Opinionated, I've come to the conclusion that you're not interested in a rational discussion, and that you're simply here to argue and not much else. If that conclusion of mine is incorrect then I sincerely apologise, however that seems the most rational conclusion based on comments like the below:

"Are you putting yourself on the same level as Jesus? I don't think he gave Christians the right to call people names! Sorry! That goes against his teachings!"

If you would like to engage in normal discussion without making ridiculous and illogical comments like that, then you'll need to show that to be the case, and show it well, before I continue replying to you.

TR, Yes indeed. If someone doesn't believe in the possibility of miracles, and more specifically the resurrection of Jesus, then they cannot call themselves a Christian. That's quite simply a non negotiable belief of the Christian faith. Any historical Christian faith that there is. Catholic, protestant, whatever. Look at the apostles creed, the nicene creed, any other historical declaration of Christianity and you will see that the resurrection is, well, kind of crucial.

If you consider the resurrection to be ridiculous then don't believe it. For me personally, I've never actually heard anyone give any other plausible explanation for the established historical events of the empty tomb and the disciples belief in post mortem appearances of Jesus. So I have no reason to disbelieve the resurrection accounts. They are multiply and independently attested, by early eyewitnesses. Using historical enquiry, the events surrounding the resurrection stand up to skepticism, so I see no reason to disbelieve the explanation which makes the most sense of those events and has easily the most explanatory power

Trav

Occam's Razor - 'The simplest explanation is the most likely'

Scenario 1. The body of Jesus was removed by persons unknown.

Scenario 2. Jesus reanimated and went for a stroll.

Which do you think is most likely?

Miracles are defined in Noah Webster’s BIG dictionary, as something wonderful. Something which seems to go beyond the known laws of nature; And is held to be the act of a supernatural being.

In the lead up to the Federal election in 2007, both JH and KR went on youtube, asking for a miracle. KR wanted his miracle, and got a change in the constitution of the Parliament of the Commonwealth representing 46 new members either kicked out or elected in. JH asked for the same miracle, on the same night, when they both were piped by closed circuit television, into packed churches throughout Australia where about 200,000 people and Almighty God took the broadcast.

In the lead up to the 2004 election only JH was entitled to ask for a miracle, as Mark Latham was an atheist, and atheists don’t believe in them. JH got his miracle on that occasion as fourteen percentage points in the polls left Labor and went to the coalition. That same fourteen percent stayed with KR, but he had to work for it.

In December 2004, KR started to work for his miracle. He had been a Christian for about ten years then. Brought up Roman Catholic he started attending the Anglican Church, and believing in miracles. Miracles don’t just happen, you have to ask for them. On the 7th August 2006, KR was at a National Christian Heritage Conference, in Canberra and made his first pitch for the Christian vote, and his miracle. It is here: http://www.australiaschristianheritageforum.org.au/Resources/KevinRuddspaper.pdf

We need a miracle in New South Wales. It will be a miracle and the answer to a lot of prayers, if KR fixes up the Federal Court and it follows Labor legislation, and starts to fulfil its role as a Christian court, so that when a person prays in it, he can have his miracle.

New South Wales needs a miracle to survive. Everything associated with it is either broken down, tainted with corruption, riven by rorts, or simply malfunctioning since atheist government was introduced in 1970. Pray for your miracle, folks, KR can deliver.

Sorry Trav if you're annoyed with the question "Are you putting yourself on the same level as Jesus?" but it was in response to your comment <<Not at all. Jesus labelled plenty of people>>

I took it from your response and what you typed about my posts on another thread http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8753&page=0#139231 that you were justifying your use of name calling and inappropriate insulting comments, as similar to Jesus.

I just don't think this stuff from a Christian presents your Lord Jesus and his teachings in a very good light.

If that offends...I'm sorry, but I have witnessed the Christian labelling of people here often. I believe it is unChristian.

It seems that many Christians, including GrahamY, can't make a very strong case when I quote Bible passages in context.

I would have thought that all Christian's should be able to debate/discuss the Bible far better than they apparently can.

I concerns me when people call themselves Christian but act in an unChristian way.

If a Christian is a person who believes and follows the teachings of their Christ Jesus, then they should, at the very least, follow his explicit instructions.

The fact that I, a questioning spiritual person, and many atheists, seem to know their Bibles better than Christians, doesn't say much for the teachings imparted by the supposed Christian organisations.

If the Christian method of debating the Bible is to take their cricket bat and ball and go home it doesn't say much for Christian Scholarship.

I ask tough questions BUT so did Jesus when he was attacked by the Pharisees.

Is it that Christians just want to believe, and the correct use of Jesus' teachings aren't as important as the belief?

But back to this thread...to an outsider it seems that all the prayers said around the world just aren't being answered, miracles aren't occurring and so Jesus' alleged words in

Matthew 17:20 "...If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and NOTHING shall be impossible unto you."

seem highly suspect.

Opinionated2<<But you failed to answer"Why doesn't he grow amputees legs back"?>>why should he[heard of karma?,...why should god make grow back things man's will removed, besides in time man kind will be able to do, such things via science..[i note your not attacking science for not being able to do it...lol,..

where is the need to be CARFULL IF GOD JUST GROWS BACK any-dumb thing people cut off...who's will said god grows back limbs,..It in no way undermines what he allegedly said here...

<<..If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed,ye shall say unto this mountain,Remove hence to yonder place;and it shall remove;and NOTHING shall be impossible unto you.">>..jesus is jesus just as remberant is rembrant..[or shakespear shakespear[or einstein enstein],..they are all unique..[just as you are unique]

[just as we ALL got our strengths and weakness[skills and talents[some use theirs to help others..[others use theirs to destroy..like you love to destroy others little faith..[a huge sin]taking the little faith some have.

<<All I ask is for Christians to show that they have the"faith of a mustard seed"...>>>MATE YOUR GREAT AT PRETENDING WISDOM you likely recall from other debates..[i doudt you ever bothered reading the whole book,besides musted seed has no faith..[its a unit measure,as to how little faith it would[or could take]..if fools like you didnt destroy it as soon as it appears,...you creatures do your vile well?

yet clearly enjoy rubbing the same points,into your brothers faces.

it is so easy claiming your clever critiques..[but what else are you capable of doing..[appart from destroying the weak faith of others..[you ever build up faith?,..or just get off on destroying others?

<<Jesus said it...not me!>>..mate you use his name,his words to desroy;to insult his flock,..what you got nothing better to do that attack others beliefs?

Stormbay,
You ask to see the statistics and then you provide your own. You say 280000 attend AFL matches each week. I’m not sure of what the latest figures are for Pentecostal churches but it would be something in this order.

However, it is not really a game of one-up-man-ship. Churches are not actually competing against football or any other sporting code. Some Christians love footy. My only point was that many parts of the Christian church are flourishing and belief overall is not in decline as Dye alleges.

Sometimes strength should be measured in growth indicators, the ages of participants, or other indicators, rather than flat numbers.

When I say that the church in Australia is strong, I say this only in comparison to other decades. In reality, the church is a long, long way from achieving its goals in this country. The enemy we battle is not footy, but rather injustice, deception, lack of knowledge, superstition, and unbelief.