I only read a few lines and there it was...anti-semitism.

A twisted tale of alleged Israeli aggression that never existed any further than Israels huge struggle to survive against the demon spirit powers controlling surrounding Islamic nations.

HARRY G I can see good potential for reasoned debate with you...

You said:

<But I am certainly very critical of Hamas. I am very critical of all religions. I am very critical of anybody or any nation that resorts to violence, including brutal militarism, to resolve conflict if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued.>

2 major points.

1/ What are'adequate' diplomatic measures?

2/ Could you see a diplomatic resolution to the Rwandan Genocide once it began?

Then.. you stated:

<unless you believe, like our lovable friend Polycarp that killing is the only way.>

I think you have not grasped my position.

1/ The BEST way is found on the thread 'GOODNEWS for GAZA" Mousab Hassan.

2/ I have a feeling you are viewing Hamas from a secular/humanist/sentimental viewpoint without due regard for their own clear statements of purpose.

a)See if for a moment you can put on the mindset of a Jew who's family was killed in Auschwitz. He reads the unrenounced HAMAS charter as follows:

"Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it" (Page 1) then further where it says "The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews" yada yada.

b) Do you honestly see a 'diplomatic' solution to this? Please read Part 3/Article 11
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

c) Can you see room for negotiation and diplomacy when HAMAS leaders are saying "In spite of all the damage, we are fine and our rockets will continue to fly and do so with ever increasing range" ?

If possible.. stick to the questions raised without deviating this way or that..and when you have responded to these, feel free to bring other dimensions into it.

PS... Polycarp (=BD) appears to be banned. I tried to log on with the usual credentials which failed yesterday, but today (even though I previously requested BD credentials be erased) I managed to get in.
I assume they didn't erase them.

Dear Mac....

you said:

<<For the record, I think that Islam is a ridiculous superstition and that Islamic societies are primitive, however, unlike you, my personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant to any analysis of the ethical issues involved in Israel's relations with the Palestinians.>>

With all due respect...your analysis of Islam does not go far enough.

"Rediculous Superstition"....I quite agree. (but your statement is actually illegal in Vic)But you have not scoped out the inherent danger in it's doctrines nor gone deep enough.

That danger is found in how HAMAS has taken them up, as increasing numbers of the Arab world are, increasingly radicalized.. and the problem is.. it is so easy to take these genocidal and militaristic doctrines up because they are so prominent and central to Islam in my view.
(The existence of large moderate communities in Western minority demographic conditions means nothing..as you see, they become very aggresively vocal on our streets... even today (melb))

Western Muslims generally play the coy one.. by justifying "defensive" Jihad. The problem for the inexerpienced analyst is that they fail to grasp that the Muslim concept of 'defensive' includes any case where Islamic aspirations are thwarted.

The classic historical example is Caliph Omar's invasion of Persia.

No amount of mental gymnastics can detract from the fact that this was an outright invasion..offensive.. aimed at spreading Islamic rule.
He was a 'rightly guided' caliph..so his actions are beyond question.
His actions were also justified by reference to Surah 9:29 which I hope you have read if you are going to seriously discuss the ME problems and Islam in general.

It was his invasion of Israel in 637 which forms the basis of the HAMAS charter too.

Mac and others. The "ethics" are easy to follow; Hamas has declared it's implacable hostility to the Zionist Entity and is dedicated to Israel's destruction. It appears the Gazans accept this goal.

Let's imagine the Israelis withdraw from Gaza, and somehow the rocket attacks are stopped. That the borders reopen and the weapons smuggling is halted. Israel then withdraws it's forces from the West Bank and it's settlers evacuate.

At what point do any of you lefties think Hamas should drop it's stated goals of wiping out the Israelis? Or should that just be left as "unfinished business"?

The outstanding characteristic of a lefty is their belief that mass-extermination of opponents is allowed on political/religious grounds. Carried out by lefties from Lenin through Stalin/Hitler (those great mates) to Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and assorted socialist/religious dreamers like Sadaam, and Hamas, it comes as no surprise that the lefties in this blog demand Israel accept Hamas's stated goals, and actions, as legitimate.

For anyone wondering at how Islam and the left can be so pally; so united in there hatred of Israel, look no further than the eminent WWII Mufti of Jerusalem who first raised his followers against the "Imperialists" in Iraq in 1941,then went off to the Balkans to get local Muslims joining the Waffen SS!! Recall that this bloke met Adolf personally and got his support in preventing any "Zionist Entity" in the ME. Note ...

Hitler issued Order 30,

"The Arab Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally. In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq... I have therefore decided to move forward in the Middle East by supporting Iraq."

At the same time Germany was also "the natural ally" of Stalin, beloved icon of all lefties!! Recall that the ALP was later lead by Doc Evatt (another lefty icon), who took advice directly from Molotov, Stalin's Foreign Minister, the architect of the Hitler/Stalin pact. Got the drift?

Stalin..Hitler..Aussie Lefties..Muftis and Islamic fruitcakes; what a gang! But NOT anti-semetic of course; just fighting for freedom, justice and the...Hamas way. Cheers.

Strange arvo Boaz.
You cant get on as Poly and I couldnt get a thread up on anti-semitism (this Article is a classic on the anti-semitism) without being accused of using it to try and preach.
Wasnt what I was thinking at the time.
Just too many anti-jews on OLO.
Maybe theres a new buttock in the captains chair.
Maybe GY is crossing the floor.
Maybe this comment will disappear too or I will get banned for a week?

"Bigmal, I look forward to the day when Israelis can be as proud of an Arab prime minister as Americans are of Barack Obama."

What a completely stupid comment from you Sir Vivor.

Its infinitely more likely than the reverse, namely a jew being the PM of any Islamic Arab country- and what does that tell you.