Anticeptic >"If it turns out that her decision is forced, I'll be very sad for her, but it wouldn't be a surprise."

Let me get this clear here---are you saying that if a woman or girl is 'forced'(ie raped) then it will be her fault because she was flirting?
What a terribly old-fashioned and sad way of thinking about women and men's behaviour towards each other.

You need to do a bit of reading up on rapes and sexual assaults.
These crimes are mostly about control, anger and revenge on the part of the criminals that commit them.Sex is secondary in these situations.
For most men I have no doubt that no amount of flirting or prick-teasing will result in them violently forcing the woman to have sex with them.
All women and all men have been known to flirt with others at some times in their lives, but this has not resulted in mass rapes and sexual assaults has it?

Great article Nina.

Shadow Minister, it's amazing isn't it, how it's possible that a people with such wonderful beaches can be so uptight and prudish!

I was educated in the 60's and 70's. Fortunately not with any Antiseptics.

Sexual 'ethics' and what 'having sex' could mean was the most interesting part. We even had pictures of 'different' postions. Did that open up debate, after some intial uncomfortable sniggering! The bit about STD's etc we already knew. Where I grew up single sex schools was a rarity, so sessions were in mixed classes. It was very illuminating hearing from others, your own gender and the other (we're only speaking of heterosexual sex here in those days).

An important message that we got was that sex was not about your getting your own rocks off, but that it is a shared experience. Focussing on your own needs only is served with masturbation. A perfectly legitimate option.

Antiseptic, a sexual encounter is not limited to a penis penetrating a vagina. Unfortunately there are both boys/men and girl/women who think that is the sum total of sex. Flirting, petting and all the rest of it is the really interesting part

suzeonline:"Let me get this clear here---are you saying that if a woman or girl is 'forced'(ie raped) then it will be her fault because she was flirting?"

Are you really incapable of reading, dear? How sad for you.

As I said, it's "contributory negligence" in my view if a girl leads a boy on and then tries to back out when it's too late.

Is it your view that a woman or girl has no influence on the outcome of such encounters?

suzeonline:"For most men I have no doubt that no amount of flirting or prick-teasing will result in them violently forcing the woman to have sex with them."

We're not talking about men in the context, we're talking about teenaged boys. If she leads one on and then tries to back out, there's a fair chance she'll be able to claim rape, but it won't be really a rape, it'll be prick-teasing gone wrong and they'll both bear some blame for that.

Why do you expect a teenaged boy to be more in control of himself than my teenaged daughter is? On what grounds do you think she is not as responsible for her behaviour as he is for his? Perhaps you were just one of the girls the boys weren't interested in, regardless of availability...

Suzeonline:"These crimes are mostly about control, anger and revenge on the part of the criminals that commit them"

Undoubtedly some are, but not all. The word "rape" is attached to all sorts of relatively benign encounters as well as the violent assaults. I share the disgust at such violence, but I do not condone the broadening of definitions, which is largely about giving a few victim-riders a larger pool of "victims" to make a living out of. Good business sense to expand the market, perhaps, but hardly conducive to informing good social policy..

Antiseptic, if you have sons, I hope you make them aware of the fact that it is actually not necessary to use a vagina in order to ejaculate...if...and this is a big IF...you are a male who gets so unbearably aroused by a girl you MUST ejaculate. They won't go blind, grow hair on their palms or have to confess to any sins. They won't even have to wait to 'accidentally do it' by having a wet dream. Can you tell I have boys? ;)

There is absolutely never ever, ever an excuse to physically invade somebody else space if it is not wanted. Regardless of the amount of 'prick-teasing'-a disgusting term, whatever that means.

Flirting between people, an art pretty well non-existent in this country, is one of the fun parts of male-female interactions. It is truly sad that there are so many Antiseptics who merely see this as prick teasing and an automatic invitation, nay RIGHT, to ejaculate into somebody's vagina, only prefentable by some superhuman, unfair effort on the part of a male.

As Nina pointed out, sexual ethics is necessary. Many adults could benefit as well.

Many people have written posts in defence of those who flirt. Flirting can be seen as suggesting that you are offering more than you really are. Heavy flirting is a type of dishonesty and as such, is unethical. Nina won’t accept this, but more is communicated by flirting than by actual talk. Surely women don’t want men asking “do you want to have sex? Are you sure?” like we cannot take a hint.

I would also add that it is not just enough to condemn dishonesty, if we are serious about dishonesty, we will be careful never to reward it. Therefore, men need to be careful about doing favours for women who flirt. Women need to be more than suspicious of men who claim to love them (has any lie been told more often?). Both genders need to respect others who tell the truth.

I notice this quote in the article:

"Even more concerning, the study also reported that one in three year 10 girls had been pressured, forced or coerced into unwanted sex. Legally, this meets the definition of sexual assault."

I have a problem with this statement. Firstly I agree that no-one should be forced (which implies physical violence) or coercion, which implies blackmail or threat, the idea of pressure being part of sexual assault puzzles me.

There are many pressures in our lives, pressures to work, to do things that we don't want to do - I know that there are certain household duties that I need to carry out for my wife to be happy: that is I am pressured into doing them. When my wife wants me to go shopping with her if I want to have a reasonable day or two afterwards I go with her: that is, I submit to her pressure: but it is a choice.

A young woman who is 'pressured' (not forced or coerced) into sexual activity is exercising a choice: that is if she doesn't 'give in' then there will be a consequence that she may consider negative: but she has a choice. She has to make a judgement. Perhaps girls should be taught to value their sexuality and bodies more highly, so that they can exercise better judgement.

And maybe young men should be chemically castrated until they turn 21 or so, just to keep feminists happy.