Polycarp/BOAZ:
Easy to ask questions in 350 words, not always easy to answer with same limit.

“Adequate diplomatic measures” are, of course, impossible to define in this forum. When I used that phrase, I am taking a very personal view, as I point out “if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued”.

In other forums in which you and I have crossed swords, I have discussed why I am not content with ME negotiations over the last decades. As I have said, it is easy to blame America, and I am afraid I do, not from prejudice but from evidence.

The paradigm that “a government has a responsibility to protect its citizens” is probably supported by most, but this unfortunately does not lead to peace. Far better if governments acted with fairness and common good in mind, and consider citizens of the world.

Recently, US attacked Iraq for two stated reasons: WMD and to make US “safer”.

I contend that the US sees it being in its own interests to ensure that Israel remains strong, and Arabs (Palestinians in particular) remain weak.

Other reasons for my distrust of the US in peace negotiations have been reported in “Gaza distorted through media lens”. Examples of how tensions have been better managed (e.g. Libya, Cypress, Korea, South Africa, Ireland) have also been mentioned.

We won’t have had “adequate diplomatic measures” that satisfy me until we have a lasting peace settlement or we have an honest, disinterested broker who has tried and failed.

ME strategy is more like the Russia-Chechnya. The bully wins. We should be better than that in this stage of our development, though some neanderthals hold us back.

The Rwandan reference is a bit of a red herring, but not completely.

Rwanda does not have the sophisticated government infrastructure that other countries have. Almost by definition, Third World countries cannot manage themselves as well as first. A negotiated solution in Rwanda is even less likely than in ME.

Finding a peaceful conclusion to the ME conflict has been exacerbated by this problem as well.

...tbc

Both sides make serious claims against each other. Both sides claim human rights issues and, certainly, four attacks have been made on United nations facilities and personnel. So there MUST be a formal; investigation with either the International Criminal Court at The Haig running it or some other independent body. Otherwise, the peace process will be stifled

"Our conflict is not with the Jews; our problem is with the occupation." says SJF, quoting Hamas.

But of course if he had half a brain he would google the Hams Charter and after having a quiet read realise what disingenuous nonsense that is.

There is ample evidence to point to the fact that the agenda of most surrounding arab nations is the complete removal of Israel from the area.

Only Egypt and Saudi Arabia ahve any sort of pact with Israel that can be trusted-- and even then.

For those wondering how the cease-fire has been faring, below is a current report. Hamas rockets and Israeli WP shells are easy for journos to spot, from the periphery. What has happened, may still be happening on the ground in Gaza will, I hope, be thoroughly investigated.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10210.shtml

“ … the scene of destruction of neighborhoods suggests that wide-scaled home demolitions were systematically conducted by the IOF.

Al Mezan Center's field workers reported that entire urban blocks have disappeared in the areas of Ezbet Abed-Rabu, al-Salatin, al-Atatra, al-Israa in North Gaza District, and al-Kashif and al-Rayis Hills and the eastern suburbs of Gaza City. As of 2pm, medical teams had found 62 corpses of people under the rubble of houses, or rubble moved by Israeli bulldozers. Among them were eight children and 10 women. It is not known yet whether those were buried under the rubble alive or dead.

According to Al Mezan Center's monitoring, the IOF has breached the unilaterally declared ceasefire. Shooting and shelling from artillery batteries, tanks and naval vessels have occurred in various areas throughout the day. Israeli aircraft also launched raids on open areas. At 10:30am, Israeli troops opened fire at civilians who were trying to reach their homes in Khuzaa village, east of Khan Younis. A man, 22-year-old Mahir Abu Irjila, was killed as a result. The victim and his family had evacuated their house and stayed in a UN shelter.

http://www.mezan.org/site_en/press_room/press_detail.php?id=958

I am wondering whether bigmal has read that excellent historical romance, “Gone with the Wind”. The destruction of Atlanta is well dramatised, and the military and economic oppression of the former Confederate states, which followed the American Civil War, is there for anyone to read about. It is no surprise to me that Georgia included the Confederate flag in its state flag right into the 21st century, and the Confederate stars and bars are still to be found as part of the Mississippi state flag.
I hope that Israel can avoid repeating this kind of post-war stupidity and cruelty.

…continued from 19 January 2009 9:28:46 AM

Arafat was never a leader of a united nation. He was ever juggling the needs of the disparate and frequently changing groups which made up the PLO.

I agree that “Hamas is the product of generations of abuse and frustration by Israel against Palestinians.” As the PLO is splintered more and more, the desperados become more desperate, and though they see themselves as patriots, others see them as terrorists.

The steps to peace are not easy to plan, but if we can stop the killing and concentrate on negotiation, we are at least on the way. While there is killing, we are going backwards. The brokers can include Hamas in negotiations (not talking to them is ludicrous) with Fatah, and if Hamas won’t make any concessions, then it could well be possible to marginalise them. They will soon lose support. Other Arab nations hate Israel but have learned that they like peace more.

As with the Climate Change conference in Bali, the US must be told to "get out of the way." Or will Obama make the difference, the change we can believe in?

As disclosed in previous posts in the “Gaza distorted through media lens” topic, I have visited concentration camps, Ann Franke house etc and I do respect the view of the “Jew who’s (sic) family was killed in Auschwitz”, and I can only guess the pain of the father in Gaza whose (note spelling!) children were “collateral damage”.

You are hung up on Hamas charter. All in these forums seem to agree that it is odious, yet we try to encourage peace in the ME other than by brutal militarism. Hamas charter is part of the challenge.

I do view things from a secular /humanist viewpoint, but hardly sentimental. Humanism: "variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God."

Where is your problem, Polycarp? With “reason”?

I have answered your post as well as I can be bothered.

"What I consider to be terrorists is your freedom-fighters, and my freedom-fighters is what you consider to be terrorists."

After watching the 5 part series of "The Anglo-Jewish War" in youtube it is obvious that the Zionist movement began as a terrorist organisation led by Menachem Begin (leader of the Irgun). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYHoK54w2kg&feature=related

The Irgun committed acts of terrorism through random bombing, killing British troops and destroying Arab villages. Begin was to be the prime minister of Israel in 1977 and winner of the Nobel peace price 1979.

The same can be said of Arafat who in 1994 received the Nobel Peace Prize.

It is difficult to condemn the actions of the two men, or freedom-fighters like them because they were fighting for the very survival of the group which they represent.

HAMAS on the other hand are Islamists supported by Iran, certain groups in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Bngladesh, Afghanistan and those who aspire to setting up the a world caliphate. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6942688.stm

These Islamists are causing chaos, mayhem and killing in places like south Thailand, Mindanao Philippines, Kashmir and in Gaza.

Currently, Islamists are blowing up schools for girls, throwing acid on their faces and threatening the lives of teachers and students because they don’t believe girls should be educated. http://southasia.oneworld.net/todaysheadlines/taliban-bans-girls-education-in-northwest-pakistan

http://www.startribune.com/world/37791079.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUss

In fighting Islamists one should bomb their mosques, religious schools, assassinate their leaders and throw acid on the faces of those who attend their mosques. This is what they are doing to school girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It’s good to let them taste their own medicine.