ROBERT. I never said we should attack all feminists.As i stated many have done a great deal of good for furthering womens rights and i have no argument with them. However many of the modern day radical feminists are more interested in stripping men/fathers of their rights and it is those that i feel we should fight as what they have done to date with their social engineering agendas has in many ways led to the breakdown of the traditional family unit which has served mankind well for thousands of years and the ones to suffer in so many cases are our children.

eyeinthesky, perhaps I took "however modern day feminists are not as interested in furthering womens rights, as they are in stripping men/fathers of theirs and we need to fight them at every opportunity."

I do appreciate that you have acknowledge the important role feminism has played but in a post supporting one by Formersnag where he claims " feminism however has not 1 single article of its faith which is even slightly true as we have just been discussing, every single word of it from day 1 has been total lies."

I get the bit that many of the intepretations of social history, power balances etc depend on the starting point of view but I think the types of attacks Formersnag and others make on feminism really hinder our ability to discuss legitimate concerns with moderates. For right or wrong that type of stuff shows more brightly on the radar than ChazP and bobtwat's attacks on mens groups (and those fathers who are or have been part of them).

R0bert

ROBERT regarding attacks on feminism by formersnag etc. I would venture to suggest that the only reason they shine out more brightly on the radar. is that to a great extent the media is dominated by feminist journalists like caroline overington and barbara biggs {to name just 2}who unfairly use their positions to put a feminist point of view. In addition to this most of our universities which produce many of our social workers, psychologists etc are also feminist controlled, when you add this to the current government which almost totally panders to the feminist lobby it's surely no surprise that such attacks shine out more brightly on the radar as you put it, not because they are any more numerous or vitriolic than the rants by the likes of chaz p or bobtwat but purely because they are highlighted more and always recieve more prominence. It's the same in almost anything. You have only to recall the coverage of the story of darcy freeman who threw his child off the westgate bridge. Look at the coverage that got in the media just because it was a father who was the perpetrator, yet only 6 months previously a mother jumped with her child off the same bridge killing the child and the incident recieved only a fraction of the coverage.I'm sorry but i can make no apologies for saying that we must fight this blatant anti man/father bias and discrimination whenever and wherever it occurs.

1. How does one differentiate between moderate and radical feminists?

2. It's not surprising that more women are responsible for neglect since about 75% of child care is undertaken by women.

3. Of deaths of children, women are more likely to be responsible for the deaths of children under one year and men responsible for the deaths of older children. Again, women do most of the child rearing.

4. The greatest amount of killing of children by men is in the context of relationship breakdown, in spite and revenge - often making good on threats that brought about the relationship breakdown in the first place.

5. Is it preferable that women and children just shut the hell up and let men beat, rape and kill them? If feminists in the 1970s hadn't raised opposition to family violence, who would have?

6. In my main job, my main client group is 50-60% male. Of those, a conservative 50% to a more realistic 75% have experienced child sexual abuse. Of all of those cases over a number of years, only one involved a female perpetrator.

7. It isn't feminists who are the enemy of all fathers, it's men, including some fathers, who abuse and sometimes kill people who thought they could trust them.

8. Feminism is concerned with patterns of power and control in society and systems and cultural beliefs that support patterns of power and control that do harm to women and children (both male and female).

9. Many feminists, like myself, are devoted to loving spouses and children. Many good men stand up and distance themselves from those who do bad things.

10. Your enemy is not women, nor feminists, it's the men amongst you whose behaviour, rather than being condemned by you, is minimized, excused and blamed on others. Simply launching an anti feminism campaign will not stop such men from hurting others.

11. If feminism disappeared tomorrow, what would you propose to do to stop family violence?

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/6/6/0/%7B66025EB4-DC26-4B37-803B-BCC1EA184951%7Dti53.pdf

Excellent post Pynchme.

Fact: there are violent women and men, men tend to express their rage physically, women by neglect and rejection - generalisations of course but they are issues with which we must acknowledge instead of this pointless exercise in blame.

F-snag appears to be yet another unfortunate who had his world upset by a member of the opposite sex and therefore blames all women who dare to hold any opinion contrary to his own.

Pynchme your point; that the major cause of violence and subjugation of men is other men, is routinely ignored. I have pointed this out in the past and will try again:

"Types-of-perpetrators

Most men (89% or 430,000) who had been physically assaulted said that the perpetrator was a man. A smaller proportion (16% or 79,500) of men were physically assaulted by a woman. Almost half (48%) of the men physically assaulted by a man said that there was more than one person involved in the incident. In contrast, 90% of men physically assaulted by a woman said there was only one person involved.

Of women who experienced physical assault, 81% (195,000) said that the perpetrator was a man, with 27% (66,500) reporting that the perpetrator was a woman. The majority (93%) of women physically assaulted by a man reported that there was only one person involved in the incident, as did 79% of those physically assaulted by a woman.

Relationship-to-perpetrator

Around two-thirds (66%) of men physically assaulted during the last 12 months said that the perpetrator was a stranger (table S13.3). In contrast, women were less likely to be physically assaulted by a stranger (22%) than by someone they knew (82%). Almost a third (31%) of women physically assaulted said that the perpetrator was a current or previous partner, and 37% reported their attacker as being a family member or friend."

This is significant:

"Significantly more men (68%) than women (52%) who were physically assaulted by a male perpetrator during the 12 months prior to interview in the survey, reported that they did not consider this violence to be a crime."

IN my post above I made the final point that many men don't even acknowledge assault on them by another male as a crime. This would fit in with the fact that even though the bulk of powerful positions through-out the world are held by men this is not acknowledged by some men as being as oppressive to them as it is to women.

The focus by men such as F-snag is that any inroads into power made by women is perceived as a greater threat, than the status quo. Again if violence is perpetrated by a woman it is considered a greater problem than the fact that the majority of violence both in the home and outside is committed by men.

Bringing the perception that embittered men have of women to a local level, if a woman proffers her opinion on sites such as OLO she is derided as a "feminazi" etc and claims are made that women have "infiltrated (sic) all key areas of our government, media and society" as made by F-snag on Friday, 24 July 2009 10:35:40 AM.

This perception that "women have taken over" is used again and again in the blame game - never do the people making these claims ever stop to consider that those who control politics and big business - the majority of whom are men, have a vested interest in maintaining the current power structures. Far easier to blame "feminists" for all their woes.