Trav

You claimed that because Jesus' corpse went missing, that proved he reanimated:

"For me personally, I've never actually heard anyone give any other plausible explanation for the established historical events of the empty tomb and the disciples belief in post mortem appearances of Jesus."

Your logic is questionable at best and completely wrong at worst.

The most rational conclusion anyone can make is that Jesus' body was removed by persons unknown.

As for your last post, all I can say for it is that it is an excellent example of deliberate obfuscation, nonsense and evasion.

I do not believe in resurrections because there is no evidence it can happen. However, I do believe that humans are capable of removing a corpse from whence it was laid to rest.

As for the claims that disciples saw him walking about after the event of his death. Not one of the claims were made by persons present at that time, but were rather an addition made 50 years later in order to convince that Jesus was more than human, or less than human, or not even human at all depending on how you want to look at the entire father, son and holy spirit triad.

I stand by the fact that the most likely explanation (that JC was removed from the tomb by living humans) is the correct explanation. You cannot prove otherwise. You can believe in resurrections and easter bunnies for all I care, but you cannot attempt to force your beliefs on others as you are attempting to do here.

Fractelle, before I carry on I'll just mention that I won't be replying to you anymore if you continue making unsubstantiated personal claims such as this:

"you cannot attempt to force your beliefs on others as you are attempting to do here".

That comment was a red flag for me, because no reasonable person could possibly even come near to drawing the conclusion that I've been forcing anything on anyone here. The mere fact that you've suggested it is almost enough evidence to make me ignore your postings and use my valuable time in another way. Please, no more comments like that- they don't help you, me, or this discussion.

Now,back to our discussion. Your closing comment was this:

"I stand by the fact that the most likely explanation (that JC was removed from the tomb by living humans) is the correct explanation. You cannot prove otherwise"

Correct, I cannot prove anything and neither can you, we can only go by the balance of probabilities.

The tomb had a centurion guard in front of it, which was consistent with practices of the time. How likely is it that someone would be able to remove the body, in those circumstances? Not very likely at all.

Secondly, I claimed that "I've never actually heard anyone give any other plausible explanation for the established historical events of the empty tomb and the disciples belief in post mortem appearances of Jesus." As I said before, you've only attempted to explain the empty tomb, and you haven't attempted any explanation for the post mortem appearances. Therefore at this stage, you haven't actually put forward a full explanation at all.

Trav

You say the tomb had a guard and this was “consistent with practices of the time”. What evidence do you have for this? It seems to me highly unlikely that Romans would bother guarding dead people. Only Matthew’s gospel mentions guards, and many scholars assume this was added by the author to answer later critics making the same accusation as Fractelle – namely, that the body was stolen.

You say that both resurrection and the stolen body are theories that cannot be proven but must be resolved on the basis of probabilities. I agree, but Fracetelle’s challenge remains. Which is more probable – that a corpse came back to life, or that the body was removed by humans? Or any of the other non-miraculous theories (the body never left the tomb, they went to the wrong tomb, Jesus never actually died…)

The post-resurrection appearances are similarly problematic. As Peter Sellick’s article discusses today, there is a strangeness about the post-resurrection accounts. At the very least, these were no simple encounters with an ordinary person. The subjective, non-historical explanation is to my mind more plausible than literal encounters with a resuscitated corpse.

trav, it is hardly fractelle's burden to "put forward a full explanation" of 2000 year old heresay reports of an extremely unlikely event.

the real question is, why are you so willing to believe? why do you care so much?

Trav

You are demanding I believe your beliefs - that Jesus was resurrected due to divine powers and that this proves Christianity. If this is not prosetylising, I don't know what is.

You are basically saying I should not express an opinion that you take offense at. Please note that this is a forum, not your home, and I am free to present a rational explanation for the disappearance of a corpse from a tomb.

Therefore, if Jesus did exist and was crucified and his body placed in a tomb, then the body disappeared, someone had to have removed it.

Or Jesus was a zombie.

Cheers

Rhian,
You speak of the post-resurrection accounts as not being simple encounters with an ordinary person. This is true. No Christian believes Jesus to be an ordinary person.

Also, I’m not sure why we are discussing a resuscitated corpse. Christians believe that Jesus body was resurrected. This is a bit different from resuscitated. Christians believe Jesus overcame death once and for all. Not a revival or reheat of an unhealthy or expired body, but a total remodelling; an insight into the new world to come. Jesus' body was raised to a state of immortality.