That's potentially dangerous stuff, Dan.

>>Christians believe Jesus overcame death once and for all. Not a revival or reheat of an unhealthy or expired body, but a total remodelling; an insight into the new world to come. Jesus' body was raised to a state of immortality.<<

If you move the resurrection story too far from our reality, you devalue what - I assume - is the central purpose of the Jesus narrative.

It puts the entire "died for our sins" bit into a different light completely, if the entire process was just an exercise in remodelling.

I can see your dilemma, though. Keep it too close to our own human experiences, and you lose crdibility. Move it too far into the realms of "it's magic, just have faith", and the humanity that you need to attach to Jesus himsef, begins to look increasingly suspect

"No Christian believes Jesus to be an ordinary person."

"Christians believe Jesus overcame death once and for all. "

so, i guess my christian friends aren't really christians. thanks, dan. i'll let 'em know.

Bushbasher,
I would encourage you to chat to your Christian friends about theology. However, they might be curious about your motivation. They may wonder why you care so much.

Pericles,
I would say that the Gospel is potentially pretty dangerous stuff. At least, the Romans thought so. They had its adherence listed as a criminal offence for its first few hundred years.

I can appreciate the sentiments of your post. The appeal of Jesus’ character does partly lie in the ordinary human side of his life, such as his being born into a poor family, into a minority ethnicity, and facing similar hardships, temptations, and limitations as other men, etc.

However, we cannot get away from Jesus being anything but ordinary in other ways. Standard Christian teaching within the Gospels explains that he claimed a unique relationship with God. Many of those who were close to him recognised this from his words and his deeds. This includes the core of Christian teaching, that Jesus’ main task was to die in Jerusalem, and in so doing, in ways we don’t fully comprehend, he was “making all things new” (to quote a line from the movie The Passion of Christ).

There is a miraculous component to the Gospel. There is no such thing as a ‘miracle free’ Christian God. It was he who created the world. Raising Jesus from the dead is not an enormous miracle to perform or accept in comparison to that of creating the world. Recreating (I used the term remodelling) of the world is also part and parcel of the rest of the story, its hope and fulfilment.

rhian, the other problem with the emptied tomb idea is that it's implausible that anyone would've done it.

A. If the disciples did it, why on earth would they then proceed to make up a resurrection myth and get themselved tortured and martyred over it?

B. If anyone opposing Jesus did it, then why didn't they produce the body as soon as Jesus followers started announcing the resurrection?

So either way, that scenario is highly implausible. Which, of course, is why not many historians take it very seriously.

Fractelle seriously, enough of this already! Show me where I've "demanded you believe my beliefs", or "forced my beliefs" onto you. It's simple Fractelle, either quote me, and show me where I've done this, or stop making the accusations! Put up or shut up.

As an amused onlooker in all this, I'd say you were missing an important trend, Trav.

First Sells, in his remarks on the resurrection...

"...the resurrection of Jesus Christ is not an event that may be observed and examined so as to come to a conclusion about its reality or not, but rather is based on the subjective"

...and now Dan the Meringue:

>>the core of Christian teaching, that Jesus’ main task was to die in Jerusalem, and in so doing, in ways we don’t fully comprehend, he was “making all things new”<<

It would appear that the fashionable Christian is taking the Gospels in a strictly non-literal manner.

Thus freeing themselves from the need to explain anything in terms that are distinguishable in any way from magic. It must be a good feeling. Saves a lot of needless argument over what the word "dead" means, and so on.

So, get with it, Trav.

You too can be a Christian fashionista. No need for anything except a belief in magic.

Trav

You are ordering me on how I should respond to you on this forum, for example:

"Please, no more comments like that- they don't help you, me, or this discussion."

I hold a different opinion, I see your inability to consider anything other than a literal interpretation of the bible as absurd. That you continue to attempt claim that corporeal resurrection as a plausible explanation demeans your credibility and appears to be proselytising.

"Put up or shut up"

No explanation needed. You are clearly ordering me about.

Back on topic.

If Jesus is not human or more than human as some have claimed. Then the only explanation for his presence on our planet is that he is a life form from another world far superior to our own. I agree this is almost as far fetched as resurrection, but if true, leads me to ask, why should we worship aliens? And conversely why do aliens want to be worshiped? Sounds very imperialistic to me.