This is all pointing to the desperate need for adequate sex education.

This should be a regular part of the curriculum from Kindi (awareness) to the end of high school, and should include all aspects from anatomy, contraception, relationships and etiquette.

The alternative is the handful of ignorant inexperienced men and women can spoil the perceptions for everyone else.

pelican,

'Why is it that so many men posting have such a bleak view of women?'

I don't. But I'm happy with my partner and never been through the family court system. Seeing the state of some of these guys I'm doubly determined to make it stay that way.

Also I maintain Fraccy and pynchme have an extremely bleak view of men.

'The level of martyrdom is disturbing.'

It's not the male posters who constantly come up with 'I'm being victimised because I dare to have an opinion while being female' or that Graham Y has it in for them.

'You are very intent on looking through rose coloured glasses at your own gender and very scathing of the other.'

Hmmm. What was I just saying...

Anansi,

'Some pathetic personal attacks happening here.'
Where?

Oh, you mean

'No wonder you fail at, or are miserable in, your relationships with women. Then I have to wonder at the calibre of woman who would bother with you to begin with.'

or

'fellows here who endorse rape promoting notions; they are despicable'

They're the only personal attacks I can find.

Well this article has certainly raised some interesting points and the responses highlight how much work needs to be done about personal responsibility, ethics and legal obligations.

Houlley, I don’t think I am deluding myself, that most of the female posters do try and see things from the male viewpoint. I rarely see the same from some of the usual suspects but maybe we never will and maybe it is best to bow out earlier when these gender issues go around in the same old circles.

I will never believe that a rape victim (or any victim of crime) is any way responsible for the acts of the perpetrator. The responsibility always lies with the criminal. What does all this mean? Will we end up in a world so bland and stifled in our behaviour as to be robots not allowed to smile at a man in case he might rape me, or even look at a man as in some countries where no similar responsibility lies for the male.

I cannot fathom how human beings can still think in certain ways. It is a constant mystery but maybe I have to come to terms with ‘what is’ rather than what should be.

Doug, I understand your meaning. It is important with our own children that they understand, without instilling fear, that not all people think the same and draw attention to potentially risky or unsafe behaviours in particular environments.

Like Houlley, I have never been through the Family Court System nor would I wish given negative and bitter attitudes it rouses in some men and women.

Perhaps in these sex lessons there should be something about marriage and the importance of commitment, give and take, obligations to children that override self-interest. Not sure if you can teach those values in any meaningful way. It will always come down to individual responsibility and values

Pelican:"I will never believe that a rape victim (or any victim of crime) is any way responsible for the acts of the perpetrator. "

No one has suggested that they are, merely that they need to be careful not to put themselves into a situation in which they are reliant on someone else's self-control if they don't want to risk the consequences.

My daughter is enjoying herself getting the boys' attention at the moment, with no intent to do anything more. Many if not most girls of her age do the same, meaning teenage boys spend a large part of their time in extreme sexual tension. If some of them can't control themselves when a seeming opportunity arises, it's hardly surprising.

If Nina's sexual ethics class was to make an effort to teach girls to be less ambiguous in their sexual signalling, I suspect it would yield surprisingly large results in terms of reducing sexual assaults, especially among young people.

'Houlley, I don’t think I am deluding myself, that most of the female posters do try and see things from the male viewpoint. '

I think you are. Just look at how any guy who so much as mentions any measure a girl can take to protect herself, is pillared. The likes of pynchme hear guys say that they don't remove responsibility from the rapist, but think it's wise to advise women how they can protect themselves, and they get...

'wishy washy fellows here who endorse rape promoting notions; they are despicable'

You, on the other hand replied with this...

'I do agree with some of your comments that we do need to include some safety information or risky behaviours in those lessons that Nina proposes. But that is not the same as allotting blame to the victim.'

Which is exactly what a lot of the male posters are saying.

See, just because you aren't attempting to pursue an agenda to stop any discussion of educating girls along with boys about sexual ethics, doesn't mean the other female posters aren't. And notice that pynchme wasn't upset about that comment from you because you're a chick, but all the male posters are 'wishy washy fellows here who endorse rape promoting notions; they are despicable'

It IS possible to DARE to talk about female sexual ethics, responsibility and protection from harm WITHOUT blaming victims of rape. Pynchme's type wouldn't even accept a disclaimer of 'this doesn't lessen the responsibility of rapists, or attribute any blame to the victim when rape occurs' in every post. They're just looking to label anyone who dares speak outside feminist orthodoxy as promoting rape.

anti,

'No one has suggested that they are'
Give up mate. It doesn't matter what you say, consider yourself a rape promoter. Maybe even a rapist.

Houlley
Perhaps we all see things through rose coloured glasses at times and I probably no different at times. At times I suspect miscommuications might come down to semantics.

I got the impression some posters were arguing that the victim has to take responsibility (albeit small) for partaking in possible risky behaviours should they be attacked or raped. Whereas I perceive 'responsibility' as akin to blaming language which I just cannot agree. I suspect, but cannot speak for pynchme, it may be the same interpretation.