Hi Yuyutsu,
"The question is just, how can both sides rid themselves of their extremists."

Well I guess that's a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction.
Constructive discussion is far better than hate and blame.

"Israel is now helping the Arabs to get rid of their Hamas..."
"...but who will be helping Israel in the day after this war, to get rid of its crazy Messianic settlers?"

For all the bickering on this forum lately
It's truly refreshing to see that some can put their thoughts towards a constructive way forward.
Good on you Yuyutsu, that may be be the best comment I've read in days.

I found out a little bit more about what happened on Oct 7.
Hamas broke out on Oct 7 and killed hundreds of IDF.
Many were slaughtered right in their barracks.
This is why there was no significant response for 6 to 7 hours.

What I think happened after the IDF had many of their own killed:
- I think many of them went on a rampage of sorts.
I know that Apache gunships were shooting many people indiscriminately at the music festival, and that commanders ordered tanks to fire into the Kibbutz.
I heard that up to 80% of the civilian casualties were caused by the IDF, but even I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept this number.
I certainly do acknowledge that either Hamas or the Islamic resistance groups did indeed shoot innocent Israeli civilians.

The reason Hamas took hostages was because Netanyahu said Palestinians would never get their people back.
(many Palestinians taken without charge and held in prisons indefinitely)
Hamas planned to trade hostages for their own people.
Israel hasn't told the truth, because what happened is too embarrassing to admit.

I heard the US might be about to put pressure on Israel.
This conflict has put them in a bad situation with other M/E nations, and risks ruining any plans they have in the region for a generation or longer.
I also heard there will be a ceasefire and a hostage trade soon.

Dear Critic,

«I found out a little bit more about what happened on Oct 7.
Hamas broke out on Oct 7 and killed hundreds of IDF.
Many were slaughtered right in their barracks.
This is why there was no significant response for 6 to 7 hours.»

You found only now? All that was reported on the day in Israel's mainstream media.

«I know that Apache gunships were shooting many people indiscriminately at the music festival»

The massacre in the festival was so early and surprising that the IDF only found what happened there many hours later, when nothing could be done about it. None but the IDF has Apache gunships.

«I heard that up to 80% of the civilian casualties were caused by the IDF, but even I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept this number.»

I don't have numbers about the wounded (Israel had about 4,000), but according to http://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/defense/article/14712943
the number of civilians mistakenly killed by friendly fire was exactly 3. Three too many of course.

«and that commanders ordered tanks to fire into the Kibbutz.»

A few individual senior commanders who managed to get hold of a tank in person, came in to defend the kibbutzim. Their tanks were hit several times and once they could no longer shoot, they continued to trample down Hamas militants on kibbutz grounds.

«Israel hasn't told the truth, because what happened is too embarrassing to admit.»

What exactly was untold?

Israel has free press and what you mentioned above, other than this strange Apache claim, was openly reported in Israel's mainstream media.

«I also heard there will be a ceasefire and a hostage trade soon.»

I read that Gazan civilians started looting Hamas bases.
The more they do the job themselves, Israel need not and will not enter any further, thereby there will be not only a ceasefire, but peace!

Hi Yuyutsu,
Yes some of this stuff was known, when I said 'I only found out' this was more about putting the events into the right perspective.

You can take this with a large helping of salt if you wish, but this is where I got the info.
If you watch 10 minutes or more of this you should get the info I was talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/live/d8z8lDsZU-k?t=940

Even he says 25% were IDF casualties (as SM stated) and 80% civilians killed by IDF (not sure if true)
- But I've seen lists that show well over 50% were Police or IDF.
(maybe the addition of Police to this number is where the discrepancy lies)
http://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17q7yjl/israel_released_a_list_of_the_dead_on_7th_october/

I have seen footage of the helicopters shooting people indiscriminitely, and I've also heard witness testimony in a video from a tank commander who was ordered to fire into the kibbutz, as well as survivor accounts, that said 16 of 18 hostages were killed in the crossfire.

This is footage of the Apache helicopter.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654
The tweet seems to link to an article by Middle East Monitor and another at they Greyzone

Report: 7 October testimonies strike major blow to Israeli narrative
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles
http://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

I can't find the video I saw of the IDF soldier right now, but if I come across it I'll share it.
- This may be the guy but I'm not sure, there was also a video interview somewhere.
http://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1723556704841850953
This tweet relates to info in this article.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza

Why are Israelis staging propaganda videos to keep Palestinians from going to hospitals?

http://twitter.com/DREDYCOHEN/status/1723364923290374566

[Readers added context they thought people might want to know]
"The woman in the video has been identified as Hannah Abutbul, a former Israel TV actress and a digital content creator. This is a staged video.
Check out her photo in this tweet, and notice the identical glasses that she’s wearing:
http://twitter.com/One_Dawah/status/1724235781676343506

Dear Critic,

Regarding Israeli civilians killed, Israel so far identified the bodies of 859. This includes 55 policemen, some fire-fighters and medics who came for help, 3 killed by friendly fire and one who died of a heart attack. It does not include civilians who are believed dead but whose bodies were not (yet) identified.

35 children aged 4-17 are listed as murdered, while no younger babies are listed.

Josephus is correct. Hamas is not interested in any 'two state' policy; it wants a state without a single Jew in it. Anyone who gets themselves out of the ABC/Guardian rut knows that nobody who is anybody believes such a thing will ever happen now. Even if Israel succeeds in eliminating Hamas, there is so much anti-Semitism close to Israel, and in the West, including Australia, that Israelis and Jews everywhere will never know peace. The unrestrained hatred displayed all over the world, and by two or three OLO posters, is disgusting.