here and isn't claiming victimhood.

The Jews have been victims of history for two millennia culminating in the Holocaust. Israel was formed so that Jews will never again be victims, they will always have a place of refuge no matter how prevalent anti-Semitism becomes and they will always be able to fight back against those who seek to destroy them.

That's why they are prepared to spend so much of their wealth on ensuring their armies are pre-eminent in the region. Its why their soldiers are prepared to give all for their place of refuge. Its why Israel has prevailed in four wars against those who seek to destroy it, despite being out manned and out gunned in each encounter.

Israel isn't a victim here. Sure, they suffered a temporary setback on 7 October at the hands of the Palestinian animals, but they are now rectifying that. Victims or those claiming victimhood don't fight back, don't punish their assailants, don't work to ensure they can't be victimised again. Real victims seek mercy or seek protection from others. Israel is doing neither. (Hamas on the other hand...). Israel is just going about its business to ensure it won't be victimised again and Hamas is now learning about the wages of rousing the Israeli ire.

Suggesting that Israel is a victim or is seeking victimhood utterly misunderstands the current situation and the history of the last 70 years. People like Foxy assert that they are well versed in that history but constantly display the opposite.

Israel is neither a victim not seeks victimhood. Hamas is learning that. I doubt Foxy will

Gentlemen,

I have posted the facts to the best of my ability.
What you make of them is up to you.
You can define me as you choose.
I know who I am.
End of story.
'Nuff said.

A victim mentality is where you often feel like a victim, even when the evidence says otherwise. Signs include frequently blaming others and having trouble accepting personal responsibility.

http://psychcentral.com/health/victim-mentality#victim-mentality

This is certainly the case here when talking about previous actions against Jews and the unfortunate ongoing matters in Gaza.

Neither are related, yet some unfortunately some choose to use the terrible, previous actions against Jews to justify current actions in Gaza by the Israeli Government and its military. I would also argue some in Hamas do something similar.

As a person for the sanctity of life (I don't eat animals or support their killing), I don't support the taking of life by others. It is something I cannot support, particularly by an imposed military. Something that should be defunded, stripped in terms of its operations and put to an end.

Unfortunately the military also plays the victim to justify its actions and existence. It has to realise it has achieved very little to nothing in terms of change or positive outcomes.

Unfortunately we still see people forced into military service internationally by Governments. The Israeli Government does the same.

http://time.com/6551044/israeli-teen-refuses-to-enlist-in-idf/ (from December 2023).

The situation in Gaza is an ongoing one. I don't support the actions of Hamas, but they are a terrorist organisation. They have no responsibility. Governments I am forced to live and operate under should.

This film link shows how terrible life in Gaza is for innocent Palestinian civilians there, particularly children. One is left with shards of metal in her head, after a building she was in was hit by the Israeli military. You can view the whole documentary for about $3.00.

http://vimeo.com/ondemand/fromundertherubble2

Dear Aries,

«To date, the government of Israel has done nothing to convince me that the killing of thousands of innocent civilians is justified. I see it as an act of barbaric inhumanity. Until they can persuade me otherwise, I will call them out for it.»

Do you consider it the role of the government of Israel to run after you and change what you think?

---

Dear Foxy,

«I have posted the facts to the best of my ability.»

Still no word about the hostages?

Nor by anyone here!

---

Dear Nathan,

Having been its "victim" myself, I see no worse atrocity than conscription.
No country who does so has a right to exist.

Yet while I FEEL a victim, it would be wrong of me to consider myself an innocent victim, because my being subjected to conscription due to no visible fault of mine, implies that I must have done similar horrible thing(s) to others in previous lifetime(s).

All that is left for me now, is to be conscious and never do this again in future to anyone else.

Actually, the same can also be said for "innocent Palestinians".

Now the Israeli hostages are in a similar predicament, and they are starving too.
Don't you think that someone ought to enter Gaza to free them, and also to make sure that no others are kidnapped again in future?

I very much appreciate your non-violence, of which you can be proud, yet others have not yet reached that point in their evolution, nor have the privilege of being vegetarian: you should not scorn them just for being behind you!

Among them are those whose natural duty (or Dharma) is to protect others from physical harm and defend their country - not conscripts, God forbid, but others for whom this is their natural inclination and a true expression of their spiritual progress so far. There is nothing wrong whatsoever about them enlisting in an army to fight evil terrorists. They incur no sin while doing this duty of theirs, acting as God's instrument alone with no other agenda in mind.

Christianity has played a large part in the hatred of Jews, particularity in Europe. From earliest times Christians sought to legitimises themselves within the Roman Empire. To do so they moved the responsibility for the destruction of Christ away from the Romans and placed it onto the Jews. Coupled with the fact Jews were excluded from "legitimate" business and become the money changers, and thus seen as being of dubious character. Hitler with his Nazism was able to exploit an underlying suspicion of Jews within Germany, who were never a part of mainstream German society, to scapegoat them for the problems that beset the country post WWI. The rest is history.

The figures coming from Israel are that about 8000 of those killed in Gaza were Hamas militants with 1000s more captured.

Israel has been extremely restrained.

mhaze

Your use of “utterly despicable” and “appalling lack of understanding” sums up this nasty thread very well. It has been a real hate-fest and anti-Semitic, pro-terror exercise. We really shouldn't be giving oxygen to people like these two. Responding to their hate and ignorance seems to embolden them. New Year's Resolution: ignore them.

I see no worse atrocity than conscription
Yuyutsu,
Conscription is the unfortunate need for defending the country you live in when the demographic’s mentality is such that everyone demands protection & security yet no-one is willing to pull their weight !

There can be no reasoning with followers of a government that has received praise from a Hamas terrorist,Ghazi Hamad, for its call for an Israeli ceasefire, and its joint statement with also morally bankrupt New Zealand and Canada to stop pursuing Hamas.

That's right, the Albanese government demanded a ceasefire against terrorism!

Terrorists who can quote support from the Australian government. No wonder Jews now fear for their safety in Australia.

The Albanese government votes against Israel in the UN, and refuses to cooperate with its greatest ally against terrorism in the Red Sea.

What a disgrace. We shouldn't be surprised by the tripe posted by supporters of such a rotten government.

All we can do is starve them of attention.

Australia has joined 152 other countries at the
United Nations calling for a ceasefire in Gaza -
but there were conditions - no Hamas role in
Gaza's future government and the release of the
roughly 130 hostages still in its custody.

The government has made it very clear that a
sustainable ceasefire cannot be one-sided and that
it cannot be unconditional.

A ceasefire without the surrender of Hamas only postpones the fighting as Hamas will never give up power.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote: "Could we not agree that Israel HAS to do roughly what it does now in order to survive?"

Absolutely not. The continuing carving up of the West Bank, the government sanctioned movement of families into militarily occupied territory, and the escalating settler violence are not things Israel needs to do to ensure its survival. This is something only anti-Palestinian RWNJs would assert.

Speaking of RWNJs it is interesting how some many of the usual suspects here are staunchly defending Jewish victimhood but are scathing that Indigenous Australians have any themselves. Blinkered and racist perspectives.

If hamas took over an israeli hospital, full of israeli doctors, nurses and patients, would israel flatten the hospital the same way they have done in gaza?

Dear Yuyutsu, You ask me:

Do you consider it the role of the government of Israel to run after you and change what you think?

No. Not me. I note however, that the government of Israel is doing a crap job of convincing the rest of the world too.

While the government of Israel continues its barba ric, inhumane murdering of thousands of civilians, I will continue to judge it harshly and speak out against that government.

The amount of lying and tying oneself in knots, claiming historical or moral superiority trying to justify the unjustifiable that I see on this blog is is almost as scary as what is actually happening in Gaza.

---

Dear Aires54,

This report on a potentially missed opportunity by the Biden administration is sobering.

I does speak to how beholden to the Israeli government the US is.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2024/01/01/us-rejected-palestinian-deal-that-would-have-avoided-10-7/

Dear SteeleRedux,

«Absolutely not. The continuing carving up of the West Bank,...»

I was only speaking of the war in Gaza, that was the context, nothing else.

If it was up to me then I would be driving out of the West Bank at 200km/h at the risk of getting a speeding ticket.

---

Dear Mikk,

«If hamas took over an israeli hospital, full of israeli doctors, nurses and patients, would israel flatten the hospital the same way they have done in gaza?»

There are no tunnels under Israeli hospitals.

---

Dear Indyvidual,

«Conscription is the unfortunate need for defending the country you live in when the demographic’s mentality is such that everyone demands protection & security yet no-one is willing to pull their weight !»

That's highly hypothetical: in reality, when the cause is just, there are more who volunteer to defend a country even without being called.
- See in Ukraine how old and amputated people join the fight on crutches. The IDF has volunteers fighting in their 60's and 70's, even one in his 90's.

Also, people can also help defend their country in other ways and/or on their own terms.

But to answer that hypothetical question, suppose not enough people volunteer to defend their country, then that must mean that the country in question does not deserve to be defended.

---

Dear SoapBox,

«Jews within Germany, who were never a part of mainstream German society»

Felix Mendelssohn
Arnold Schoenberg
Gustav Mahler
Giacomo Meyerbeer
Otto Klemperer

These are the most famous among dozens of Jewish-German composers.

«Christianity has played a large part in the hatred of Jews»

Correct. Many people, particularity in Europe, blame the Jews for complicating their formerly care-free life by the introduction of Christianity.

But let's not digress: the topic is Israel, not the Jews.
The incidental fact that most Israelis happen to also be Jews should not make a difference in their natural response to terror.

---

Dear Aries,

The crap Israeli government deserves to die, but the IDF does what it needs to do in Gaza DESPITE that evil government, not because.

Yuyutsu,

Re the Hamas hostages, I'm concerned about their wellbeing, but the Israeli Government and others internationally are not. Their "concern" is to justify their existence and make them relevant to people re daily life. That being without governments we will all wither and die. These hostages are nothing more than a pawn for governments, as they are for Hamas. Both are equally evil.

The problem with the government concern line, is they treat their own people appallingly, alongside those within their borders.

With Israel, one person has been jailed for about 110 days for refusing military service, having to stay amongst those in prison regarding murder, rape, firearms and other crimes. An extremely off putting experience and when one considers there are only 365 days in a year that's a lot of time in prison.

The U.S record is not clean, look at how many people have died due to being put to the electric chair or Australia's record of keeping Refugees and Asylum seekers in offshore detention.

This article sums up some points well about the military in Israel. The figures show how badly their military is in terms of outcomes and spending, compared to the loss of lives. We don't even have all of the Hamas hostages out yet and have over 20,000 Palestinians (dead or missing) and Israelis also (dead and missing).

Israel has a large spend re military (one of the largest in the world) and a large presence (numbers wise).

Israel, 169,500 active military personnel in the army, navy and paramilitary, a further 465,000 constitute its reserve forces, 8,000 form part of its paramilitary.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/how-big-is-israels-military-and-how-much-funding-does-it-get-from-the-us

Yet despite the spend and numbers in the military, Israel's defence was caught out and showed they were not up to it. In terms of Hamas, they didn't pop up recently and the Israeli Government has had plenty of time to reduce their impact and remove their presence peacefully.

I'm hoping the people of Israel will peacefully overthrow the current government there and/or elect a new one, one which has some basic principles in place.

Dear Nathan,

I join your prayers.

Hi Nathan,

I think that we all hope for that outcome.

The humanitarian aid going to Gaza is first allocated the resistance fighters and any Gazan stealing aid is shot on site. The citizens of Gaza are treated as second class citizens by Hamas, and their lives are mere pawns in this battle.

In a written statement, Hamas openly admits it is taking the humanitarian aid by force that enters Gaza. Mousa Abu Marzouk responded to the killing of an 11-year-old boy in Rafa. They should not take the food needed for the fighters, said Marzouk.

Humanitarian aid has been made conditional and is
being withheld according to political and military agendas.
Food, water, fuel, and medicine is being systematically
used as weapons of war in Gaza. As is disinformation.

Attacking and trying to discredit is yet another means of
waging war and compromising the humanitarian response
weakening the protection of civilians and civilin
infrastructure.

Josephus

Yes. Hamas is responsible for stealing and all of the shortages of aid to Gazans.

But, what we have to realise is that the 'usual subjects' here are anti-Israel and possibly anti-Semitic. Their "facts" are just the opinions of the mainstream media and Leftist sources spreading nonsense.

These people are also naive. This is WAR. Israel has no responsibility for aid or anything else to it's enemy - outside international laws. The idea that it has is ridiculous.

War is brutal and horrible. This particular brutal and horrible war was started by Hamas and the Gazans who voted for them.

But, the usual suspects will continue to blame Israel for purely idealogical and racist reasons. They don't care about a few Arabs; they just hate Israel and Jews.

All we can do here is ignore their hate speech. There is nothing to be gained by arguing with anonymous lunatics who, like all people whiling away time time on the internet, have no power to do anything much about our own lives, let alone international affairs.

War is brutal and horrible.
ttbn,
Unfortunately, war seems to be the only alternative to dealing with the stupid who either cause wars or for the handful of logical thinkers who are trying to limit them. You have to fight stupidity with brutal force because talking sense to them is a proven waste of time.

Rising public support for Palestinian rights reflects
Israel's harsh, often criminal policies which are now
visible for the whole world to see every day - including
the brutality in Gaza. It reveals the eroding of
traditional pro-Israel propaganda in the face of
more visible and explicitly apartheid policies by
Israel and it signals how people across the globe
recognize the Palestinian suffering and their battle for
national rights as being the last anti-colonial
struggle in the world.

Calls for justice are becoming stronger. People are
marching in the streets for social justice and liberty
as good people have always done to fix the world's
weaknesses and right its wrongs.

People all over the world want a ceasefire in Gaza
and equal rights for both Israelis and Palestinians.
It is a battleground and is as important as the current
military face-off over Gaza in this century-old conflict.

The rising public support for Palestinian rights reflects
Israel's harsh, often criminal policies
which are now visible for the whole world to see every day -
including the brutality in Gaza. Call for justice are getting
stronger. Jews not only in Israel but all over the world
are joining into the protests. with placards that spell out -
"Not In My Name You Don't."

We should not be taken in by diversionary propaganda -
like accusations of "Jew hatred," and "anti-semitism," these
tactics will mount. However this is not about any of that.
This is about working for a better world, social justice
and liberty. And it is what good people have always
tried to do - to fix the world's weaknesses and right its
wrongs.

In Quantum Mechanics and Politics- measuring biases the measurement in terms of the observing ideology.

Woke/Communists always want to be seen as the ones protecting the underdog- not to fix the problem but to get power legitimacy. Remember communist nations are the worst and most illegitimate.

Most believe in forms of imperfect authority. Woke and Communists seemingly criticise authority except their authority (academy/ universities). The Declaration Of Independence gives hints for better authority- also The Catholic concept of subsidiarity. Others- Aristotle and Nietzsche studied different political systems and their superiority and inferiority rather than their features and benefits. There is also much to learn from animal hierarchies relation to human communities (Jordan Peterson).

Everyone justifies their own power- their particular tyranny. I believe that local tyranny is superior to global tyranny. But some believe there are advantages of global tyranny. Who watches the watchers is often a question. But some form of aristocracy seems necessary. Are authorities bad or just stupid. Often power is justified by demonstrating the high moral ground (but it may be difficult to "justify" (talk) and "do justice" (do) concurrently).

Hebrew's are partially to blame in most if not all of their problems- we all are. What rules we use to judge the situation and to improve it?- everyone has the right to judge things according to their own principles- but some principles are more reliable than others in certain contexts.

The Hebrew culture is originally apparently a Middle Eastern culture which influenced and was influenced by European culture about 2000 years ago. Middle Eastern peoples have been invading Europe since ancient times- the Persian's fought with the Spartan's and Alexander and The Slav Hordes migrated into Europe, the Middle Easterners fought Roman's in Judea, Parthia, took Constantinople. The Bible describes Middle Easterners as 12 tribes out of Egypt. At some point Rome felt that it needed to control and civilize The Mediterranean Sea being key transport infrastructure (recently The Woke have "civilized" domains of their own).

Spiraling technology enables increasing range and scale of military, communications, travel, government- don't make ourselves a tool of technology.

Unlike Trotsky's hyper extreme "permanent revolution" (against Class Repressive Tradition) favouring nihilistic "scorched earth" Change (Change Momentum)- most believe in Tradition with some small amount of Change (Tradition Momentum).
Trotsky's "permanent revolution" atomizes societies to concentrate power- "nationalizing children" and society into age classes, stealing children from their families, creating permanent war between the sexes- destroying families, benefitting foreign actors.

Dominance of hydrocarbons is critical to world stability (Second Industrial Revolution). Israel's place in the hydrocarbon rich Middle East enables relative world stability costing local Middle Eastern instability.

Seemingly Hebrew's dominate US Institution's contradicting The Declaration Of Independence. OTOH the US embeds separation of church and state- blind to Hebrew dominance at US formation.

The organisations of the US and Christianity face similar issues with Judaism- eroded by "the friendly Hebrew" hypothesis- statistically unlikely. But organisations should try and form common ground with Hebrew's- develop productive Commonwealth's generally- whilst maintaining integrity.

Complexity is a problem- a lot more than most of us consider. Fences reduce the need for complex and costly territorial display. The infighting caused by western communism will lead to a world complexity crisis- but the communists don't care for poor they hate powerful proficiency (Nietzsche).

To make things even more complex Hebrew's have a significant relationship with wokeism and communism and the development of the US and more broadly in the 20th Century through various figures (Freud, Bernays (Father of Consumerism), Marcuse (Father of the New Left), other Hebrew Psychologists, Hollywood, Hebrew's tend to vote Democrat, Saul Alinsky, Marx (Father of Communism), Trotsky, etc).

Hebrew's have occupied a surprising number of powerful positions in US institutions and movements given their "context"- obviously there is a reason- perhaps influenced by advertised victimhood (justifying evil by squaring the ledger with victimhood). Some rich people cry poor too.

You have to ask the question are Hebrew's playing both sides of the political divide to benefit Hebrew's rather than the ideology in question? Or are Hebrew's just innocently acting according to their individual interests according to the wonderful diversity of the Hebrew diaspora?

There is a difference between Israeli victimhood and US Hebrew victimhood. I don't think mhaze with the greatest of respect has read The Protocol's of the Elders of Zion- it's a pretty boring read from memory- but I don't remember it containing baby stealing in abundance, except in reference perhaps to their stealing western futures. Though I suspect that many propaganda documents of the period contain similar references. I remember the "German 'King Kong'" from US WWI propaganda- no one seems to object to that.

"Christianity has played a large part in the hatred of Jews"- Some principles of Christianity favour Hebrew's some oppose Hebrew's. All cultures need exclusive territory to survive- those that deny that commit genocide- most animals demonstrate territorial behavior- but certain groups in the modern era deny it in their quest for power.

Just because Hebrew's may be "always the victim" doesn't mean that the Hebrew's have acted rightly or wrongly in the current Israel/ Gaza situation.

In a sense Hebrew's are closer to a Western context than other parts of the Middle East.

Josephus,

Back posting utter garbage yet again. Well you do have a captive little audience who gobble this stuff up without questioning it I suppose.

It never happened.

It is just another piece of the disinformation flotsam kicking around places like Instagram for the utter brainless like yourself.

Even Reddit's r/Israel removed it recognising it as rubbish.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Israel/comments/18vwud6/hamas_steal_gaza_food/

I won't bother telling you to grow up because we both know that isn't going to happen, but there is far higher quality disinformation you could be posting than this. Do us a favour and put even just a little more effort in on the next one.

Israel's carefully crafted monopoly on victimization
and the attendant dehumanization of Palestinians
has been accepted world-wide by many in the past.
But now it is being questioned world-wide and
getting stronger.

It is not surprising that Hamas is being blamed for
this on-going conflict. We're being told that it is
solely a reaction to Hamas's surprise attack on Israel
on Oct. 7th that has prompted Israel's reaction. That the
cause of this was not the past 75 years of Israeli
violence and ethnic cleansing of Palestine as well as
the cumulative depraved barbarity - which is what
prompted Hamas's actions in the first place.

This bloody pattern has continued ever since with
Palestinians consistently dying in disproportionate
numbers and being cast as the aggressors and victimisers.

And, as long as Netanyahu is focused on staying in
power - there appears no end to this conflict.

Dear Foxy,

Did your children ever come home crying with a thorn in their toe?

In order to pull out the thorn, did you pull out their whole toe?

The World must outlaw the reading / teaching of the writings of Mohamed as it promotes killing Jews and Christians who do not submit to Islam. That is the textbook of terrorism. I take my sources from the IDF reports. Gazans raided food trucks and the army threatened them, killing a 12 year old boy.

Hamas is still firing about 100 rockets daily into Israel civilian areas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/27/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets.html
"Since Hamas led a terrorist attack on southern Israel on Oct. 7, Hamas and other armed groups have fired about 12,000 rockets from Gaza into Israel, a quarter of them on Oct. 7".

Yuyutsu,

As a parent you try to be prepared for medical
emergencies of all kinds concerning your children.

It's for that reason that you ensure that they
have received all of
their shots and you have a First Aid Kit at home.

However, you teach your kids appropriate behaviour
whether it's climbing trees, crossing streets or
camping in the wilderness.

If you have a really serious accident to deal with
you call 000.

I hope that helps answer your question.

You don't just ignore what's happened and you take
steps in their education to try to prevent it from happening.

Josephus,

Oh, you're still here.

Dear Josephus,

«The World must outlaw the reading / teaching of the writings of Mohamed as it promotes killing Jews and Christians»

Muhammad, peace be upon him, was a Christian himself and had no clue regarding anything that will be written in his name 100's of years after his death.

«That is the textbook of terrorism»

Does it teach how to make bombs, rockets and attack-gliders, or how to dig tunnels?

If Hamas didn't have that particular book then they would find some other.
Specifically, in their written instructions for the Nukhba commandos on the morning of October 7th, they instructed them to rape the corpses of Israeli women and kill Israeli babies "despite it being against the Quran".

There are 100's of millions peaceful Muslims in Australia's own neighbourhood alone - why incite against them?

---

Dear Foxy,

Do I need to spell it out?

If you try to push and pull the Israeli people as a whole, including verbally, rather than help them to extract the thorn in their midst (i.e. Netanyahu and his Judeo-Nazi fellows), then the Israeli people will unitedly hit you back and rightly so. My family are there too and they are not to blame for Netanyahu's crimes, they hate him no less that you!

Indyvidual

Yes, wars have to be fought. Just imagine what the world would have been like if the Nazis were allowed to take it over without a fight.
WW11 was essential.

Currently, Israel must fight a war to survive; it has in the past, and it will in the future, because Islam will always be a threat.

There will always be wars, no matter how horrible and brutal they are.

I wonder what the attitude of the Israel/Jewish critics would be if Israel was not Jewish, but secular, populated by democratic Westerners, besieged by Muslims for around 70 years, regularly attacked with rockets, then subjected to the horrors of October 7th.

Well that's the problem isn't it ttbn.
Israels problems stem from it's existence as a racist apartheid state.
'besieged by Muslims for around 70 years'
That's curious, isn't that almost the exact amount of time since it's founding?

Are we allowed to have a racist aparteid state and kick all the people we don't like out? No.
Israel's a democracy they say, we're a democracy
- But we're not the same.

We don't shoot the indigenous for sport, and we don't have policies designed to wipe them out.
Go cheer on some more dead women and kids.

Israel is a democratic state surrounded by autocratic racist apartheid states.

Every Arab nation has ethnically cleansed most if not all its Jews and most of its Christians and persecuted anyone that is not Muslim.

SM

Right. But we can't expect the morons who have swallowed the lie that Israel is a 'racist apartheid state' to get it. They never reached the homo erectus stage of development.

For me at least the time has come to leave this
conversation. I can see that nothing productive
is being achieved here and I have no wish to
take part in the unfortunate abuse that's coming
from some.

Most rational people want to see an end to the
conflict in the Middle-East. But as we can see
from even this attempted conversation -
it probably will not
be happening any time soon unless everyone says -
"Enough!"

Finger-pointing and taking sides only incites
exclusion and decreases the chances of
the required coming together and seeing the humanity
in each other. It reduces the opportunities for
people being able to live in peace
side by side with equal rights, respect, and dignity.

For that to happen - people on both sides need to take
a stand. Demand new leadership - and say - "Not in my name
you don't!"

See you on another discussion

"Productive" and "abuse" meaning Foxywoxy is not getting her own way; people disagree with her nonsense; and again, she departs in a huff. Let's see if this time she doesn't do a Dame Nellie Melba or a John Farnham and make another comeback, as she usually does.

Don't let them get under your skin Foxy,

Apparently Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
Palestinians aren't allowed to resist the horrible things done to them.
Israels leaders and members of the IDF openly talk ethnic cleansing, genocide, torture and executions, and have policies that echo these sentiments.

Israel kills 22,000 civilians largely women and kids
(forget those rotting under the rubble)
- And it's NOT a terrorist organisation?

That's because Israel IS 'always the victim'.

Israel is a NAZI terrorist state.

They are also like a whinging 5 year olds.
Some school teacher wears a Palestinian badge for solidarity
And the Israeli Ambassadors and lobbyists are calling the Minister for Education claiming Anti-Semite.

'Anti-Semitic' probably costs the australian government millions of dollars in made up bs.

These people here oppose a ceasefire Foxy, they want the killing to continue.
They don't care about the innocent people caught in this conflict.

Israel will not destroy Hamas.
This is just Israels far right messianic leadership trying to capitalise on all the years talking about how they would get rid of the Palestinians.
If Israel can kill more innocent people and get away with it they will.

ttbn,

You promised to ignore me.

Why are you commenting on me?

Hi AC,

Thank you for your kind words.

ttbn said "I wonder what the attitude of the Israel/Jewish critics would be if Israel was not Jewish, but secular, populated by democratic Westerners, besieged by Muslims for around 70 years..."
Answer- I like ttbn's mirror gazing/ perspective shifting- it's a good tool in the toolbox.

Armchair Critic said- "Are we allowed to have a racist aparteid state and kick all the people we don't like out?"
Answer- Multiculturalism is code for Anti-White. It's the western countries that are being undemocratically forced to give up their identity year by year being replaced by mainly Chinese and Indian's. If Whites had the same protections as the Israeli Hebrew's we wouldn't be facing anhilation. In the US Hebrew's are one of the demographic groups seizing White power as a proportion of their population. White people need their own territories too. African genetics have pretty much the whole of Africa a huge land area- yet they are proclaimed as marginalized minorities- the five group multiregional theory implies that "Black African's are the most land rich genetic groups" on the planet.

http://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.E7VPvbyQHK2yfrzJqJcVUQHaFj%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=60a41c262d9b8167000ae31fa20909192b0e586f02755624300e1278874dc075&ipo=images
http://image2.slideserve.com/3643697/slide29-l.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiregional_origin_of_modern_humans
http://www.slideserve.com/keon/prehistoric-peoples

I'm not sure if Israel satisfies the definition of an apartheid or they just make it hard to obtain citizenship. You could argue that Israel was founded based on a racist principle but it gets silly arguing about whether the middle eastern people were prisoners of war in a vanquished nation after WWII. Of course communists and woke want to make certain nations ungovernable according to Frank Kitson in Low Level Insurgency and probably (also Saul Alinsky in Rules For Radicals). I suppose that Alinsky made the title easy for woke and communists- and they say that Traditionalists are dumb. Traditionalists seem to believe that "just because you attend the academy doesn't mean you aren't dumb"- but selling universities must convince student buyers of their value- increasingly difficult with rise of online/open learning- OTOH universities absorbed the role of one the job training from the previous era apprentice system. The academy should admit that times have moved on and downsize.

Primatology is the "study of human group evolution" and the academy is a "vehicle for implementing individual or cohort human evolution".
Australopithecus (5M- 1st large brained homo sapien)- Home Habilis (2M) - Homo Erectus (1M- first ground based homo sapien)- Neanderthal (100K) - Human (80K) - Modern (10K)
It's interesting that human brain development happened before we were ground based. It implies that human ancestors were transitioning from trees over a long period of time.
http://onlinesciencenotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/evolution-1024x576.jpg

It's possible humans left Africa before Homo Erectus- bonobo's seem to have got out of Africa to Indonesia without straight spines.

"Multiculturalism is code for Anti-White."

Interesting, it made me think of 'Jews don't identify as white people, but have contempt for other white people' type discussions
I read this comment on X a few weeks back, I'll have to dig it up but could take me hours to find.
It was from the 1920's I believe, and spoke of a Jew who stated the only way Jews would ever be safe in Europe was if they could control or malign those countries governments and culture.

Might be something to dig into if I can find that tweet as a starting point, given that their fearful, controlling nature has them controlling US Congress and all.

As to my earlier comment, it wasn't a school teacher, it was a Qantas employee who wore a Palestinian flag pin about the size of a finger nail.

You want to know what all this is?
It's actually pretty sad when you realise that here this is all it is:

Take all the bs away - and what's left?

Israel is actively engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide and has been since day one and prior, but it order to carry this out they need to disguise themselves as the victims and outlaw any criticism of this biblical aligned policy and attack any criticisers or those who would defend their lands from theft as being anti-semitic.

That's all it is.
Nothing more, nothing less.

Ethnic Cleansing. Land theft.
And you are not allowed to disparage Israel.

It's fecking sad and pathetic.

Foxy

You said that you were finished with this thread. Why did you lie? Why do you always come back after you have said that you won't? Those are rhetorical questions. I know why. You have absolutely no self-awareness or self-discipline. You are the quintessential narcissist.

Your ‘not in my name’ is a laugh. Nobody does anything in your name, Foxy. Nobody doing the things you take personal umbrage at have ever heard of you. Like everyone else here and online generally, you are just an anonymous nobody on a computer screen. Unlike most of us, you take yourself far too seriously.

If you are going to lie, don't be like Nellie and John; be like General Douglas Macarthur, and don't return

ttbn,

I did not come back to take part in the subject
of this discussion. I came back to respond to
the comments you made about me. There's a difference.
You are the liar. You promised to ignore me. Yet
you follow me from one discussion to another.

Why are you still commenting about me?

Please keep your own promise.

The world is so screwed up...
And Ukraine and Gaza may be the least of the worlds problems...
With some of these people in charge.

Republican Senator Lindsey Graham openly stated the US was ready to 'fight to the last Ukrainian'.

Do you think he says that because he cares about the Ukrainians or is it something else?

They now have the European countries rounding up the fighting-aged Ukrainians who escaped and plan on sending them back to Ukraine to fight (die).

What if I was the PM of Australia and I said "I'm willing to fight to the last Israeli, all 7.3 million of them!".
I'm not willing to send Aussie troops, sorry.
But I am willing to round up any Israelis in Australia and send them back to Israel so they can go to the front lines too if necessary.

Hamas and Hazbolloh must be defeated!

Q Am I saying this because I do or don't care about Israelis?

I got 1 more thing to say today...

If Labor doesn't back this South African accusation of incitement to commit genocide / and genocide
- Which Israel is absolutely guilty of, condemned by the words and actions of its own leaders

Then Labor doesn't ever get to bring up 'human rights' again without being laughed at and humiliated.
They lose the credibility to speak on ACTUAL human rights forever if choose a political 'three-wise monkeys' position

"I wonder what the attitude of the Israel/Jewish critics would be if Israel was not Jewish, but secular, populated by democratic Westerners"

Wow, that would be refreshing and I would look forward to the day when Israelis are viewed the way they are, rather than as "Jewish".

In reality, though most happen to be, not all Israelis are Westerners, not all secular and not all are democratic, but so what? The very same can be said about Australians!

When that day finally comes, I believe that the hate towards Israel will greatly diminish, and so the excessive love towards it - both will largely convert to apathy and I will be very happy with that result.

Israel will still face the same enemies, because the Muslim clergy surrounding it cannot allow secular democratic Westerners to come close and mess around with their flock, influencing them to leave the mosques and emancipate their women. That has been the case all along since the first Zionists came, it never had anything truly to do with the Israelis being "Jewish", which was merely a convenient excuse in order to divert the Arab public attention from the clerics' true fears.

And Israel, just like anyone else in its situation, will continue to face its bitter enemies and defend itself, and do so even better without all the flashlights directed at it.

If you are too afraid of fires, don't live in Australia.
If you are too afraid of earthquakes, don't live in Japan.
If you are too afraid of hurricanes, don't live in the Caribbeans.
If you are too afraid of Ebola and other tropical diseases, don't live in Africa.
If you are too afraid of Muslim fanatics, don't live in Israel.

No place on earth is safe, but to some extent one can choose from the menu between the different risks.

We know that Muslims hate everyone, but Jews are their number one target, and the Koran says so.

Christians will be next, and our idiotic politicians will help them out by importing Muslims to the West. Atheists are not safe, either. In fact, anyone not Muslims is a target.

For a while there was outrage because the imams in Australia were not decrying the massacre of Jews on October 7. Not now. They must have got the word from people who understand Islam that the imams didn't comment because they follow the Koran and approve of Jews being slaughtered.

Yuyutsu, Friday, 5 January 2024 12:40:02 PM - A GREAT POST!

Israel is such a small area - we have cattle stations larger.

According to archaeological records, writings (and the developing Hebrew script), Jews have been in the area for 5000 years. They are the indigenous peoples.

Ramesses II mentions Israel on his famous Victory Stella with a determinative sign as a people or ethnic group.

First there were the Jews, then the Christians (Jesus was a Jew) 2024 years ago, then the Muslims (the last kid on the block) only 1400 years ago.

Muslims don't believe in a convert, but a revert. They believe everyone is actually born Islamic. By a few short words a revert becomes a full Muslim. This doesn't have to be witnessed, so anyone can become Islamic. In the privacy if one's own home.

So many have 'reverted" back to Islam at the end of a sword - an offer that cant be refused.

This mindset appears among certain Muslims in this country. The only terrorist threats have been Islamic.

"According to archaeological records, writings (and the developing Hebrew script), Jews have been in the area for 5000 years. They are the indigenous peoples."

That may be, but when they decided to resettle the place 600,000 Muslims now lived there.

A land without a people for a people without a land
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_land_without_a_people_for_a_people_without_a_land

That land actually already had people living there though now.
So the Israelis ran them off and killed them and 'declared it' Israel.
True story.

And that was after they fought alongside the Anzacs
after we promised them self determination,
if they rose up against the Ottomans.

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East.

Of its population, 21% are Arab Muslims. 70% of whom feel very much part of Israel and would never leave.

As all Israelis they have the right to vote. Have served in the Knesset, currently Arab Parties hold ten seats in the Knesset ... in the past have held fifteen seats. They have sat on the Supreme Court, worked in the Foreign Service, served as Ambassadors, Mayors, Judges. Held many Civil Service positions. Many are medical professions, and have hold directorship of hospitals.

(Council of Foreign Relations)

As an Australian, I feel guilty and ashamed. Not all our own people have such respect and opportunities.

As a gentle hint.

I would suggest that if one is citing/referencing from a media outlet or from other information sources, they do a fact check as to the veracity of their source.

Aljazeera is a propaganda outlet and untrustworthy. It posted a picture of supposedly dead Palestinians wrapped in sheets after October 2023. The picture originally was dated 2013 organised by Muslim Brotherhood students at the Al-Azhar University, Cairo and appeared on a youtube. channel.

Dear WhiteMouse,

«According to archaeological records, writings (and the developing Hebrew script), Jews have been in the area for 5000 years. They are the indigenous peoples.»

Ethnically speaking, yes, some of those who lived in the area 5000 years ago still (and/or again) live there now. These include some of the Jews and some of those calling themselves "Palestinians" who descend from the same tribe of Judea.

Religiously speaking, the first shoots of Judaism as a religion, or rather the first mention of the Jewish god, started only around 600 B.C, that is some 2600 years ago, and that god did not even resemble the present Jewish god - for example he had a wife. Judaism as we understand it today is a late product of the 12th century, even later than Christianity and Islam.

Ramesses II may have mentioned "Israel", but even if he did, according to archaeological research, the ancient Kingdoms of Israel and Judea were distinct and unrelated, they had no ethnic connection even.

Be careful of the Biblical stories - many of their claims were retrospectively faked (due to political rivalry between two clans of priests).

---

Dear Critic,

«So the Israelis ran them off and killed them and 'declared it' Israel.
True story.»

False story.

The Zionists-turned-Israelis were happy to have their country only on the tiny areas which they purchased as their land, should the native residents refuse their offer to join their new state as equals (which they did). Had the natives not brutally attacked them, they were happy to leave them alone and be left alone on their tiny patch.

Thank you for this information Yuyutsu. Absolutely fascinating.

I had always wondered if Jesus has been a rabbi.

Out of curiosity I had checked how many mosques there were in Israel - 400. There are 430 mosques in the whole of Australia. Considering the small size of Israel, Muslims are very well accommodated.

The Palestinians have many times been offered their own state. The first 5 times:

5 times in the past Palestine has rejected offer of a state of its own.
africachinapresscenter.org

The first time they rejected an offer 80% of the territory!

I was sent a video allegedly recorded by Palestinian raiders of Oct 7 showing clips of the assault on that day targeting Israelis.
I still recall the film “Africa Adio” from the 1960’s & although the content was horrific, this video is something else. It really should be made compulsory viewing by those teachers who lead school children like in those recent demonstrations supporting Palestine. Any video showing a different angle of atrocities should also be made so these ignorant Australian teachers might possibly wake up to the insanity that is the middle East.

«So the Israelis ran them off and killed them and 'declared it' Israel.
True story.»

Are you saying the Nakba didn't happen?
That Israel didn't drive 750,000 Arabs off their lands in 1947 and 1948, executing people, poisoning wells etc.

I've got footage of the fighters admitting it.
Murdering people, burning them, raping them, putting them in cages.
I may not have put all events into a larger context, but I don't think you can argue those events didn't happen.

The first settlers started arriving in 1917, many fled Russia in the 20's as well as Europe in the 30's and after the war. There was already disharmony in the 20's, Palestinians didn't want the Jews, but they just kept of coming. Israel went all over the middle east looking for people to send back to bolster their population numbers against the Arabs.

The problem with 'a land without a people for a people without a land', was that some other people actually already did live there.

country only on the tiny areas which they purchased as their land, should the native residents refuse their offer to join their new state as equals.

Why would they want to join Israels apartheid state under Israels early terrorist like Irgun and Haganah rules?
Why would they not be offended by that offer when they were promised self determination if they fought against and ousted the Ottomans alongside our ANZACS?
If Indonesians came to Australia stole our territory and then invited me to become a citizen of their new state, how would you expect me to respond to that?
(Cant swear here sorry)

I've got nothing against Indonesians, but my response might be something like
'Why don't you all go and fondle yourselves',
- just as an example.

Do you own your own home Whitemouse?
I'm willing to make you an 80% offer on it.
You can keep the 80% and I'll take the rest.
Sound like a fair deal?

The closest parallel to the Gaza war as to what triggered it is the US led coalition against the Islamic State of 2014-2019. In both cases Sunni's political Islam (ISIS) engaged in wholesale slaughter of non-Arab non-Muslim peoples of the Levant, Kurdish speaking Yazidis (Israel's Jews by Hamas).

The war to destroy ISIS in Mosul covered a greater area than Gaza, but the urban fighting was similar to that in Gaza. The ratio of dead civilians killed for each ISIS member slain.

Similar military campaigns, yet the Western response has been very different. No-one demonstrated for civilians killed by Coalition bombing in the ISIS war. The West understood that the ideology and deeds of ISIS had to be removed, not withstanding the ugliness and tragedy of innocent deaths.

Why that stark contrast? The place of Jews in both Islamic and Western political culture and conversation. Antisemitism.

(Middle East Forum)

Antisemitism has no logic. Is a mental illness - an illogical phobia.
It needs to be treated as such with counseling and medication.

Thanks Indyvidual for the information on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa_Addio
Sounds like a summary of Africa... as they say... there are no woke or socialists in a prison.

"So the Israelis ran them off and killed them and 'declared it' Israel.
True story."

Not that the Hebrew's have always been perfect themselves (if you disagree with Hebrew's you are by definition Anti-Semitic)- but Israel was a "solution" that arose due to a different "solution" during the WWII period due to the Hebrew's being a stateless people.

White people's of the world are being disenfranchised from territory greater than many other ethnic groups so that they will themselves soon become stateless and probably extinct. Ironically white nations have done more for protection of ethnicity and stabilization of the world in the last 500 years than most others.

Despite perceived or imagined sleight's of the Hebrew's on our culture we need to be aware that some of the situations of the Hebrew's are similar to our's. But it is hard for the average person who has a low interest in politics to understand the subtleties requiring mental maturity. But as with every situation if we believe that we have been sleighted we need to act in our own enlightened self interest and not cop out on our responsibility to ourselves.

Judea was a particularly difficult province for Rome to govern and after several attempts they finally enslaved and scattered the Judean peoples. If Judea had paid Roman taxes Jerusalem and Masada would be more intact today. Rome felt they needed to civilize the Mediterranean Sea (due to multiple incursions into Europe that continued into the 1300's) and Judea didn't want to do what the Roman's wanted- hence the conflict.

After Middle Eastern Judea was scattered by European's some say Judean's attempted to disrupt Europe from within. Some governments decided to create laws regulating the behavior of Judean Hebrew's within their nation because they saw them as a disruptive influence- aren't government's supposed to govern?

Rise of universalist principles such as Locke Liberal Democracy redefined (revisionism) localism as evil. The US founded on similar principles some contradictory at some levels. For example the 1. "a government of the people" with 2. "freedom of religion (and ethnicity)". Once you have "freedom of religion" in a sense "you don't have a people"- "you have many peoples". According to the "government of the people" principle you now need many governments for the many peoples. If the religions are very similar it may be possible to cohabitate a territory on the basis of a working relationship.

In a sense the western world has become an experiment to conduct missionary work on an industrial scale educating the world in certain principles- mobilizing the whole population in the project. While there is benefit in missionary work to a point for the commonwealth this universalist globalist project seems to be a sick imitation of healthy society- benefitting no one.

There will always be hierarchies in societies and hierarchies of individuals in organisations and hierarchies of nations- according to principles including value. Pray that we know when to "stand up" and "stand down" but never give up our lives to those that would make us mistrust our own judgement.

Most conflicts have an ethnic component- even ones that don't appear to- forcing many ethnicities together in multiculturalism seems likely to accelerate conflict exponentially. Why would certain people want to destroy the white cultures and create an unstable world.

Communist's seem to use a Taoist philosophy- "do something by doing the opposite" (principle of action through inaction is known as "wu wei". Tao Te Ching). The create peace by good defense (peace by "total war") is a principle known in many political philosophies but not so much about "equality by tyranny", "freedom by slavery (disarming the public, politicizing workplaces/ the academy, etc)", "truth by stopping discussion", and others. How could we let this happen- Orwell wrote "1984" in the 60's?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrestricted_Warfare
Interesting tactics apparently also used against white people in the western world under so called "affirmative action".
http://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/19/break-their-lineage-break-their-roots/chinas-crimes-against-humanity-targeting
Taoism adopted by Hippies
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/taoism/taoethics/ethics_1.shtml

Communism seems to have captured the revolutionary spirit. Traditionalists need their own revolutionaries.

Sounds like some fwits on this thread:

"On October 7 last year, after two years of ceasefire between the democratic state of Israel and the Hamas Islamist dictatorship in Gaza, Hamas, without provocation or warning, began firing rockets at the cities, towns and kibbutzes of Israel. Then at 6.30am that day more than 1500 terrorists from Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad breached the border fence in southern Israel and attacked the unarmed and unprotected civilian population there.

Almost immediately there was a response from people in the West and in the Middle East. Most people in Western countries were repulsed by the reports of massacre, torture, beheadings, burning people including babies alive, and other sadistic atrocities against hundreds of Jewish civilians, and more than a few non-Jews, by the terrorists. Yet on the streets of many Arab nations, there were expressions of joy and sympathy for the terrorists.

Even more shocking was the expression of support for the terrorists in Western universities and among some in the Western entertainment industry.

On the day of the October 7 ­attack (October 8 AEST), University of Sydney politics professor John Keane raised the Hamas flag on his X account. Despite the quickly accumulating evidence of appalling barbarism by the terrorists, he never took it down. Nor did he denounce the terrorists for their inhumane war crimes.

Instead, as soon as the Israeli armed forces began their counter-attack in self-defence against the terrorists, who had fled back to Gaza with 240 mostly civilian hostages – another war crime – Keane began a tirade of posts denouncing Israel as engaged in genocide against the Palestinian people."

looking at you AC.

Victims?

http://www.youtube.com/shorts/e5rSFXa0iuI?feature=share

"Last week, at a mosque in Sydney’s southwest, imam Sheik Youssef Nabha appeared to encourage people of Lebanese descent to stay in Lebanon, implying it was all right to be allied with Hezbollah, while stirring animosity against Israel and promoting anti-Semitism.

On Tuesday, The Australian reported that another Sydney-based cleric, Abu Ousayd, known for his anti-Semitic rants, delivered another anti-Semitic tirade on New Year’s Eve, saying “Jews were descendants of pigs and monkeys”.

These events among our Muslim community should give cause for serious concern.

According to the NSW Anti-Discrimination Body website: “Racial vilification is against the law. It is a public act that could incite hatred, serious contempt or severe ridicule towards people of a particular race … Public acts include: communications that can be seen or heard by the public (this includes print, radio, video or online).”

Given this, we should rightly ask: Why aren’t these Muslim leaders being called out by our leaders and charged by the appropriate authorities?"

Why aren’t these Muslim leaders being called out by our leaders and "charged by the appropriate authorities?"

. Because they are not 'leaders'
. They are intellectually incapable
. They are interested only in the 'careers'
. They feel the same way as the Muslims do about Jews
. The Australian electorate is too apathetic to oust them

There are plenty of reasons why the Canberra Clowns do nothing. The big question is, why do Australians allow to get away with it.

I hear the 84 pages of South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice on Israels Genocide, Incitement to Commit Genocide is well written, evidence based and thorough and absolutely damning.

So pop that in your pipe and smoke it SM,
They're guilty by their own words and actions.

"Even more shocking was the expression of support for the terrorists in Western universities and among some in the Western entertainment industry."
- Maybe they know or understand things that you are incapable of comprehending SM, maybe they don't cheer on the murder of women and kids like you do?

Read the full application bringing genocide charges against Israel at UN top court
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/read-the-full-application-bringing-genocide-charges-against-israel-at-un-top-court

I guess being tainted with a genocide label pretty much voids ones permanent victimhood status.
- A bit hard to complain about NAZIs when you're busy act like them.

Excrement will foul the immediate surrounds for some time but invariably it disappears out of sight as fertiliser !

I liked JK Rowlings comment on the Neo-Nazi's at the Pro-Palestinian Pro-Communist rally. The Neo-Nazi's appear to see Communism and Hebrew's as on the same side. Not sure what Thomas Sewell's reason is for coming down on the side of the Palestinian's in this case. Maybe they just admire that the Palestinian's seized the initiative in the race war. Maybe they see Hebrewism and Palestinian ethnicity as similarly part of the twelve tribes but Hebrewism as an errant branch. If the media allowed the Neo-Nazi's to speak at least they could explain their position- and maybe we would learn something. As Voltaire said...

Personally I favour the Soloman Solution- don't do business with either of them until they work it out- but a stable world needs the west to control the oil.

I'm interested in hearing the ideas behind the ideas.

Shadowminister said "On October 7 last year, after two years of ceasefire between the democratic state of Israel and the Hamas Islamist dictatorship in Gaza, Hamas, without provocation or warning, began firing rockets at the cities, towns and kibbutzes of Israel."

Answer- Wikipedia has some interesting information on the range of Hama's rockets- from memory they are recently able to reach 200 kilometres.

Also it's interesting to see the authorities reactions in not enforcing the law. Seems like a kangaroo court. I suppose the authorities have been complicit in creating this instability over many years and now don't know what to do- amusing in a sense.

Those that play with fire get burnt hands.

A year ago, head of ASIO Mike Burgess reported that there was an alarming increase in children lured to extremism, and they were the focus of more than half of ASIO's highest priority investigations each week. Some of the children were as young as thirteen ... and non had parents interested in Islamic extremism.

More worrying is that the extremism of these children is very intense,
willing to take leadership roles and violent action, grooming other minors even in schools, showing disgusting and graphic material until it was normalised.

(The Strategist)

We have already had a number of Islamic attacks in this country - Holdsworthy Baracks, a police station, and a couple attacks against citizens in the street.What was our government thinking of when they admitted thousands of very disgruntled migrants into our country?

For the battle to end, it only needs for Hamas to release the hostages and put down their weapons. So very easy.

Hamas don't care about the Palestinians, seeing Palestinian deaths as a necessary part of their play script. The greater numbers of dead and injured the better.

Hamas is a degenerate, fundamentalist and extremist Islamic organisation. Undoubtedly they see their deaths as martyrs, with 72 virgins waiting for them (do women martyrs also have 72 virgin men waiting for them?)

This is the weakness of Hamas and should be exploited ... a rumor that Israeli ordnance is embedded with pig oil.

They should say they will trade the remaining hostages for Netanyahu.
(basically that would be a no, not getting them back yet)

Baldrick,

I have read through the 84 pages of South Africa's submission to the UN court and it is 84 pages of evidence-free waffle consisting almost entirely of conjecture and innuendo.

http://t.me/NewsWorld_23/3917

As I said before whenever you start a sentence with "I heard that" whatever follows is pure bollocks.

Hi shadowminister,
"I have read through the 84 pages of South Africa's submission to the UN court and it is 84 pages of evidence-free waffle consisting almost entirely of conjecture and innuendo."

- Sounds just like when I read your comments

Israels war against the Palestinians isn't going too well.
The IDF are being slaughtered and their military is being shamed.
http://youtu.be/5PfDC9jGS9w

Baldrick,

Can you even read? You write like a chimpanzee.

As for Israeli soldiers being slaughtered, 174 Israeli soldiers have died in Gaza whilst nearly 10,000 Hamas militants have been liquidated along with nearly all Hamas tunnels, fortifications and weapons storages and nearly 4000 captives.

Read up on the facts before you look like a moron again.

You can only keep a false narrative going so long before facts on the ground and video footage start to prove the narrative bs.

Where do you get you fake facts from?

Heres a lovely murder for you to celebrate
(I know how you get all toey and excited over this kind of thing)
https://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1744593996264169898

http://twitter.com/drhossamsamy65/status/1742195566904258988
Soldier Elisha Madin, son of Rabbi Yaakov Madin, who issued a fatwa permitting the rape of #Palestinian women.

He is the only survivor of his group in the paratroopers unit, when an explosive device exploded among them in #Gaza. They were all killed, and he remained amputated.

Israel minister calls for 'ways more painful than death' for Palestinians
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240106-israel-minister-calls-for-ways-more-painful-than-death-for-palestinians/
- Keep it up stupid, more evidence for the ICJ.

War on Gaza: Fighting has 'disabled' 12,500 Israeli soldiers, estimates show
http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/war-gaza-over-12500-israeli-soldiers-disabled-israeli-outlet-reports

This is karma, for screwing these people over for 100 years.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1743390506623860890

Shame things had to go this way.

Baldrick,

More drivel from you again:

1 Jews don't issue Fatwahs only Muslim imams.

2 The woman who was shot was probably shot by Hamas.

3 You don't even read the article you linked to. It does not claim that 12500 Israeli soldiers have been disabled only that 2300 have been wounded, most of whom will probably recover fully.

4 You still haven't commented on the 8000 to 10000 Hamas terrorists killed or their leaders being assassinated in Lebanon.

1 Jews don't issue Fatwahs only Muslim imams.
- Yeah I dunno how I missed that. what an idiot.

2 The woman who was shot was probably shot by Hamas.
- Maybe Gazans have been bombing themselves for 3 months.

3 You don't even read the article you linked to. It does not claim that 12500 Israeli soldiers have been disabled only that 2300 have been wounded, most of whom will probably recover fully.
- I thought the number seemed a bit big but its a nice headline.

4 You still haven't commented on the 8000 to 10000 Hamas terrorists killed or their leaders being assassinated in Lebanon.
- Well it's not worth commenting on.
Israel is desperately engaged in a propaganda war.
That's why they are parading men around in their undies.
They aren't Hamas, just regular blokes hungry and bribed.
Plenty of forced confessions and torture.

And what about Saleh al-Arouri?

I see they found your little pervert hidey place under the synogogue.

It's easier for the Pro-Israel supporters to believe that the Palestinians want to kill all the Jews;
- Rather than face the more ugly truth that on the Israel side it's actually all about resisting a negotiated settlement in favour of continued land theft and oppression, and that the Palestinians refuse to accept these things.

The Psychology of Israeli Propaganda
http://youtu.be/_YCQV_iUGRE

http://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1744668297499427033
An Israeli MP is getting impeached for saying it's legitimate for the International Court of Justice to check whether there is a genocide in Gaza or not
70 MPs from both gov & opposition signed the impeachment petition, more will join
PS. Ofer Cassif had condemned Hamas earlier

Israel is a Nazi terrorist state.
Good to know they are all fighting amongst themselves atm.
'Eating their own'
It shows they really are taking this ICJ thing seriously and are worried.
Innocent Palestinians might be dying, but Hamas is winning.

On October 7 Israel had the worlds sympathy.
- Then it went and showed the world who it really is.

"I remember when ISIS invaded Iraq , raping, murdering & kidnapping innocent civilians, there were no Pro-Iraq protesters!

I remember when Syrian dictator Assad murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, there were no Pro-Syria protesters!

I remember when civil war broke in Yemen which resulted in thousands of deaths of innocent civilians because of Iranian regime militia, there were no Pro-Yemen protesters!

I remember in Sudan, when civil war erupted last year & since then, thousands of civilians died, there were no Pro-Sudan protesters!

But…….

I do remember, each time terrorists attack the World’s only Jewish country, Israel, then, the IDF retaliate, we instantly start to see countless PROTESTERS of Pro-Palestine & Pro-Hamas!

Don’t tell me you give a damn about “civilians”, otherwise you all would have protested about every single souls being killed in all of our Arabic countries which I have mentioned some of it , what you are doing is simply JEW HATING/ISRAEL HATING techniques, using “innocent Palestinians” as a card to demote Israel, to make Jews look “evil”, to push for boycott this beautiful country, to have the “right” to attack everything Jewish, from innocent students in universities, to Jewish owned stores & not to mention anybody wears the Star of David or simply holding the Israeli flag!

You are no protesters, you are a hate filled, uneducated & uncivilized scumbags, you represent no body except your hateful mind.

I am Iraqi.
I am Arab.
I STRONGLY & FULLY STAND WITH Israel.

(Hayder Alasadi on X)"

Baldrick, (aka AC)

You are clearly no student of history. Supporters of Israel believe that Hamas and Fatah want to kill all the Jews because they have said so many times and do so whenever they can.

Similarly, of the last 17 times a negotiated settlement has been suggested it has been Israel that has accepted and the Arabs that have refused.

Please stop lying.

"what you are doing is simply JEW HATING/ISRAEL HATING techniques, using 'innocent Palestinians' as a card to demote Israel, to make Jews look 'evil', to push for boycott this beautiful country."

Maybe since the veil has been lifted on calling everyone anti-semites anytime Israel is criticised, theres a bit of a flood.

Calling people 'Anti-Semites' was going to realistically be a tough ask when you level building full of innocent people.
And everytime Israel does this, blow the crap out of Gaza, Israelis hold parties and sit back on lawn chairs cheering.

Nobody has to do anything to make Israel look evil.
Israels done a great job of that on it's own.

What's the common factor in all those wars you mentioned?
The United States of America.

The Unipolar world is over.
The American empire is crumbling.
The US does not have the military power it once had to project anymore.
They can't even fill recruitment quotas for the military.
Americans don't want to fight and die for Americas wars anymore.

I can’t help thinking that the strand that causes troublesome thinking in the DNA of the people there should become the number 1 in genetic engineering facilities.

LIVE: Watch ICJ hearings in South Africa's genocide case against Israel in Gaza
http://www.youtube.com/live/g2vQ7suQWGg

South Africa's case has been supported by the following states and international organizations:

Bangladesh
Bolivia
Brazil
Colombia
Cuba
Indonesia
Iran
Jordan
Lebanon
Malaysia
Maldives
Namibia
Nicaragua
Pakistan
Palestine
Turkey
Venezuela
Arab League
Organisation of Islamic Cooperation

What is the most significant thing you would take away from this list?
It's not what is in the list, it's what is not in the list.

For all the Wests incessant complaining about human rights violations in other countries... where are they?

AC none of the countries mentioned have been directly affected by israel, most have Arab sympathies. Most despise western culture.

.... and most of them have appalling human rights reputations. AC has really reached the bottom of the barrel.

An article in the Associated Press explains that:

"Barely two weeks after he was released from prison in 1990,
Nelson Mandela, flew to Zambia to meet with African leaders
who had supported his fight against South Africa's apartheid
system of forced racial segregation."

"One figure stood out among the men in dark suits eagerly
awaiting to greet Mandela on the airport tarmac. Palestinian
leader Yasser Arafat, had traveled to see the newly freed
Mandela."

"He grabbed Mandela in a bear hug and kissed him on both
cheeks. Mandela smiled broadly. It was confirmation of the
solidarity between two men who considered their people's
struggles for freedom to be the same."

"South Africans continue to support the Palestinian cause
and their country has taken the rare case of bringing
a genocide case against Israel at the International Court
of Justice because of its war in Gaza."

There's more at:

http://apnews.com/article/south-africa-palestine-israel-genocide-mandela-arafat-39d222b9dd6565994c4c13730efabe8815

Hi Josephus,
What's that go to do with anything?
Are you saying these people are driven by hatred of Israel
And that defense of innocent lives and opposition to genocide has no bearing on their support of South Africa and Palestinians.

I'm talking about the absence of western nations in what is a cut and dry case of genocide, and genocidal intentions proven beyond any doubt from the mouths of just about everyone in the Israeli government, including the military and the soldiers themselves.

And as for you ttbn, you just bring shame on yourself even talking about human rights and defending Israel in the same sentence.

You'd prefer to lower the Australian flag and raise an Israeli flag over this country instead.
No man can serve two masters.
I thought the lefties were deranged, but conservatives are just Israeli shills.

Think about that, I'll turn my back on conservatives and any direction towards those ends in this country, if all you mob stand for is getting on your knees to please your Jewish masters that you have some strange infatuation with, kind of like a pedophile has with children.

If you lot of conservatives wish to keep supporting Israel
- Then I'll support the progressives instead even though I don't really.

Why don't you just pack up and move to Israel?
Find yourself a nice billy club and go bash the skulls of some Palestinian women and children in.
Go get a 6 pointed star tattooed on your forehead you cuck.

My apologies I put in two many numbers.
Here's the link again:

http://apnews.com/article/south-africa-palestine-israel-genocide-mandela-arafat-39d222b9dd65994c4c13730efabe8815

You see this:

'Attack the Pacifists'
http://www.mit.edu/people/fuller/peace/war_goering.html

>>Later in the conversation, Gilbert recorded Goering's observations that the common people can always be manipulated into supporting and fighting wars by their political leaders:

We got around to the subject of war again and I said that, contrary to his attitude, I did not think that the common people are very thankful for leaders who bring them war and destruction.

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," Goering shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," I pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."<<

I support the internationally recognised processes put in place to stop genocides, ratified by both Israel and South Africa, and you attack me for it.

You're a NAZI just like the Jewish NAZI's you support unconditionally.
You may as well go and help with the genocide, since that's where your heart is at.

This whole idea, that supporting Israel = defending democracy is a total lie.

Given that Israel lobbyists have control of the US Congress:

And that Israel lobbyists in other countries seek to have the same influence, I'd argue that supporting Israel, is the exact opposite of supporting democracy.

Any Israeli influence whatsoever destroys democracy.

Hi AC,

Sooner or later Israel is going to have to negotiate
with Palestine and recognize Palestinian rights.
Otherwise it will destroy itself.

Dear Foxy,

«Sooner or later Israel is going to have to negotiate
with Palestine and recognize Palestinian rights.»

There is no point in negotiating, nothing whatsoever to gain from it, because whatever the "Palestinians" say, whatever they promise, they will not keep anyway.

Israel should just leave those cursed territories. Period. Not talk about it with anyone.
Those "Palestinians" will continue to wage war against Israel anyway, with or without an agreement, with or without a state, but once Israel leaves their land, Israel can at least have peace with the rest of the world, including with yourself, I believe.

«Otherwise it will destroy itself.»

Israel is destroying itself anyway.
It started doing so in 1967 when it swallowed those cursed territories.

I don't know what the answers are.
I just wish all these needless wars would stop.
And the people that deliberately cause them were removed from the scene.
And that everyone else could just live in peace and dignity.

I'm tired of seeing innocent people assassinated, and I'm sick of seeing dead kids.

It is a complex mess that's for sure.

All I can understand is that Israel can't continue to
keep on doing what it's done and is doing, and expect
different results. That's insane.

The same goes for the Palestinians.

Both have to be led to the table to sit down and try to
compromise so that both can live in peace side by side.
Israel has to get out of Gaza and the West Bank. Palestine
has to get rid of Hamas and have the Palestinian Authority
governing. Arab leaders have offered to help with the
reconstruction of Gaza. This offer should be taken up.

Netanyahu and his government must go.

Without changes being made - there will be no end in sight.

Foxy,

Many times the Palestinians have been offered a state of their own. They have always refused ... never even discussed it.

One starts to wonder what their IQ level is.

Armchair Critic,

You hate seeing dead kids.

When I was in my early teens, I was among the first to witness the immediate aftermath of hand-grenades thrown into an open cinema filled with families and small children, babies. Would you like me to describe it?

Jews don't see themselves as victims. They are a resilliant group.

Look at the number who have received Nobel Prizes n medicine and the sciences. Compare them with with groups understanding that they number so very little of the world population.

If you have ever had your life saved by medication or a medical procedure, the odds are extremely high that it was developed by a Jew.

Perhaps for the antisemites out there, all medication or procedures should be provided with information as to whether it was a Jew who developed it. Then antisemites can reject it.

WhiteMouse,

With all due respect - I suggest that you do your
research into the limitations that Israel has always
placed with each and every offer they made in
their negotiations with the Palestinians. Where
rejections were inevitable.

As for the Nobel laureates or any other individual Jewish achievements?
These are not people belonging to any Zionist powerful lobby
group
with agendas to manipulate their victim status.
They are achievers and individuals. And should be treated
as such. Here, we are criticising Israel's government policies
not individual people - whose achievements speak for themselves.

WhiteMouse,

As of 2023 Sixteen Nobel Prize laureates have been
Muslims, more than half of them in the 21st century.
Nine of the 16 laureates have been awarded the Nobel
Peace Prize while 4 have been for science and 3 for
Literature.

Do you know how many Muslims, doctors, nurses,
and specialists work in
Australia's hospitals - helping save Australian lives?

Hi Whitemouse,

If you want to attack me personally that's fine.
Please try to keep the more hostile comments off the main forum if possible.
- Not for my sake but for the sake of the forum itself.

- You can abuse me if you want but don't go too far, as there's a line that tries to uphold a certain level of respect and decency here.
I've probably been pushing the envelope a little too much lately I admit.

So, here I was making an assumption, you might be a member of the local chapter of Christians4Genocide, but it looks like I was wrong.

"When I was in my early teens, I was among the first to witness the immediate aftermath of hand-grenades thrown into an open cinema filled with families and small children, babies."

You can tell me about your experience if you want to.
I'm happy to hear the stories on both sides.

Do you think killing innocent people is a path to peace or more conflict?

I denounce the violence against innocents on both sides, (especially the kids) and I will always support negotiation and compromise over conflict.
Conflict itself is always a failure or absence of diplomacy.

Despite your comments towards me on the main forum...
(I understand it's a heated topic, and obviously you've witnessed some horrible things)

- I welcome you to the forum.
The discussions don't usually get this toxic.

Hi Yuyutsu,
I feel like I've fallen behind in responding to your recent comments on several threads.
I don't want you thinking that I don't care about your comments, or the effort you took to write them.
I'm not sure if I'll be able to catch up, but I have read them.

"Israel should just leave those cursed territories. Period. Not talk about it with anyone.
Those "Palestinians" will continue to wage war against Israel anyway, with or without an agreement, with or without a state, but once Israel leaves their land, Israel can at least have peace with the rest of the world, including with yourself, I believe."

I agree, If Israel was to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians (whether Hamas or otherwise) and come to some agreement that both sides could somehow accept (a tall order) then I absolutely assure you that if the Palestinians broke the peace and initiated attacks, I would denounce those attacks in the strongest terms.

Until then, without an agreement regarding borders, and whilst an occupation exists, I have to side with the oppressed over the oppressor.

I know Israel is a small nation, but Hezbollah can already hit everywhere in Israel if it wants to, Iran can also do so with ballistic missiles as well.

You say Palestinians would not keep their word to any deal.
I'm not in any way convinced Israel would either.
- Especially not under Netanyahu, and his hard-right government.

Dear Critic,

Thank you for your kind post.

«I agree, If Israel was to negotiate in good faith...»

But how can you "agree" with me on something I never said?

So let me ask you more precisely:

Should Israel withdraw unilaterally, as I suggest and hope, from all the territories it took in 1967, returning to its pre-1967 borders, and should despite that Israel still be attacked afterwards by anyone without provocation, will you then side with Israel?

«I know Israel is a small nation, but Hezbollah can already hit everywhere in Israel if it wants to, Iran can also do so with ballistic missiles as well.»

Which is why Israel must keep its nukes, and hopefully never have to use them. Iran never cared about "Palestinians" - its regime will keep hating Israel forever just because Israel used to be the deposed Shah's best friend.

«I'm not in any way convinced Israel would either.
- Especially not under Netanyahu, and his hard-right government.»

Yes, that grandmaster knocks out everyone in the sport of lying.

Why look at the international arena?
He made a rotation deal with the opposition leader, Benny Gantz:
"I'll be prime-minister for 18 months, then it will be your turn for the next 18",
but once 18 months passed, Netanyahu pulled up a trick from his hat (deliberately failing to pass the annual budget) in order to bring about fresh elections instead.

Hi Yuyutsu,
I was agreeing to the withdraw to 1967 borders part of your comment, sorry.

"Should Israel withdraw unilaterally, as I suggest and hope, from all the territories it took in 1967, returning to its pre-1967 borders, and should despite that Israel still be attacked afterwards by anyone without provocation, will you then side with Israel?"

Assuming they can come to some agreement where there's no unresolved issues from the 1948 - 1967 period, or earlier
- as if there are they need to be addressed so it can be put in the past..
Otherwise it's still an unresolved open wound.

- Yes ABSOLUTELY, If Palestinians break the peace, I will denounce it and side with Israel.
But if Israel breaks the peace, I will denounce it and side with the Palestinians.

I said in the beginning I really didn't support one side over the other in particular, but if forced to make a choice I'd have to support the occupied over the occupier.
I said this isn't about religions but about humanity.

The first thing (in my mind) that needs to happen is recognition of each others borders.
'You leave us to live our own lives in peace and we shall do the same for you'
Neither side gets everything they want, but there has to be compromise for the sake of peace or it won't ever happen.
- Where else can peace realistically begin?
First both sides need to reconcile.

[Cont.]
"Which is why Israel must keep its nukes, and hopefully never have to use them. Iran never cared about "Palestinians" - its regime will keep hating Israel forever just because Israel used to be the deposed Shah's best friend."

Fair enough, but if Iran keeps conducting assassinations on foreign soil, they are creating a context where Iran can say argue they need them for a deterrent, then Saudi Arabia will want them... etc.
- Iran are getting bolder - they did the same on the Mossad HQ in Erbil, Iraq yesterday.

Too many dead kids, they deserve a chance and a future too, don't they?
And they will never have one until everyone else starts being adults.

Would it work in reality, would the peace hold?
I don't know, there's a lot of animosity between these two peoples.

Either we let this thing blow up and hundreds of thousands more people die for nothing;
Or we try to do something different, give real peace a chance, try to all get along and move on.
What other choice is there?

I may have other 'Anti-Semitic' criticisms...
(Messianic ideas and overrepresentation of media influence and other nations politics) put them aside
As for this, just give me a reason not to have to choose one side over the other.
Israel needs to reconcile with Palestinians, compromise and state it's borders.

Now, lets talk about 'Al Aqsa Flood'
- The name of the Hamas operation on October 7.

If you were going to write a movie about these events, you'd probably have to go back a week earlier.

Oct 02, 2023 - Israeli police enter Al Aqsa Mosque during tense Jewish holiday
http://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/2023/10/02/israel-tightens-security-around-al-aqsa-as-settlers-enter-compound/
'Dozens of settlers break into compound in successive groups through Moroccan Gate'

Oct 02, 2023 - Israeli police escorts nearly 1,500 Jewish settlers into Al-Aqsa Mosque as Sukkot holiday arrives
http://www.newarab.com/news/sukkot-about-1500-israeli-settlers-allowed-al-aqsa
According to the Islamic al-Awqaf authority, 1,142 settlers entered the Al-Aqsa Mosque through the al-Magahrabeh Gate between 07:00 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. An additional 326 entered after the conclusion of the afternoon Muslim prayer.

Oct 03,2023 - Hundreds of Israeli settlers storm Al-Aqsa complex on 4th day of Sukkot holiday
http://www.anews.com.tr/middle-east/2023/10/03/hundreds-of-israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-complex-on-4th-day-of-sukkot-holiday
Hundreds of Israeli settlers on Tuesday forced their way into the flashpoint Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in occupied East Jerusalem on the fourth day of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, according to the Islamic Waqf Department.

Oct 5, 2023 Hundreds of illegal Israel settlers storm Al-Aqsa complex on 5th day of Sukkot holiday
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231005-hundreds-of-illegal-israel-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-complex-on-5th-day-of-sukkot-holiday/
Hundreds of illegal Israeli settlers, on Thursday, forced their way into the flashpoint Al-Aqsa Mosque complex in Occupied East Jerusalem on the fifth day of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, according to the Islamic Waqf Department, Anadolu Agency reports.
In a statement, the department said that at least 240 settlers entered the site under the protection of Israeli police.

Oct 4, 2023 On the sixth day of Sukkot Jewish holiday, hundreds of Israeli fanatics break into Jerusalem's Aqsa mosque
http://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/137922
Hundreds of fanatic Israeli settlers Thursday morning broke into the compounds of al-Aqsa Mosque under heavy protection from the Israeli police, marking the sixth day of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot.
The extremist settlers, divded into groups, raided the holy Islamic Mosque and took provocative tours in its compounds.
It added that the settlers performed Talmudic rituals in the eastern part of the Mosque.

17 Sep 2023 - Israeli forces attack Palestinian worshippers at Al-Aqsa Mosque
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/9/17/israeli-forces-attack-palestinian-worshippers-at-al-aqsa-mosque

"Israeli forces have attacked Palestinian worshippers at Bab as-Silsila, one of the main entrances to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem, according to local sources.

Israeli forces imposed tight security measures on Sunday, ejecting worshippers from Al-Aqsa Mosque and intensifying their presence around it, denying access to any Palestinian below the age of 50 to clear the way for Israeli settlers on Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year."

- So, tensions had been rising for several weeks prior to Oct 7.

Dear Critic,

I was not following closely on the Al-Aqsa events at the time, because there is nothing I can do about it other than vomit.

Had I been able to do just one good service for humanity, I would land 1,000 tons of supersonic bombs to vapourise that cursed Western Wall in Jerusalem, being the source of power and inspiration for the criminal Jewish Messianic settlers (I would of course do so in the middle of the night in order to minimise the casualties).

Need I say any more on that topic?

Nevertheless, the peace-loving people who were murdered in the Kibbutzim surrounding Gaza and the Nova music festival nearby, and those who now suffer unbelievable pains as hostages in Gaza's tunnels, are ANYTHING BUT the bloody Jewish settlers who provoke Muslims in Al-Aqsa, and whom I would gladly send to those tunnels instead.

«Assuming they can come to some agreement where there's no unresolved issues from the 1948 - 1967 period, or earlier»

Well you and I know that this is an impossible fence to cross.

«Otherwise it's still an unresolved open wound.»

Indeed, but an open wound is better than an open occupation.
If you insist on the impossible then nothing can happen for the better.

«The first thing (in my mind) that needs to happen is recognition of each others borders.»

As far as I am concerned, the border of Israel is that of June 4th, 1967.

Some Arabs will never ever recognise Israel's existence, hence no chance they will recognise that border.
Nevermind, Israel can and should continue even without such recognition. I hope it at least gets yours then.

[continued...]

[...continued]

«Where else can peace realistically begin?
First both sides need to reconcile.»

Peace and reconciliation in that region are not realistic goals.
Still, Israel's 1967 occupation must end, Israel cannot afford to wait for peace, forever.

«Too many dead kids, they deserve a chance and a future too, don't they?
And they will never have one until everyone else starts being adults.»

If you seriously want an answer then I could be tempted to provide you with a metaphysical answer,
but that would take us right off the topic.

«Iran are getting bolder - they did the same on the Mossad HQ in Erbil, Iraq yesterday»

That's what they claim. Please allow me to doubt it.

«Would it work in reality, would the peace hold?»

Peace is unrealistic, but a longer cease-fire is.

«I don't know, there's a lot of animosity between these two peoples.»

The tragedy is that there are more than two people there.
Most ordinary people hold no animosity, but the fanatics on both sides won't allow them to live peacefully.

Perhaps they should just bulldoze the Al-Aqsa mosque then there won't be anything to fight over.

They're doing that with Gaza and the West Bank.
How's that working out?

very well

Not according to the Internal Court of Justice in
the Hague and world public opinion.

This captures the subject in a nutshell

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/cartoons/johannes-leak-cartoons/image-gallery/de8f7d34d6dcf6dbb2f01239663cedd7