Unlike over a dozen Western leaders and others, Albanese has declined the opportunity to include in his frequent overseas trips a solidarity visit to Israel.

The Albanese government has been "so negative to Israel in a whole series of policy shifts, it may well be judged as the most anti-Israel since the modern state of Israel was recognised in 1948". (David Adler, President of the Australian Jewish Association).

Things like:

. Withdrawing the limited recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital
. The changing of the official terminology in diplomacy now referring
to occupied rather than disputed territories
. Changing our UN voting pattern
. Doubling foreign aid to 'Palestinian territories' from $35 million
to $70 million annually,

are all indicators.

Funding of the UN agency, UNRWA, which runs schools in Gaza, and supports Hamas has also increased from $10 million to $20 million - to fund the reading of hatred and terrorism.

"Australian Labor government policy has poured petrol on the flames of Jihad and antisemitism". (Adler)

Like Jeremy the Jew hater Corbin, I think that they are in denial of their blatant antisemitism. Utterly shameful!

I'm sorry since when was Israel a state in Australia?
Is licking Israels butt a prerequisite to being 'Australian' now?

"Funding of the UN agency, UNRWA, which runs schools in Gaza, and supports Hamas has also increased from $10 million to $20 million - to fund the reading of hatred and terrorism."

- Well you don't have to worry about that now, because Israel has killed nearly 100 UNRWA aid workers in Gaza since Oct 7.

Israel-Hamas war is deadliest ever for UN aid workers, with at least 88 killed
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/nov/06/israel-hamas-war-deadliest-for-un-aid-workers-agency-leaders-ceasefire-call

Some of the policies are silly and indeed make no sense, like why not recognise Western Jerusalem as Israel's capital, where it clearly is and always been?

However, nearly half of Israeli citizens oppose its 1967 occupation, including Israel's Labor party:
what's wrong about Australia's Labor government supporting them for a change rather than Israel's present government?

Support Israel - sure, but a true good friend does not blindly support their friend's mistakes.

"Albanese has declined the opportunity to include in his frequent overseas trips a solidarity visit to Israel."

Israel is only of a minor concern to Australia, its not country of any real strategic importance, and a visit by Albanese at this time would not serve Australia's interests what so ever. In the past we have acted the sycophant of America, by dutifully following when the master has so ordered, American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were of no benefit to Australia. Nothing achieved by our involvement in those aggressive wars. We should not over involve ourselves to any great extent in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, other than to work through the UN in trying to bring about a peaceful resolution.

p/s If some of the Old Farts on this forum had their way we'd be at war with China, Russia and anyone else who isn't serving American interests.

Albanese's stubborn stupidity not to show courtesy and support to Israel is not just about Israeli Jews or their country; it's also of concern to Jewish Australians who are becoming aware that they might not be any safer in Australia than are Jews in Israel.

Not a thing is being done here to deal with the mad multicultural mobs calling for gassing of Jews. Albanese will not even uphold Australian law outlawing support for terrorism.

The terror attacks, including all those in the past, are not about a country or who occupies what part of it: they are all to do with Anti-Semitism - killing Jews.

When anti-Semites talk about the lack of importance of Isreal to Australia, they are really talking about the lack of importance of Jews to the Albanese government, and to them, the anti-Semites themselves.

Of the few comments on the topic, two are anti-Semitic

Pinochet had quaint ways of dealing with rebellious children in Chilean Universities, whence these lost in space attitudes are hatched and nurtured.

There is a video of Albanese screaming anti Jewish rants through a megaphone doing the rounds at the moment.

Get ready for an influx of (their) maligned Palestinians to be given hero status along with a free violin, to enter the safety of Australia as refugees. God help us!

The Anti-Israel agenda understood.
http://www.facebook.com/reel/333856199249738

You will not find this on ABC.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-israel-helps-thousands-of-gazans-evacuate-after-hamas-tried-to-trap-them?fbclid=IwAR3Q3o2EBlMNKzlpzldjMmFLNZDLTWpajTpyYiuEFfBWo4tX7IUw6GazzLE

An influx of Gaza Arabs? Nothing is more certain.

The problems of the West are demographic ones,. It's not ideology, it's demographics.

The Islamic population in Australia, for instance, has grown from around 80,000 40 years ago to over 800,000 now. In the three decades before 2011, for example, the Islamic population increased by 438 per cent. The Islamic growth rate is still three times the Australian average and it’s set to continue. Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world and the second-fastest (behind Hinduism) here.

As ALP-affiliated pollster Kos Samaras notes, immigrants vote for the Left at a 20 per cent higher rate than the Right. Due to our new demographics, the entire country could soon be a one-party ALP-state.

Canadian demographer Eric Kaufmann says that ulitimately, ‘It’s the ethno-cultural shift’ that’s the root of all our troubles" in the West.

ttbn,

Do you not think there is another humanitarian crises being created in Gaza? What would be your solution to the growing problem of world refugees, in Gaza and elsewhere. I assume from previous posts, with your fear of refugees, your not receptive to taking such people into Australia in any numbers, not now, and not in the future, the past intake also upsets you. Is that correct?

Paul

Of course there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza - caused by Hamas terrorists. Israel didn't just up and attack Gaza. It's all down to Hamas. Gazans are the responsibility of Hamas, whom many of the Gazans voted for.

You will have noted that surrounding Arab/Islamic countries will not take Gazans in. There is no reason, then, that the West should take them in. We have seen just how people from that part of the world act in Australia.

I don't have a solution. I am not required to have one, as your statement of the bleeding obvious that I am not "receptive to taking such people into Australia in any numbers, not now, and not in the future" clearly indicates. And, again obviously, I regard previous intakes of people inappropriate to our culture and beliefs as complete lunacy.

I believe that I have always made my attitude quite clear, and I really don't know why you had to ask.

ttbn,

By world standards the Palestinian refugees are relatively small in number, the largest concentrations are in Africa, including large numbers of Sudanese, added to that are refugees from Afghanistan, Yemen, Myanmar and the Ukraine. War is a major factor causing displacement of people, but famine, natural disasters and other factors also contribute to the problem. I believe you oppose all and any refugee intakes into Australia, for any reason, including the humanitarian consideration, White South Africans might be an exception for you. As an ardent right wing Nationalists, you support Australia for the (white) Australians. Correct? If you want to be racists and bigoted just say so, you're not alone there. Pauline Hanson, someone you recommended a vote for is certainly in that category. I'm sure the Lovely Pauline wont be championing the cause of Palestinian refugees anytime soon, or any other refugees for that matter, possible also with the exception of White South Africans.

To right TTBN, they were the most anti-Israeli opposition, now they are the most anti-Israeli government.

The anti-Israeli rhetoric on this blog is astounding, it doesn't take long for true colours to come out.

It's not hard to understand why. When the lemmings follow the msm who follow the government who follow the UN........say no more.

FireballXL5

As an ardent Trumpster its all one big conspiracy to you. Still following that sleazebag the Dangerous Doctor Donald, who through incompetence was responsible for the deaths of a million Americans from covid, ah, sorry, that's fake news as well, they didn't really die at all, they're happy and well and living in Donald' house, in Florida, Mar-A-Largo, as a tax dodge for Donald.

Have another bong Paul, I thought the subject was the anti-Israeli stance of the current government?

You choosing to bring US politics into the discussion just proves you are a lefty tosser trying to divert the post.

Tell me, why is the current government NOT anti-Isaeli?

FireballXL5

Paul's problem is natural. No drugs needed. Rude and crude; and of course, Green/Communist.

FireballXL5,

Australia's initial comments of condemnation following the October 7th attack by Hamas on innocent Israelis was appropriate and pro Israel. Now with things moving to a new phase of Israeli retaliation through "collective punishment" of innocent Palestinians, our comments are directed towards a humanitarian response, which is also entirely appropriate. Maybe you and others here believe the events of October 7th gave Israel the right to kill every bloody Palestinian in sight! Despite Zionist propaganda, Israel is showing little regard for the general Palestinian population, exercising a; "the end justifies the means" mentality, which is resulting in war crimes being committed by the Israelis. Should Australia be supporting and applauding Zionist criminality, NO!

ttbn,

I though you may have posted a response to my previous comment on world refugees, and the part Australia should be playing. Or do you believe in a no "Black Fellas" allowed into our cosy little country policy, end of story.

Paul

I did respond. You can't read properly. Besides, no matter what anyone says you will always call people who do not agree with your crap (the majority) 'racists'. You always call individuals a "racists", apparently ignorant of the singular and the plural. Or perhaps one of your knuckles accidentally drags over the 's'.

Calling people names is not an argument. It didn’t work against the NO voters in the truly racist Voice debacle. It won't work here.

Just to make things as clear as I can for you: I don't give a stuff about "world refugees", whom I regard as lying, country-shopping frauds, looking for a life on welfare, who take advantage of pathetic, cowardly Australian and other Western gutless-wonders posing as politicians.

ttbn,

Thanks for the response; "I (ttbn) don't give a stuff about "world refugees", whom I regard as lying, country-shopping frauds, looking for a life on welfare, who take advantage of pathetic, cowardly Australian and other Western gutless-wonders posing as politicians."

What you fail to realise is the vast majority of refugees, the over 30 million world wide, are stuck in camps, generally close to their homeland, they don't lie, or country shop, not looking for a life on western welfare. The majority hope when conditions improve to return to their homeland, for some that's impossible.

As for racism, not all racist are hateful people, some like the missionaries of old, were kind and loving folk, generous and self sacrificing, but a misguided product of their times. We shouldn't hold that against them. You are definitely not the "missionary" type of racist. You have your views, and so be it, and that's fine by me.

Paul,

I'm not sure if your information on 30 million unknown people is accurate, but at least they are not in Australia; and it is to be hoped that they will return to their own countries - but their desire to do so has a big question mark over it.

Another point I disagree on is your comment that "not all racist(s) are hateful people". Oh, yes they are. You just don't know what a racist is. A racist is not a person who objects to multiculturalism, and believes that that cultures should not be forced together. A racist is a person who believes certain races are inferior to his or her own race. That is nonsense, and I won't have a bar of it. You need to think about why different races, colours, cultures were put where they were on Earth at the beginning of time.

That individuals that have been let into this country who can celebrate the grotesque murder, rape, torture, dismemberment, decapitation and violation of young girls and babies is extremely disturbing.

We need to see arrests, convictions and deportation where possible for those who called for the gassing of Jews outside the Sydney Opera House, as well as strict new vetting processes for all immigrants.

Jordan Peterson describes multiculturalism as a "miracle of stupidity". The concept is "unsophisticated" and "puerile". You can't import the people without also importing their problems: as we are seeing right now, with mobs of Arabs on our streets, supporting terrorism, and getting away with it.

The idea of 'strength in diversity'; 'successful multicultural cultural country' is "preposterous".

Multiculturalism is the worst thing that ever happened to Australia, particularly in the 'refugee' intake, with people purportedly 'escaping' stuff that they are now spreading here.

The idea of 'strength in diversity'; 'successful multicultural cultural country' is "preposterous".

Forced immigration is a product of the business end of town, wanting a larger prospective workforce, the reserve bank for wanting lower wages and better export competitiveness and 'divide and conquer' by the elites so that a nation submits to international treaties and cannot unify or defend itself against globalism.

Comparative innocent victims.

http://www.facebook.com/watch?v=825324159343729

From a true Palestinian.
http://www.facebook.com/watch?v=825324159343729

Is Israel making the same mistake that it has always made - going soft under international pressure?

No ceasefire, but they have agreed to daily 4 hour breaks to allow civilians to escape. Who are these civilians? Hamas isn't uniformed; they look just like any other Arab civilians in Gaza.

And, what about reports that Hamas is deliberately stopping actual civilians from escaping so that they can continue to be used as human shields, and Hamas can continue going on about the number of them killed by Israel.

"From a true Palestinian.
http://www.facebook.com/watch?v=825324159343729"

I didn't know Palestinians wear the Yamaka.
I thought that was a Jewish thing.

If Israel doesn't like the criticism, then it should counter all the criticisms its detractors have by putting to rest peoples concerns,
Don't just blame everyone else for being 'Anti-Semitic' or 'Jew Haters' if you don't want to deal with the criticism.

Expect more of the criticism.
- Because with every innocent person killed there will undoubtedly be more.
Every bit of harm you do, there will be a response - a price to pay.

If you always do as you've always done,
- Then you'll always get what you always got.

Until then, expect criticism like 'supporter of genocide of children' and live with it, since that's team you're on Josephus, and that's what your team you defend is doing.

Anytime I hear the word 'anti-semitic' or 'Jew hater';
- You can expect 'child murderer' to be a part of the response.

Jesus sure as hell wouldn't support killing all these kids.
He'd probably be helping out in a Palestinian hospital, the downtrodden people tending to the wounded, he wouldn't be flying an F-35 or being present in an Israeli command centre.

If you are religious and you support Israel, you should ask yourself if you are supporting the devil.
You can have your beliefs, but I wont support harming innocent kids.
Most of the people on the planet will not support this either, so don't blame 'Jew hate' when Israel is doing what it's doing and we can all see it, despite their attempts to shut off the internet and hide it from the worlds view.

"ALP Might Be Our Most Anti-Israel Government Yet"

Well they can't be that bad, their ABC is still censoring the news for Israels benefit.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-10/israel-gaza-war-latest-updates-heavy-fighting-gaza-city/103088116

New videos of two Israeli hostages described as 'psychological warfare'

"The armed wing of the Palestinian group Islamic Jihad in Gaza released a video on Thursday showing an elderly woman and a young boy who were among about 240 hostages seized by militant gunmen who attacked Israel on October 7...

The ABC cannot confirm what conditions these videos were filmed under and has chosen not to share them."

Why is it I must go elsewhere to get the news?
Why is it that news organisations don't want to inform their readers and viewers?

What about other sources?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67373461
No, because it's a news cartel and they all follow a script.

How is it even a story, if they won't share what the hostages said?
I can show you what they said right here, this is the part the news networks didn't want you to see, thanks to Elon Musk.
http://twitter.com/PakistaniIndex/status/1722676819235672181

How can anyone trust the corporate media, when they homogenise the news specifically to manipulate the reader or viewer?

They don't want people being informed.
They just want to tell you 'Here's what you need to know' in order that you come to the opinion they want.

Interesting disclosure in the first article though...

"Gaza-based Palestinian militants seized the hostages during an assault on southern Israeli communities that killed some 1,400 Israelis and foreigners, the Israeli military has said.
The vast majority are believed to be in the hands of Hamas, but Islamic Jihad, a smaller militant group in Gaza that is allied to the territory's ruling movement, has said previously it held at least 30 captives."

- So you see, it wasn't all Hamas on Oct 7.
Others took their cue from the fence down as well.

When two groups are in conflict, the best way forward is to negotiate peacefully?
But human beings don't find doing that to be satisfying?
Instead, they want to engage in conflict: teach those *&$#+ a lesson.
It appears humans are programmed to be 'war-like'?
Almost any excuse for a 'war'?
Hence all the 'wars' going on on this planet?

None of us are in a war zone, experiencing the reality of conflict.
So we can only base our thoughts on what we are told.
(we assume the news we hear is reasonably accurate)
Allowing for this, I still think the Israeli response is 'over-kill'.
Better not to be so intractable?
Better to examine ones own attitude, and perhaps modify it?
Realise that other humans have a life to lead too.
Other humans have needs which must be met.
Wholesale destruction is NOT preferable to peaceful progress and improvement?

The time is fast coming when we will ALL need to work together to survive.
Climate change will not be denied.
The reality of surviving on this planet will, all too soon, be front and centre.
We really need to grow-up, and use reason in all our deliberations?
The time for dictators and aggressive governments to vanish is fast approaching?

Facts and lies

http://www.facebook.com/watch/?ref=search&v=345867797960823&external_log_id=c246fabc-ca9e-4cf8-97af-0bb9ca3bb9d8&q=Palistinian

Penny Wong has called for a ceasefire.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/penny-wongs-gaza-ceasefire-call-condemned/video/42e611671a44e09eaaa69c08668a64d7

"Leading Australian Jewish organisations have condemned Foreign Minister Penny Wong’s calls for a ceasefire in the Middle East. Penny Wong said Israel – as a democracy – needed to be held to a higher standard than Hamas, and called on Israel to cease the attacking of hospitals in Gaza. The Zionist Federation of Australia, and Executive Council of Australian Jewry, both criticised Senator Wong for spreading ‘false and harmful’ narratives about the war. Senator Wong stressed Australia was pushing for Israel to think twice before continuing its operation in Gaza. Peter Dutton also criticised the Foreign Minister's statement, saying she has shown 'scant regard' for the Jewish community."

The more it goes on the more Jews will be at risk of being attacked.
If Jews call Australia home, then Penny Wong is taking a stand that protects them from an escalation of hostilities against them.

- These Australian Jewish organisations obviously care more about Israel than potential conflict that may arise on our streets and in our own country.

Israel says this will be a long war potentially lasting up to a year.
The world will turn completely against Israel long before then.
Western countries now have far too many Muslims to ignore.

Penny Wong should cease or be fired.

AC, Hamas is worse than Hitler, and you believe we must stop the War. Hamas is still torturing and killing captives of Jewish families, so we must allow this to continue, and no action taken to stop this violence against civilians. A sick mind! Did we stop fighting Hitler just because civilians were being killed. Did we stop fighting Japan because civilians were being killed. Stop the War is a Palestinian plot to regroup and continue to fire rockets into Israel, chanting, "from the river to the sea Palestine shall be free". .

True Australians have traditionally supported the undog against the bully. That ethic was tainted a little through the Howard/Abbott and Morrison years but is still there in spades as evidenced by the large pro-Palestinian marches across the country. It is great to have a government again which better defines Australian values.

We're told that:

Australians all let us rejoice
But we're not one and free
We're told there are those who don't belong
'Cause they're not like you and me

They're the ones who've come across the seas
And we're not prepared to share
It's only with our own kind
We'll advance Australia fair.

Rule Brittania
Who once did rule the waves
But now it's many others
Some of whom are knaves

Our land abounds in wealth it's true
That's something we can rejoice
We simply have to learn and trust
To whom to give our Voice.

Hi Josephus,

Aren't you supposed to be a Christian, while at the same time supporting genocide in the so-called Holy land? (cursed land more likely)

What would Jesus think about this?

And btw Jews in Israel would spit on you.
They probably want you dead for being an idolator, but they enjoy too much support from western evangelicals.
One of Israels largest forms of revenue is from tourism.

"Hamas is worse than Hitler, and you believe we must stop the War."
- Have you heard the opinion of Holocaust survivor Gabor Mate who says Israel is 1000 times worse than Hitler?

- Have you read Herman Goering who says "All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Are you not attacking the pacifists?

"Hamas is still torturing and killing captives of Jewish families, so we must allow this to continue, and no action taken to stop this violence against civilians."
- Have you watched any of the footage from captured and released hostages?
Have you read the Hamas Charter?

"Did we stop fighting Hitler just because civilians were being killed."
The Nazis were a massive army that posed a direct threat to the whole world, but even then the British empire wanted war against them because they were becoming too powerful, no different than Americas stance towards China.

"Did we stop fighting Japan because civilians were being killed?"
Japan was also goaded into war by the US, read the McCollum memo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_memo

I support diplomacy, negotiations and compromise over war.
To avoid war one must put themselves in their adversaries shoes.
I see none of this happening.

I oppose the needless loss of human life, I will not support it (despite caring little for Islam, or Judaism for that matter)
- There must be another way than to kill all these innocent people needlessly, it's shameful.

http://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1723262591768592805
"Jewish Zionist lawyer in New York wants to kill all Palestinians:
We’ll kill all of you
Go to Gaza so they can rape you”

- If the Jewish oppressors supporting this occupation and expansion of Palestinian land say things like this, why is it no surprise that Palestinians call for Jews to be gassed?
Speaking the truth is neither hate speech nor Anti-Semitic.

Dear Foxy,

While you addressed Australia's official anthem, ceremoniously presenting Australia for naive external consumption,
SteeleRedux helped me to get an insight into Australia's true spirit,
through its unofficial, yet better known, anthem,
that supports underdog nomads who steal and kill other people's sheep,
while opposing the arrogant bully rich farmers who dare to attempt to protect themselves and their property.

I think there was an escape tunnel under that Billabong, full of rockets for the swagmen to shoot back at the farm...

I wonder what countries where Ms. Wong's personal lifestyle is frowned upon, even illegal, think about having to accommodate her as Australia's foreign minister: the Muslim countries she appears to defend against Israel, for example.

As Josephus says about Hamas: they are "worse than Hitler". The Nazis sought to cover up their crimes against the Jews, and in many cases they were ashamed of their actions.

Hamas, on the other hand, is proud of their brutalisation of Jews, and flaunts it at every opportunity. Hamas terrorists are arguably the worst of human animals ever.

Arabs and Leftists, Australian in name only, are not supporting any "underdogs": they are supporting terrorists, illegally, but safely in cowardly Australia.

There is no "genocide" in the Middle East. Not by Israel, anyway, as they are doing their level best not to kill Arabs non-combatants. It can be said that Hamas would like to commit genocide against Israelis, and they would do if Israel listened to the anti-Semites urging them to cease fire.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Give it over mate.

When Jews fleeing war and persecution were looking to create a homeland, Australia, primarily through the actions of Doc Evatt, became pivotal in realising it.

"Israel’s creation depended heavily on the actions of H.V. Evatt, the enigmatic Australian statesman who served as president of the UN General Assembly at the time of Israel’s admission to the United Nations. ... Evatt then guided the 1947 Palestine partition plan through the UN; in so doing, he transformed the history of the modern Middle East."

This was despite the terrorist activities of various Jewish groups including bombings, killings and kidnappings.

The was because he viewed those actions in the light of what had happened to the Jewish people.

Many Australians and the current Australian government reflect those values and are therefore supportive of the Palestinian cause. Therefore I would thank you to be a little less derisive in your tone, acknowledging of course the emotions you would justifiably be feeling.

Dear SteeleRedux,

«Israel’s creation depended heavily on the actions of H.V. Evatt, the enigmatic Australian statesman who served as president of the UN General Assembly at the time of Israel’s admission to the United Nations.»

Israel would have been created with or without the united-nations.
And I think it could probably have done better without them.

«The was because he viewed those actions in the light of what had happened to the Jewish people.»

The Jewish people indeed needed some solution, but artificially matching their post-holocaust plight with the Israeli Zionist plight, was probably not the best idea for either:

It forced Israel to compromise and become a Jewish state, which is not quite the Hebrew state which its founders intended it to be. And it made the Jews who wished to retain their respective cultures feel like homeless second-class Jews.

While Israel received some Jewish support over the years, it also suffers through its association with the Jews from the general sense of anti-Semitism which its founders wanted so much to escape.

Was this matching between Israel and the Jews helpful, is the "Jewishness" of Israel on balance more of an asset or more of a liability to Israel? That is really hard to tell.

«Many Australians and the current Australian government reflect those values and are therefore supportive of the Palestinian cause.»

Assuming such a cause exists - what is it exactly then?
Other than expressing anger, what do they actually want?

Dear Yuyutsu,

Just for the record the quote you seem to be arguing against came from the Australia/Israel Jewish Affairs Council.

http://aijac.org.au/australia-israel-review/doc-evatt-and-the-partition-plan/

What is wanted? What has always been wanted, a 2 state solution likely based on the 67 borders. And the removal of Israeli settlers in militarily occupied Palestinian territories.

Arabs and Leftists, Australian in name only, are not supporting any "underdogs": they are supporting terrorists, illegally, but safely in cowardly Australia.

Oh ttbn...

What do you know about the Jews and their religion?
http://www.wikinoah.org/en/index.php/Christianity_and_Noahide_Law

"Another consideration would be that even if Christians are considered at least partially observant Noahides, are they Chasidei Umos HaOlam (Righteous gentiles who observe Noahide law) or Chochmei Umos HaOlam? The former are considered to have a share in the world to come because they recognize Noahide Law as being revealed through mosaic (rabbinic) tradition, the latter are not considered to have a share in the world to come because they follow Noahide Law based on intellectual expediency."

Get this through your head.
Unless you observe Jewish Noahide law, then you and your kind are NOT considered to have a share in the world to come, the Messianic Age which Jews not only seek, but have set about achieving.

The Jewish religion is just as bad an ideology as anything.
- I don't want to live under ANY religious theocracy.

Not Islamic Law, Not Noahide Law, and not a place ruled by Christians either.
I support ethics.

I'm an Australian, I live a cold beer every now and again, I live pretty girls in bikinis, and I love BACON.

"There is no 'genocide' in the Middle East."
- I bet you'd have a different opinion if you were in Gaza and missiles were raining down on you and your families heads and you were surrounded by death.

Dear SteeleRedux,

«Just for the record the quote you seem to be arguing against came from the Australia/Israel Jewish Affairs Council.»

Well that is of course an Australian organisation, caring more for the interests of Australian Jews than for Israel's original interests. It understandably likes to take the credit for Israel's creation for itself, thus trying to make Israel feel indebted.

«What is wanted? What has always been wanted, a 2 state solution likely based on the 67 borders. And the removal of Israeli settlers in militarily occupied Palestinian territories.»

This they could have easily got many years ago, if only they wanted...
Alas, when that was still possible.

Why instead, did they beat down the Israeli peace-camp to dust, causing so many good peaceful Israelis to despair, leave the country and leave the Israeli democratic balance of power in the hands of Netanyahu, his settlers and his Nazi companions?

Tragically I cannot see how that can now any more be done.
By now, even if Israel wants it with all its heart,
I just see no body strong enough to uproot these Jewish settlers, certainly not the IDF:
they cannot truly be called "Israeli settlers", they may formally hold Israeli citizenship certificates,
but they are an American-imported cancer, now grown too big to remove.

It is now too late. The most Israel can do now, even with the best goodwill it can muster, is to leave the West Bank (including Eastern Jerusalem) along with its Jewish settlers, then let the pieces there fall wherever they fall.

Steele seems to have the answers to the situation but will not get involved at a diplomatic level in solving the unsolvable. Palestinians do not want a two State system for the area, perhaps Steele has not heard or understood the chant, "From the River to the sea, Palestine shall be free"? They want The Israel State totally removed, FULL STOP!

He is Ok with Israeli children being kidnapped and tortured, and Hamas continuing to fire rockets into Israel territory in their effort to remove Israel from the area, fulfilling their hope

Josephus,

Kindly stop stoking even more division on this forum.

Take a deep breath. I'll say a prayer for you.

Dear Josephus,

«Steele seems to have the answers to the situation»

But I love his answer very much, if only it were true, and if only there still was a power today that could enforce it.

Israel's 1967 occupation made it arrogant, it was born in sin, it corrupted Israel, it brought violence into every walk of its life, it stole away Israel's erstwhile good old humble spirit.

Those Jewish settlers came later, they are not true Israelis, they do not understand Israel's pain, their motives are not Israel's motives, their war is not Israel's war, yet by their presence they prevent Israel from healing itself.

By now these settlers are too strong to remove, thus Israel should have the courage to unilaterally disengage from both these cursed territories and from these settlers, even though it can no longer ask for peace in return.

May God help those two peoples who will be left behind, Jewish and Muslim, because nobody else can.

Hi SteeleRedux,
- The 2 state solution you referred to is an good as any, but I'm not entirely sure the Arabs would be satisfied with it.

Why?
Because the Yom Kippur war in 1973
(to which this current conflict was on it's 50th anniversary)
- Occurred because Arab militants wanted to take back land they felt was unfairly taken in 1967.
- That should tell you there are still problems with that potential settlement.
There would still be animosity from the Arabs and a feeling on land theft.

I'm not saying I don't think it's doable.
Both sides are going to have to compromise.
But I think in order to have both truly sides agree to it, there needs to be some kind of redress for lands taken back in 1948, and 1967.

And at the end of the day, I'm not sure the Zionists will ever be happy until they take the lot.

Dear Critic,

1. «but I'm not entirely sure the Arabs would be satisfied with it.»
2. «I'm not sure the Zionists will ever be happy until they take the lot.»

Neither generalisation is helpful - there is no such thing in reality as "the Arabs" nor "the Zionists". Both terms belong in the 19th century, and both terms are used by different people in 100's of completely different ways. Bundling them together is an indicator for having no real desire to solve anything.

Moderate Arab and moderate Zionist-Israelis have way more in common between them than between themselves and their extremist counterparts.
You can even find some Arab-Israelis who consider themselves Zionist!

Prior to October 7th, Israel was on the brink of splitting up into two Zionist states with pretty opposing values.

There always will be some people who disagree, with anything,
but most people are only concerned with practical issues rather than the historical.

The question is just, how can both sides rid themselves of their extremists.
Israel is now helping the Arabs to get rid of their Hamas,
and most Arabs are thankful to Israel for that, even while they wouldn't say it out loud,
but who will be helping Israel in the day after this war, to get rid of its crazy Messianic settlers?
Any constructive ideas are welcome!

Hi Yuyutsu,
"The question is just, how can both sides rid themselves of their extremists."

Well I guess that's a breath of fresh air and a step in the right direction.
Constructive discussion is far better than hate and blame.

"Israel is now helping the Arabs to get rid of their Hamas..."
"...but who will be helping Israel in the day after this war, to get rid of its crazy Messianic settlers?"

For all the bickering on this forum lately
It's truly refreshing to see that some can put their thoughts towards a constructive way forward.
Good on you Yuyutsu, that may be be the best comment I've read in days.

I found out a little bit more about what happened on Oct 7.
Hamas broke out on Oct 7 and killed hundreds of IDF.
Many were slaughtered right in their barracks.
This is why there was no significant response for 6 to 7 hours.

What I think happened after the IDF had many of their own killed:
- I think many of them went on a rampage of sorts.
I know that Apache gunships were shooting many people indiscriminately at the music festival, and that commanders ordered tanks to fire into the Kibbutz.
I heard that up to 80% of the civilian casualties were caused by the IDF, but even I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept this number.
I certainly do acknowledge that either Hamas or the Islamic resistance groups did indeed shoot innocent Israeli civilians.

The reason Hamas took hostages was because Netanyahu said Palestinians would never get their people back.
(many Palestinians taken without charge and held in prisons indefinitely)
Hamas planned to trade hostages for their own people.
Israel hasn't told the truth, because what happened is too embarrassing to admit.

I heard the US might be about to put pressure on Israel.
This conflict has put them in a bad situation with other M/E nations, and risks ruining any plans they have in the region for a generation or longer.
I also heard there will be a ceasefire and a hostage trade soon.

Dear Critic,

«I found out a little bit more about what happened on Oct 7.
Hamas broke out on Oct 7 and killed hundreds of IDF.
Many were slaughtered right in their barracks.
This is why there was no significant response for 6 to 7 hours.»

You found only now? All that was reported on the day in Israel's mainstream media.

«I know that Apache gunships were shooting many people indiscriminately at the music festival»

The massacre in the festival was so early and surprising that the IDF only found what happened there many hours later, when nothing could be done about it. None but the IDF has Apache gunships.

«I heard that up to 80% of the civilian casualties were caused by the IDF, but even I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept this number.»

I don't have numbers about the wounded (Israel had about 4,000), but according to http://www.israelhayom.co.il/news/defense/article/14712943
the number of civilians mistakenly killed by friendly fire was exactly 3. Three too many of course.

«and that commanders ordered tanks to fire into the Kibbutz.»

A few individual senior commanders who managed to get hold of a tank in person, came in to defend the kibbutzim. Their tanks were hit several times and once they could no longer shoot, they continued to trample down Hamas militants on kibbutz grounds.

«Israel hasn't told the truth, because what happened is too embarrassing to admit.»

What exactly was untold?

Israel has free press and what you mentioned above, other than this strange Apache claim, was openly reported in Israel's mainstream media.

«I also heard there will be a ceasefire and a hostage trade soon.»

I read that Gazan civilians started looting Hamas bases.
The more they do the job themselves, Israel need not and will not enter any further, thereby there will be not only a ceasefire, but peace!

Hi Yuyutsu,
Yes some of this stuff was known, when I said 'I only found out' this was more about putting the events into the right perspective.

You can take this with a large helping of salt if you wish, but this is where I got the info.
If you watch 10 minutes or more of this you should get the info I was talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/live/d8z8lDsZU-k?t=940

Even he says 25% were IDF casualties (as SM stated) and 80% civilians killed by IDF (not sure if true)
- But I've seen lists that show well over 50% were Police or IDF.
(maybe the addition of Police to this number is where the discrepancy lies)
http://www.reddit.com/r/socialism/comments/17q7yjl/israel_released_a_list_of_the_dead_on_7th_october/

I have seen footage of the helicopters shooting people indiscriminitely, and I've also heard witness testimony in a video from a tank commander who was ordered to fire into the kibbutz, as well as survivor accounts, that said 16 of 18 hostages were killed in the crossfire.

This is footage of the Apache helicopter.
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722527493780021654
The tweet seems to link to an article by Middle East Monitor and another at they Greyzone

Report: 7 October testimonies strike major blow to Israeli narrative
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles
http://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/

I can't find the video I saw of the IDF soldier right now, but if I come across it I'll share it.
- This may be the guy but I'm not sure, there was also a video interview somewhere.
http://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/status/1723556704841850953
This tweet relates to info in this article.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/israeli-tank-commander-hailed-as-hero-after-hamas-attack-is-killed-in-gaza

Why are Israelis staging propaganda videos to keep Palestinians from going to hospitals?

http://twitter.com/DREDYCOHEN/status/1723364923290374566

[Readers added context they thought people might want to know]
"The woman in the video has been identified as Hannah Abutbul, a former Israel TV actress and a digital content creator. This is a staged video.
Check out her photo in this tweet, and notice the identical glasses that she’s wearing:
http://twitter.com/One_Dawah/status/1724235781676343506

Dear Critic,

Regarding Israeli civilians killed, Israel so far identified the bodies of 859. This includes 55 policemen, some fire-fighters and medics who came for help, 3 killed by friendly fire and one who died of a heart attack. It does not include civilians who are believed dead but whose bodies were not (yet) identified.

35 children aged 4-17 are listed as murdered, while no younger babies are listed.

Josephus is correct. Hamas is not interested in any 'two state' policy; it wants a state without a single Jew in it. Anyone who gets themselves out of the ABC/Guardian rut knows that nobody who is anybody believes such a thing will ever happen now. Even if Israel succeeds in eliminating Hamas, there is so much anti-Semitism close to Israel, and in the West, including Australia, that Israelis and Jews everywhere will never know peace. The unrestrained hatred displayed all over the world, and by two or three OLO posters, is disgusting.

Hi Yuyutsu,

"Regarding Israeli civilians killed, Israel so far identified the bodies of 859."

I came across something last night that contradicted the earlier information I shared regarding the ratio between IDF and civilians killed.

- And it's closer to the number SM quoted, just over 30% IDF.

If you go to the Haaretz article and click the 'Filter by' button
- You'll see the numbers for each.

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000

So now we have contradicting information, and I'm not certain which one is correct.

Interesting that the x account that posted the first information here
http://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1722059911537033514
also reposted the second info here.
http://twitter.com/propandco/status/1724195309134270643

The Haaretz article currently states 771 civilian deaths
- With 1 child 'Mila Cohen', aged 10 months, from Be'eri

Hi ttbn,
"Josephus is correct. Hamas is not interested in any 'two state' policy; it wants a state without a single Jew in it."

That's not entirely accurate, facts matter.

If you go to the Hamas Charter 2017 you'll see this:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies

>>20. Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.<<

(I guess this is the part where Jews argue 'From the river to the sea' is Anti-Semitic' because it opposes the existence of the Zionist state of Israel; conversely though the Israeli flags 2 blue stripes top and bottom signify the same thing, so they're both as bad as each other)

In any case, it is said that Mahmoud Abbas is in Israels pocket and is not serious about a 2-state solution, which then makes Hamas the only real group to be seriously seeking a 2 state solution, but many say that Hamas only plans to use this as a stepping stone to take more.

AC

Your reference is 6 years old.

Yes, and this conflict is 75+ years old.
I think the 2017 Hamas Charter is the most recent one.

Dear Armchair Critic,

To a large extent I'm not sure exact numbers really matter at this stage. It was simply horrific enough even if 50% of those killed were IDF or other agencies.

I suspect of the Oct 7th the number is closer to 30% and would be wary of using the current Haaretz figures as they are being updated with daily IDF deaths from current operations.

Where I do think it is important is questioning the figure of 1,400 civilian deaths from Oct 7th are bandied about as justification for the continuous bombing of crowded Gazan cities. It is obviously not accurate and the truth does matter.

AC

The point is, nobody now expects the imaginative two state situation to ever eventuate, after 75 years of conflict and vows to wipe out the Jews. It's dead.

Six former Australian Prime Ministers have endorsed
the Australian government's support for a two state
solution between Israel and Palestine stating it
would be "the basis for long term lasting peace between
the Israeli and Palestinian peoples."

The six former PMs warned against letting the Israel-
Gaza conflict divide Australians. They issued a strong
statement declaring support for both the Jewish and
Palestinian communities.

The former Prime Ministers were_ John Howard, Kevin Rudd,
Julia Gillard, Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull, and
Scott Morrison.

The instigator of this endorsement was Josh Frydenberg
who contacted the Prime Ministers - and Penny Wong was
also consulted.

A great effort all round.

"The point is, nobody now expects the imaginative two state situation to ever eventuate, after 75 years of conflict and vows to wipe out the Jews. It's dead."

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.
Funny how Anthony Blinken was discussing this on Oct 8.
- He certainly wasn't discussing it on Oct 6.

Secretary of State Anthony Blinken on a two-state solution in Israel-Hamas war
http://youtu.be/-4ds4ddoGO0

http://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-with-margaret-brennan-of-cbss-face-the-nation-2/
"...We’ve said from day one that even as we’re working toward normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, that can’t be a substitute for resolving the differences between Israelis and Palestinians. We think the best way to resolve it — remains a two-state solution, and one that ensures that Palestinians and Israelis alike know equal measures of democracy, of opportunity, of dignity in their lives. That’s why we’ve been very focused on that track as well."

I'm not sure whether he's truly sincere or not.
Probably the same as the US saying it supports the 'One China' policy.

Given the fact that firstly he's a Jew and a neoconservative,
Jews run the Fed, a significant part of the media and the largest funds manager with 8.5 trillion in assets under management, and the entire US congress is controlled by the Israel lobby.

US President Joe Biden: “If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one.”
http://youtu.be/2HZs-v0PR44

The US needs the Arabs on side, it's the whole reason Israel exists
You need to go all the way back to the 1907 Imperial Conference.
- And the so called 'Campbell-Bannerman Document'

Now, this is a controversial document, in the same class as 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.
No evidence for it has proven to exist, but things happened exactly as was speculated.

[Cont.]
This is what the leading researcher had to say about it.
http://eng.alzaytouna.net/2017/09/28/political-analysis-campbell-bannerman-document-real-fake/

>>The “alleged” document states—according to the first part of the Malaf Watha’iq Felastin (Palestine Documents Dossier) published by the Ministry of Culture and National Guidance in Egypt in 1969 (under Gamal Abdel Nasser), p.121—that a secret “colonial conference” was held in London in 1905–1907, at the initiative of the British Conservative Party. It was attended by prominent historians, sociologists, geographers, agricultural scientists, petroleum experts, and economists. The supposed conference allegedly made a series of recommendations in 1907 to then British Prime Minister Henry Campbell-Bannerman, emphasizing the following:

“Establishing a strong alien human barrier in the land bridge linking Europe to the old world, and both to the Mediterranean, to form—in the region near the Suez Canal—a force hostile to the peoples of the region and friendly to European countries and their interests, is the practical and immediate implementation of the proposed methods and approaches.”

According to the alleged document, this means that “Western experts” see the establishment of an alien entity, namely the subsequent Israel, in the Eastern Mediterranean (especially in Palestine) a way to create a forward base to protect Western interests, weaken the region, and prevent its reunification. Several researchers argued that whether or not the document is fake, this is what has happened in reality.<<

----

You know, I remember that Napoleon lost at the Battle of Waterloo and Rothschild got the information first, started selling which caused a massive sell off and bought everything back at pennys on the pound.
Jews probably own the UK, the City of London is a corporation full of bankers.

Then the US congress is controlled by the Israel Lobby.
Anyone who doesn't support Israel gets 'primaried'.

Why do all democracies come down to support for Israel on the Conservative side, and support for Palestine on the Progressives side?
'Controlled Opposition'?

How Progressive Democrats Were Railroaded in the Primaries by AIPAC and Allied Groups
http://theintercept.com/2023/02/26/deconstructed-podcast-progressive-democrats-aipac/

The Squad Is Getting Primaried for Standing Against the War
http://theintercept.com/2023/11/03/deconstructed-israel-aipac-squad-primary/

WARNING - EXTREME SWEARING (Don't blame me if you click it)
http://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1724417919914758192

Fellas, at the end of the day its 100% someones son, someones daughter, someones child, mother father, sister, brother, or grandparent, someone loved by others, who now grieve for their loss, be it an Israeli or Palestinian. The fact we callously put a number on it, and argue about it, does truly disturb me. All war is futile, this war is futile. Lets hope for a ceasefire and a peaceful resolution to a worthless conflict, hurting so many innocent people on both sides.

Dear Critic,

«Jews probably own the UK, the City of London is a corporation full of bankers.»

Whether true or otherwise, many view the Jews this way - and this is just why certain Jews woke up one morning in the 19th century and said:

"F*?k it, we no longer want to be Jews - this stifling anti-Semitism without and the nagging Rabbis within, we don't accept that fate, we are young and free, we don't want to be bankers, we want to touch the earth, we want to be farmers, we want to be builders, we shall go back to our old land where we shall live together and build a beautiful new modern state together with our old brothers that never left - who cares what religion they now have".

These were the Zionists!

We are all different, and birds of a feather will always flock together?
So we have a multitude of different groupings in our society.
When any group embraces a set of 'principles' which sets them clearly apart, and which creates a distinct gap between them and the rest of society, conflict is almost inevitable.
It is interesting that such a grouping's 'principles' are rarely truthful.
They are in fact fiction: a story, often written script, which they follow in daily life.
They 'live' it wholeheartedly, and use it as an excuse to avoid compliance with general law.
They say they cannot do 'such and such', it is against their religion or principles.
The truth is they are trying to make their own rules.
And those rules often have little connection with reality.
They want to feel special and different?
They want to belong to a strong band of people which can stand alone, because they see that as protection for themselves?
And with such blatantly false 'principles', one wonders how they are permitted to, or manage to, keep going.
One also wonders: 'where is their ability to observe, and reach reasoned conclusions.'
They appear to have blinkers on, which results in a severely limited field of view for them.
Or perhaps they just don't care, provided they have a sense of safety?
Whatever the 'principles' they 'embrace', they must be truthful ones, and able to stand up to scrutiny.
Which is rarely the case.
So whenever you see conflict, you will almost certainly see false principles at work.
You don't need to look very hard.

I should have added:
Rarely does a conflict have one side which is absolutely right, and totally blameless.
So faulty principles are in play for both sides?
To espouse support for a particular side is to espouse support for faulty principles?
Not something one should be seen doing?

I watched ABC midday news, and they were talking about if Israel enters Gaza's al-Shifa hospital and finds there are no tunnel access to the hospital, the entire world will turn against Israel. I turned to Sky news, and it showed the IDF had entered the hospital and were removing babies in humidicribs into Israeli care and exploring tunnels linked to the hospital. This news was concurrent, yet ABC was 24 hours behind the facts.

Israeli authorities unfortunately have often
claimed that there are command bunkers and
more tunnels running under Gaza tunnels as a
justification for their targeting health fascilities
which are protected in war by international law.

Investigations have disproved Israel's claims of
Hamas tunnels under a Gaza hospital. The hatch Israel
claimed was a Hamas tunnel was only a water reservoir
for the hospital. And there's more information
available on the web.

The situation at Gaza's largest hospital - al-Shiva -
is horrendous. To call it grim - would be
an understatement:

http://thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023-11-13/al-shiva-hospital-gaza/

My apologies for the typo. Here's the link again:

http://thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023-11-13/al-shifa-hospital-gaza/

Read it and weep.

Last try:

http://thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2023/11/13/al-shifa-hospital-gaza/

These are war crimes.

Hi Yuyutsu,
"F*?k it, we no longer want to be Jews - this stifling anti-Semitism without and the nagging Rabbis within...
...These were the Zionists!"

Interesting, never had it spelled out for me like that before.

I think I've shared with you and others on the forum that I prefer 'ethics' over religion.
"Everybody has the right to live how they choose so long as they don't harm others"
I've shared that I don't really like any of this Messianic plans, nor do I want the world ruled by Islam, nor by Christians.
- Nor by these US warmongers with sanctions and overthrows.

I'm not against immigrants, but I'm against that rampant immigration
I want aussie kids to be able to grow up and own a home, which is becoming out of reach.
I believe that its immigrants job to assimilate into the country they're coming into
And not the existing populations job to assimilate into where they came from.

I don't have animosity towards people who have more money than me.
We live under capitalism.
If you work hard and save and make smart choices you reap the rewards.
If you sit back and do nothing and have little to show for it then thats your choice.
You get to choose how to live, but you have to live with those choices.

Despite how many times people call me Anti-Semitic, I don't hate Jews, and I certainly don't hold any animosity towards you.
I wouldn't want to send anyone to fight in wars for others.
I wouldn't want to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.
I just want a peaceful world where everyone gets along.

It's a shame that some people just cant get along, despite their differences.
I hope that both sides can enter negotiations, discussions, dialogue compromise.
I support peace over conflict.

Also I know I've posted a lot of things which might be considered 'Anti-Semitic'.
If I have ever offended you or any other Jewish reader then this was never my intention.

Hi Josephus,
"I watched ABC midday news, and they were talking about if Israel enters Gaza's al-Shifa hospital and finds there are no tunnel access to the hospital, the entire world will turn against Israel."

- Yes I heard that too.
What I found curious were reports of mass graves being dug.
I couldn't help wondering why dig mass graves if there are snipers and gunfire surrounding you, when the bodies could be buried within or moved through the (alleged) tunnels to a different location.
A heard it reported a day or so back (from people at the hospital) that Israeli snipers were shooting health workers in the hospital, but I don't know how true it is.

Hi AC,

"A total of 102 aid workers with the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) were killed and 27 others wounded in Gaza since Israel's war with Hamas began more than a month ago, the agency said.

1,400 Israelis were murdered by Hamas and Gazan Arabs.

Has this barbarism not been perpetrated, nobody in Gaza would have been killed, and they would have been perfectly safe today.

I am sick and tired of left lunatics and anti-Semites blubbering about what is happening in Gaza when it is entirely the fault of Hamas and the majority of Arabs who still support them.

Dear Foxy,

«The hatch Israel claimed was a Hamas tunnel was only a water reservoir for the hospital.»

We shall wait and see...
If I were in place of Israel, I would have also claimed that I found nothing, that it was only a water reservoir - why lose the surprise element by letting Hamas know that the entrance to their underground complex was exposed?

---

Dear Critic,

«Interesting, never had it spelled out for me like that before.»

Sadly, people today no longer remember how Zionism started and instead mistake that late-comer American-style Messianic madness to be "Zionism".

This must have been the combined success of the propaganda campaigns of both Netanyahu and Hamas.

«I think I've shared with you and others on the forum that I prefer 'ethics' over religion.»

Well if such primitive tribalism is mistakenly passed for religion then I share this sentiment. However, I don't consider Judaism, Christianity or Islam to automatically qualify as religions, unless people use them in that manner.

On the topic of immigration, since you mentioned it, please excuse me: I have my views, but not the time at the moment to divert to that whole new big topic.

«I support peace over conflict.»

Up to a point, yes, when a conflict is only about land and material goods.

But when a conflict is between good and uncompromising evil, one should still maintain inner peace, but at the same time do their duty and kill the perpetrators of evil.

This is the scene of the Bhagavad-Gita and in it Lord Krishna provides the perspective that one cannot kill the enemy anyway, only their temporal bodies, not the eternal indweller within these bodies.

«If I have ever offended you or any other Jewish reader then this was never my intention.»

You could not offended me - I am a Hindu.
People who identify as Jewish might have felt offended, but secular Israelis today tend to identify as Israelis, rather than as Jews.
Seeing the behaviour of extremist Messianic Jews, I think many of them Jewish-born have become anti-Semite too...

In the past two decades over 2,100 Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli military action, and 139 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinian militants in the same period. To claim; "Has this barbarism not been perpetrated, nobody in Gaza would have been killed, and they would have been perfectly safe today." is untrue. Oct 7th was a continuum of a bloody war, not its beginning.

It is not "untrue". Honest and realistic people know that there was a ceasefire until the Hamas started another war against Israel.

There is no stopping terror loving Jew-haters from twisting facts and truth to suit their diabolical anti-Semitic hatred and support for terrorism.

Good Morning Yuyutsu,

The water reservoir that was found in the hospital
was confirmed by various international health
authorities. As were other facts already mentioned.

It truly is heart-breaking that this conflict cannot
come to an end once and for all. Such a Holy land for
so many people - and so much blood-shed still being
spilt.

I am concerned of the divisions that are appearing in
our country as a result of this conflict. That is
something that we should try to avoid.

There's already enough horror happening. Showing empathy,
compassion, and comfort to those grieving and suffering
is something we can all try to do to reach understanding and
calm.

I am grateful for the posters on this forum,
who try to maintain balanced views. They're the ones who
give us hope - that there is a basis
for long term lasting peace between the Israeli
and Palestinian people - and that one day
soon this will come about.

An article in The Canberra Times quotes Jewish Members
of Parliament who tell us that Both Australian Jews and
Muslims should not be used as "political footballs."

That their communities should feel safe and supported.

And that all of us should be careful what words we use in
describing this conflict - not to add even more fuel to
the fire.

The comments came from Victorian MP Josh Burns and
NSW MP Julian Leeser.

This conflict has unleashed protests and vigils across
the country. Both MPs have made it clear that we should
not make inflammatory remarks which put "kerosene on
already hot flames."

"It doesn't matter whether you're a Jewish person or an
Islamic person - you should feel safe in Australia," Mr
Burns stated.

"We should want that for any Australian regardless of
their religion or background."

"A politician's job should be to cool tensions and host
civilised conversations that represent all of the
Australian people."

"I don't believe that it is in the Jewish Community's
interest to have one political party trying to put the
community against another because long after my career
is done I want the Jewish community to have stability
and certainty on all sides of politics."

That's why keeping calm, rational, and showing balance
is so important during these very difficult times.

Dear Foxy,

«The water reservoir that was found in the hospital
was confirmed by various international health
authorities. As were other facts already mentioned.»

Of course, but is that the ONLY hatch Israel found?
or did they say "look what we found",
waving that dead mouse by its tail as if they found something great
so that the enemy will think that they are morons and not come to know
what ELSE they found...

Much of what goes on in wars is below ground...

«Such a Holy land for so many people»

But tell me, is it truly Holy in your view?

«I am concerned of the divisions that are appearing in
our country as a result of this conflict.»
«It doesn't matter whether you're a Jewish person or an
Islamic person - you should feel safe in Australia»
«I don't believe that it is in the Jewish Community's
interest to have one political party trying to put the
community against another»

Yes, and to look at the roots, I think it was a mistake, in 1948, to define Israel as a Jewish state, as well as to continue supporting that myth: Jews around the world need not be affected by regional Israeli conflicts, nor does Israel need to suffer from the world's perennial anti-Semitism.

Israelis are Israelis and Jews are Jews, it seems that the linking between them was not helpful to either.

Jew-hatred around the Western world is old, deep-rooted and has nothing to do with Israel.
Similarly, Arab hatred of Israel is not because Israelis [mostly] happen to be Jews but because they brought progress to their backward conservative region.

Yuyutsu,

Israel has produced a video of its findings underground
and has been accused of fabricating evidence.

Pew Research tells us that:

Israeli Jews across the religious spectrum strongly
support the idea of Israel as a Jewish state and a
homeland for Jewish people. Overall majorities of
Jews say Israel was given to the Jewish people by
God and that a Jewish state is necessary for the
long-term survival of the Jewish people.

Nearly unanimously, Jews support the diaspora
population's right to move to Israel and receive
citizenship and most agree that Jews deserve
preferential treatment in Israel.

But Jews are divided when it comes to the status
of the country's Arab minority. Roughly half say
Arabs should be expelled or "transferred" from
Israel while the other half disagrees.

Jews believe that a Jewish state is necessary for
the survival of the Jewish people and a strong
majority believes that a strong Jewish diaspora is
vital for long-term survival.

As for anti-Semitism? My first encounter with it was
with the study of Shakespeare's play - "The Merchant
of Venice." On the whole though, I've been very
fortunate in that I grew up in a family that
encouraged inter-action with a wide mix of diverse
cultures. I was taught by my parents not to pay
much attention to stereotypes and myths that
target people, their religious practices and beliefs.

I was taught to accept people as individuals. And I
am grateful to my parents for that. Dinners around
our table were never boring. And to this day I
love learning about our differences.

You asked me if I thought it was Holy Land?
So many have died for it. So yes - I consider it
sacred to so many.

Dear Foxy,

You have an interesting concept of Holiness, so different from what is commonly understood by "the Holy land", usually based on the Bible or the Quran.

The link between Israel and the Jews has been Israel's official line, more so since 1977 when Israel's right wing came to power, but even before, since 1949, Israel accepted any Jew in distress, which became law in 1950. Before that, Israel [to be] was only interested in working-age secular Jews who were aligned with Zionist principles.

Israelis sympathise with and try to help any Jew in distress, especially due to anti-Semitism. Come to mind are Jews persecuted in Arab countries and the Soviet Union, who were absorbed into and added their unique flavours to Israeli society. I commend Israel's compassion in this matter (but wish it could be extended to non-Jews as well).

Yet American Jews are not in distress and were never persecuted as Jews. For whatever mushrooms grow in America, affecting Jews and non-Jews alike, many among them are loud extroverts who believe that Jews are superior and come to Israel only in order to advance and fulfil their Messianic expansionist fantasies. They bring Israel to shame, but Israel cannot help it so long as it automatically allows any Jew to come.

While Israeli Zionists are familiar with being hated by Arabs, they always believed themselves to be finally immune from classical Western anti-Semitism by virtue of leading a normal life on their own land. It was believed that Israelis would never be led like sheep to the slaughter and until October 7th, the holocaust was considered by them as "something that happened to the Jews over there, not to us", thus the huge shock.

[continued...]

[...continued]

Now apart from the shame, the actions started by some American Jews also imported classical anti-Semitism to Israel's doorstep. At the same time, it also exported the Arab new anti-Semitic style to worldwide Jewry, now causing Jews to live in fear. Arab anti-Semitism is quite different from the Western/Christian-based brand, as it originated in Arabs being afraid of Zionism bringing social progress to their region which could break apart their patriarchal traditions and liberate their women.

Just like Israelis have no reason to suffer from classical anti-Semitism, world Jews have no reason to suffer from Arab-style anti-Semitism - thus I raised the question: was this exercise of matching Israel with the Jews worthwhile on balance, or was it a mistake?

Israel deserves to live as a normal country, not just as "the solution for the Jewish problem".
When people think of Japan for example, say when Japan had its horrific earthquake and Fukushima Tsunami, "Shinto" rarely comes to people's minds, it is just not relevant for people to say "oh look what a disaster happened to the Shintos" - then why is it that whatever happens in Israel, good or bad, people immediately refer to "the Jews"?
That is an unhealthy attitude and state of affairs.

Israelis have a life besides that dry incidental fact that most of them were born Jewish - if you like to understand how they now feel about the world's attention, just imagine how you would feel for example if the media reported, "a pile of books fell on a Catholic librarian"...

Yuyutsu,

I don't see myself as a Catholic librarian.

There's more dimensions to me - and besides
my persona changes depending on my mood (smile).

I've found this to also be true with quite many
people.

I don't like pigeon holes. Or putting people into
them. Or assigning labels.

We should be treated as individuals. Not as stereotypes.

Yuyutsu,

Talking about religion?

Here's a few light-hearted jokes:

Need an ark?

I Noah a guy.
_______________________________________________________________________
If Mary gave birth to Jesus
And Jesus is the Lamb of God
Did Mary actually have a little lamb?
____________________________________________________________________
The fact that there's a highway to hell
and only a stairway to heaven
says a great deal about anticipated traffic numbers.
_________________________________________________________________

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for the jokes!!

Just as you do not see yourself as a "Catholic Librarian",
and exactly as you said, there are so many more dimensions to you,
Israelis too do not like being reminded day in and night out that they are also Jewish.
In fact, not all of them even are.
In fact, even among those who are, many do not take it seriously.

"Jews" in Israel, often has the connotation of passive victims, sheep to the slaughter, who only expect God to help them and therefore fail to help themselves.

___________________________________________________________________________

An American, a Frenchman and an Israeli were caught in the African jungle by a cannibal tribe.

"Before we eat you", said the cannibals, "we have a custom of allowing you a last wish".

- "I like to eat a big steak", said the American.
His wish was granted.

- "I like my frog pie and a bit of time with this beautiful woman over there", said the French.
His wishes were granted.

- "I like you to take out a big stick and beat me on my backside", said the Israeli.

"How strange, we never got any such request before, are you very sure that this is what you want?", asked the cannibals.
- "Absolutely sure", said the Israeli.

So they took out a big stick and started beating him.

Then the Israeli revealed a hidden Uzi gun and shot down the cannibals.

Confused, the American and the Frenchman asked, "If you had that Uzi all along, why did you wait till now?"

"So that nobody can accuse me of being the aggressor", replied the Israeli.

Yuyutsu,

The love of my life was an Israeli.

Jewish people have been part of my life for as
long as I can remember.

Thank you for the joke. Humour has always been part
of the Jewish psyche. There's so many classics.

Three Jewish mothers are sitting on a park bench arguing
which one's son loves her the most.

The first one say - "You know, my son sends me flowers every
Shabbos."

"You call that love? " says the second mother.
"My son calls me every day!"

"That's nothing," says the third woman.

"My son is in therapy five days a week. And the whole time he talks about me.

Ursula von der leyen
http://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1726174816833519741

"We condemn the unacceptable violence by extremists in the West Bank.
We agree that the cycle of violence needs to be broken.
A two-state solution is the only way to achieve peace."

Dear Critic,

I am utterly horrified and disgusted by the actions of these Jewish extremists in the West Bank. I have no better words to describe them - they are Nazis as they treat the local Arabs exactly as the Nazi Germans treated the Jews, they are Israel's worst enemies and deserve to be handed to their friends from the Hamas for a "special treatment".

That American filth does not represent Israel, and certainly not my family there: they are not true Israelis nor true Zionists, but bring undeserved shame on both Israel and Zionism.

As their representatives in the Knesset presently push for a law to allow the death penalty for terrorists, they are the first to whom that law must apply, then have their bodies cut to pieces and sent back to Brooklyn where they came from!

In contrast, see who are Israel's most loyal citizens:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12699879/The-killing-machines-Hamas-seen-wife-Muslim-shot-20-times-RICHARD-PENDLEBURY-speaks-families-killed-taken-hostage-terror-group-Israel.html

Hi Yuyutsu,
I missed this comment and story.
Thanks for sharing.

This is for ttbn
CTIL Files #1: US And UK Military Contractors Created Sweeping Plan For Global Censorship In 2018, New Documents Show
http://public.substack.com/p/ctil-files-1-us-and-uk-military-contractors

I'd believe it.
I remember vaguely, at the end of the Obama presidency Obama gave a whole heap of money to fight disinformation or something.