You can exist without defending your self? I think you need a re-introduction with reality.

when the 'peoples' own 'government' starts terrorizing a select part of the population based on a general grouping that includes all...the bad, good and children...then its the duty of the whole population itself to step inbetween the government and selected-population...not just by words but physically by putting own life and limb on line...

current israel policy in gaza makes no long term sense...how many emotionally traumatized individuals have been created by israeli-government destruction of infrastructure and loss of dependant lives gaza...and how many of these people decide to give up on a 'creative' life to take up a destructive one...yeah more bombers...and its the 'people' of israel whom eventually suffer...

sure...war is a great stimulus for the economy, as nazi-germany showed...and gas fields off gaza sure a tempting apple for israel-government/business...but all these are short term views and solutions...

the only long term solution is good administrative practices with responsible-accountable government employees...supported by good parliamentary laws...that acts to give each and every individual of the population the same right to create a successful/happy life without infringing onto their fellow members societies rights with unbalanced self interest...cast creed irrelevant at society level...individual level yeah...

world is watching...

sam
Ps~I think its about time individuals put more effort to hone their skills to identify souls with unbalanced-self-interest...whom usually identify each other quite well and organize into effective co-operating parasitic units for benefit...to isolate and prevent ever achieving position of power or influence when they begin to act...

An Jewish voice in the wilderness?

http://www.newint.org/features/special/2009/01/12/gaza-war-crime-against-state-of-israel/

Nice one, Bruce Haigh. Any vestigial sympathy I might have had for Israel is evaporating daily.

Glad to read some historical understanding from some of our OLO's at last.

However, as a mature-age historian, might still not say sorry for publishing the following.

Have become truly ashamed at the way not only concerning the national media but the way our contributors have not been using more dinkum historical channels to find the real truth behind the ME Arab Israeli problem.

It is so interesting that it has taken the chief journalist of our only newspaper, the WEST AUSTRALIAN to allow in letters from veterans such as John Falconer, revealing the historical stuff-up that caused the melee certainly now getting bloody shamefully worse than ever.

Talking to the chief WEST' journo’ it seems that the four letters from different old-timers over the last week or so, reveal that the major historical mistake was not so much the break-up not long after WW2 between a victorious US with an inexperienced Truman, and a penniless UK with its heroic Churchill ousted by Labour, the arrogant Yanks simply ousted the Brits favouring the Jews rather than the Palestinians who had every right to be angry - even more so when the UK focused International plan to grant equal amounts of Palestine to both Jews and Arabs, was thrown out by Truman.

Finally, I’d suggest that not only our poorly gallant OLO’s look more to genuine academic historical accounts and less to Surge-like media spin - and might say the same about our management which like John Howard appear to prefer our OlO’s to favour a US backed heavily fortified israel, treating the lightly armed Palestinians like we nastily did to our own primitively armed Aborigines.

Probable Cheers, BB, Buntine, WA.

The interesting point is that Hamas now only draws sympathy from western lefties like Mr Haigh (and a few in Forums like this), or thuggish regimes like ...Iran...Syria?...Hezbollah?..and who else exactly?

The bleating and thug-hugging lefties who apologize for Hamas as they cause the slaughter of their "own" people is amazing to behold.

The jig is up. Hardly an Arab govt wants anything to do with Hamas. The Soviet Empire which used these Arabs as proxies in the Cold War is gone. The PLO has morphed into Fatah and has very cordial relations with Israel.

What else do lefty apologists for terrorist outfits like Hamas need to know? The sooner Hamas is eradicated; the sooner Gazans can be freed from their torment. That's all.

BTW. Among my acquaintances I am considered "anti-Jewish". It's rare to find such an even-handed fellow..I can assure you. Cheers.

A thoughtless & inaccurate article - I can't believe the editorial team published it!
The author needs to do his research to have a better understanding of the al-Qaeda's phenomenon - it has little to do with Israel, the US & for that matter Australia (we did get mentioned for our involvement in East Timor). It has everything to do with their Islamist ideology - to create an Ummah - an Islamic kingdom/nation throughout the world!
The author also apparently believes that we should cave in to terrorists demands - otherwise our troops would be greater targets. What nonsense.
I could go on & on but no real point responding to this nonsense!

I’m getting sick and tired of comments like “This time Israel has really overstepped the line” from idle chatterers sitting comfortably well away from the threats and attacks Israelis have had to endure for generations. If someone was trying to kill people like Haigh, they would soon find out that there are no ‘rules’ to self-defence.

“Hamas is the product of generations of abuse and frustration by Israel against Palestinians.”

What absolute drivel. Hamas is the terrorist product of fanatical Islamists who hate everybody and everything not like them.

We see more drivel in Haigh’s fourth paragraph: nonsense about Israel’s supposed scuttling to get something done before Christmas was over, and the coming exit of the “morally bankrupt” (talk about purple prose!) Bush administration.

Forget about the 60 or so Russian and Iranian rockets being fired by Hamas into Israel every day, and the long-standing threats of Arabs and plain terrorists to wipe Israel off the map. No – it’s all Israel’s fault for having the temerity to defend itself and its people! How dare Israel use “disproportionate” force, squeal people like Haigh, as if they themselves would play by Queensbury Rules if they or their families were attacked by a gang of thugs.

And, who says that Israel lies? This is another figment of the loony left imagination: it’s all part of the plain as the nose of your face campaign against Israel by people who represent the ‘sophisticated’ wing of the anti-Israel, pro Arab extremist movements. Never a word against Hamas and other terrorists groups; and sympathy for the people who elected Hamas when they are killed and maimed by another country defending itself from their wonderful representatives.

And, of course some Jews oppose Israel’s action in Gaza. They are the same self-hating lefties we have in all democratic countries and, almost certainly, they don’t live in the towns which are constantly bombarded by Hamas rockets. And, like Bruce Haigh, they probably continually criticise their own Governments. In Haigh’s case, given his career experiences, it is odd that he thinks our Government will do what he wants

There are probably no lines for Israel to overstep. Whatever atrocities Israel commits "defending itself" from the relatively defenceless Palestinians will be ignored or rationalized by the US. With America on its side Israel doesn't need to care about world opinion so it will continue to oppress the Palestinians and steal their land. Israel should be treated the same way as the former apartheid regime in SA.

Leigh,

so Israel doesn't lie, really, and presumably the sun shines out of every Israeli's "you know what". I have this treasure map guaranteed by the Israeli government, a real bargain.

Looks like a couple more righty freaks who care little about the revelatory historical insight revealed by John Falconer et al.

In fact, certainly could recommend a good solid historical course for those first mentioned.

The lesson is of course, never to use foresight without proven historical insight to back it up.

True Middle Roader, BB, Buntine, WA

Not only did Israel not 'step over' any line....they have not gone anywhere near far enough!

The only solution to this problem is the total elimination of HAMAS.

HAMAS deserve as much sympathy as those taken before the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals. "We" (the Allies) captured then KILLED the following:

Martin Bormann
Hans Frank
Wilhelm Frick
Herman Goering
Alfred Jodl
Ernst Kaltenbrunner
Wilhelm Keitel
Joachim Von Ribbentrop
Alfred Rosenberg
Fritz Sauckel
Arthur Seyss Inquart
Julius Striecher.

TO THESE NAMES we may add the following in due course.

Khalid Mishaal
Ismail Haniya
Mahmoud Zahar
Abu Obeida

The crimes are the same.. "attempted genocide of the Jewish race"

It matters not that HAMAS is a crappy little gang of thugs.. what DOES matter is their ideology and determination to carry it out no matter what.

ABU OBEIDA (Qassan brigades) said in a HAMAS video.

"We are still in good shape.. we will continue firing our rockets at your towns and their range will become ever greater"

This man has confessed publically to attemping to murder uncountable civilian Jews.. and thus must be punished for it (along with the others) in line with our treatment of NAZI'S in Nuremberg.

The essay says:
"For Israel to have created more instability and uncertainty in the Middle East is irresponsible and selfish in the extreme ..."

With great respect, Mr Haigh, "Israel" has not created or destroyed anything. It is actors in the current Israeli administration and the current command of the IDF who allow shameful acts to continue. There may be a caucus in these bodies, but I doubt there is consensus.

Selfishness is a human trait. Nations cannot be selfish any more than genes can be selfish. Neither nations nor genes have the ability to question, or feel ashamed; nations are no more human than a bear scavenging on a garbage dump.

Germany felt no shame after WWII, but many Germans certainly did. I pray that some actors within the state of Israel will bring their colleagues to heel, before it gets any later. It is already too late.

Mac (and others). Over the past 60 years the once vast array of Arab nations ready to attack Israel has dwindled to the point that only ONE (Iran) still threatens violence, while one other (Syria) mutters darkly.

During these six decades, Israel has remained a very small country with a tiny population sandwiched between vast Arab/Muslim lands having hundreds of millions of citizens. I am yet to see any sign of serious expansion or threat of such from Israel.

The West Bank Palestininans are (slowly) en route to complete Independence. The PA recognizes Israel and, except for tut-tuttings at times like the current police action in Gaza, the majority of Arabs know Israel is no threat (eg Israelis can enter Egypt but NOT Palestininans!)

At this point all lefties should be asking themselves "if arab nations can accept that the Second Holocaust ain't gonna happen..why can't we?" I can understand Hamas giving diehard anti-semites (ie lefties) hope that the 1945 ovens will be restoked, but I can't accept that ALL of you are that dumb.

History has moved on. For every western lefty demanding the average Gazan kill a few Israelis, there is an actual Gazan demanding to know why they can't be allowed to live in peace with their Israeli neighbours.

Of course, Hamas recently murdered several hundred of these in it's anti-Fatah progrom, but there must be tens of thousands of others awaiting the chance to eradicate the murderers. Think about it. cheers.

Leigh, I am sure you are aware of Mencken’s comment that “For every complex problem, there's a simple solution and it's usually wrong”. I fear you have fallen for this trap.

Islam is the principal religion in the Arab states. Palestine is part of the Arab community. Terrorist and fanatical groups are generally recognised as the product of failed states. Palestine is a failed “state”. (I had to put the quotes around “states” to stop someone from telling me there is no Palestinian state). We are all the product of our environments.

Haigh’s claim that “Hamas is the product of generations of abuse and frustration by Israel against Palestinians” is much more likely to be true than yours.

Your reference to religion (“fanatical Islamists”) is justified, but you should be aware that there are fanatics in all religions. Israelis are also the product of their environment, and they are reacting accordingly. Israel itself has become an “extreme right-wing” country, with many fanatical in their beliefs. (Come to think of it, you seem a bit fanatical yourself)

Part of Israel's environment is a strong economy, a powerful military, strong morale and financial support from the US, and this explains much of their activity over the decades. But they are losing support from the rest of the world, it appears. Why is it losing that support? Because, to quote Haigh, “Israel has really overstepped the line”.

(I base my view that Israel is losing support on the resolutions from the UN, and general newspaper commentary from around the world. I have no "hard facts".)

No one is forgetting about the “Russian and Iranian rockets”, though these are fading in significance compared with the assault on Gaza. Why are they fading? Because “Israel has really overstepped the line”.

The vehemence evident in your post indicates that you could have extremist religious viewpoints yourself. Would you like to confirm or deny for our edification?

History is written by the victors or the most powerful and those who write the truth are branded heretics or anti-Semitic.
Reality is experienced by the victims. It is hard to see Israel as a whole as a victim now- a -days. Yes Israel has a right to exist but to strangle its neighbour by leaching its land and ability to survive?

The problem with Hamas and Hezbollah is that they are funded and armed by external regimes in a proxy war of survival too. Granted some of these regimes are despotic but then again Israel and its all too powerful extremists aren't above a bit of despotism.

Clearly Israel’s real beef it with these regimes behind Hamas and Hezbollah but international politics being what it is direct contact and resolution is mired in national pride etc. Hence it’s easier for both sides to fight a proxy war in which case the increasingly helpless and desperate Palestinians are the victims.

I concur with CJ I'm running out of tolerance with the whole proxy thing and in particular Israel's “holier than thou” unconscienceable behaviour.

I would like to know where in the Jewish religion does it say 2 wrongs= a right (you chose the interpretation of right)?
19 dead in 6 years V 500 in less than 3 weeks most of which are children is hardly proportional.
As for the argument that the Israelis are stressed because of the rockets and therefore justifies this over the top action. By this reasoning to living next to Israel in near 3rd world conditions with a greater probability of dying from an Israeli oops or “acceptable collateral damage” (sic) gives the Palestinians claim to greater suffering.
Then there’s the cause and effect Israel suppresses the Palestinians, they become more radicalized and the cycle goes on. Israel the stronger is in a better position to stop the cycle of violence if it wanted to. Which it apparently doesn’t.

Bruce is right Israel doesn’t care and Australia should stop giving ‘me too’ unconditional support to Israel.

It was not Germany that was ashamed and stigmatised after WWII, but rather, individual Germans who carried that burden. I expect some still do, and it may well be that some still remain who feel no remorse, but must remember to look over their shoulder.

I recommend the website B'Tselem
www.btselem.org/English
and the update blogs they mention below.
Here is part of the email announcing this development:

"For the past two weeks, B’Tselem has been working intensively, under extremely difficult conditions, to document and publicize the harm caused to civilians in the Gaza Strip as part of this fighting. Within a local public discourse that is centered on the military goals of the operation, B’Tselem’s role as an Israeli organization speaking out against disproportionate harm to civilians is crucial."

"Under these unusual circumstances, we have chosen to join forces with the other human rights organizations in Israel in order to maximize the visibility of our collective voice. In addition to a joint press conference held yesterday and daily cooperation on gathering information, we are running an online blog to disseminate information on the human toll of the fighting."

"We urge you to visit our blog daily and follow the ongoing work of the Israeli human rights community on this issue:

Hebrew: http://gazaheb.blogspot.com
English: http://gazaeng.blogspot.com

Wow, the Israel supporters are really out on a limb now!
It should be self evident that they have stepped over a line when so many innocents die needlessly and "war" is waged on a penned in town of civilians. ("like villagers with guns" quoted an Israel soldier)
Seems even the rest of the world screaming "too far!" is not enough.
The shrill cries of "self defence" ring hollow when all the facts are presented. Sure rockets were fired during a ceasefire...but critical supplies were blockaded too. Promises were broken on both sides. The fact is, a modern wealthy nation is waging asymetric warfare against a population with very few options. Reminds me of a bar fight where the egos and drunkeness lead to stupid, inevitable escalation.
Yep, the US started it all and it could have stopped it too, but that would have involved agreeing with most of Europe...so that wasn't on.
Have you seen all the UN resolutions that were blocked by the US? Hundreds of them!
Sorry folks, but it is very clear where the "loony fringe" is on this one.
I am really really sick of Israel fanboys calling anyone shocked at their behaviour "anti-semitic". This schoolyard tactic may well backfire on them.
The neutral consensus now is that Israel has gone too far. The US must now find some honor and actually broker a *fair* peace.

“Israel knows but it doesn’t care. This is dangerous.”

Maybe Israel just cares more about the rockets which land on its schools than the munitions which land on Palestinian schools

“Hamas is the product of generations of abuse and frustration by Israel against Palestinians”

And the Israeli / Munich athletes and hundreds of innocent jet airliner passengers have died at the hand of murderous Palestinian thugs over the past 60 years, who fathered this generation of Palestinian butchers known as ‘Hamas’.

Nothing has changed, least of all the Palestinians, who I recall, were not lead out of Jordan by Arafat but were kicked out.

“For Israel to have created more instability and uncertainty in the Middle East is irresponsible and selfish in the extreme,”

I suppose the Israeli government takes a priority of responsibility to those who elect it to power than those who fire rockets at its electorate.

The whole article is just a poorly constructed bunch of malevolent and monocular drivel.

The actions of Hamas, over the past few years, clearly justify the one-third 1994 Nobel peace prize, handed to Arafat, being posthumously rescinded.

punter57,

You're very amusing,"I am yet to see any sign of serious expansion or threat of such from Israel" I refer you to the 1967 war when Israel expanded quite seriously and still hasn't managed to trim its waistline. I know,I know, it was all in self-defence.

This one is even funnier " The West Bank Palestinians are(slowly) en route to complete independence, what route is that? That statement reminds me of Zeno's paradox. Given the expansion of the settlements, the Palestinians will be left with little, if anything.

Finally the desperate straw man argument, that critics of Israel are all rabid anti-semites, some are, some aren't. Western anti-semitism is irrelevant to the moral argument in regard to the policies of the nation state of Israel. Why oh why are some people so cowed by the accusation "anti-semite" that they apply a double standard to Israel and its policies?

"The problem with Hamas and Hezbollah is that they are funded and armed by external regimes in a proxy war of survival too."

Hamas was initially supported and funded by Israel and the USA so they could drive a wedge between Fateh and the PLO. Now Fateh seem to have been the preferred political option but never managed to win a single concession.

The USA continually supplied the PLO with armaments and other items in exchange for intelligence from the Middle East (a policy scrapped by GWB to the alarm of his own intelligence community and with devastating results).
Meanwhile Mossad were quietly assassinating the Arab go-betweens so Israel seem to have gotten their way eventually.

Likewise, Israel supplied South Africa with weapons in spite of the international apartheid blockade - as well as several South American despots, so they've been as happy to spread oppression elsewhere while claiming to be victims of it.

Things are usually more complicated than they seem in that region but that doesn't seem to stop reactionary and increasingly exaggerated outbursts by fanatics on both sides.

I agree that Israel has squandered probably the last of whatever international goodwill it may have had left.

They've been living off the horrors inflicted on a previous generation too long and it's time the consequences of their own actions were taken into account, like those of the rest of the international community.

Thanks Leigh and Col. You uncover the hypocrisy of Mr Haigh so precisely. It surprises me that someone from the left can actually recognise that their is any line to overstep. I wonder who drew that line. Surely not the morally corrupt UN?

What rubbish Bwuce.

Israel has overstepped the line huh? So how many years of constant rocket attacks would you endure before you said "enough!".

Shame on you for taking sides. Both are at fault and the world knows that. Your ridiculous one sided drivel is simply adding fuel to the fire.

No one should support what either mob or murderers do. They are both guilty. Don't you get it? It'll blow over soon.

They've only been at it for 2000+ years after all. Give them a chance to resolve it!!

Ahhh, religion. Ya gotta love it don't ya?

MX,

Ahh, this morning I believe. Rockets constitute invasion as those who die would see it I believe. You must be a complete idiot, not just a partially made one.

And then there's Runner. Still obsessed with the 50's idealogies of left and right. Check your calender Runner, they don't exist any more. Today we have way right and just right of right. Left disappeared decades ago mate. You could call it left of way right and that'd be accurate but left? No. There, not their. OK,. Maybe your 50's dictionary got that wrong too.

Morally corrupt UN. Morally is a surplus word Runner. Just corrupt is sufficient.

Conscientious Israelis acknowledge that
the Hamas rockets rationale is fraudulent.

Jerusalem Post writer Larry Defner has noted:

"We don't want to see how people in Gaza are
living, we block it out of our minds...
which, I suppose, is natural for a society
at war, but which also keeps that war going
longer than it might if we would recognize that
Gaza is getting so much the worst of it..."

"The (Palestinian) Kassam (rockets) have
terrorized the 25,000 people in Sderot and
its environs, but have caused very, very
few deaths or serious wounds. By contrast,
Israel has terrorized 1.5 million Gazans,
locket them inside their awfully narrow borders,
throttled their economy, and killed and
seriously wounded thousands of them ..."

Yes, Israel has really over stepped the line.
Perhaps if they looked at the whole picture
instead of just their half of it, and asked
themselves, "What have we done wrong to incur
their wrath?" And then acted to correct the
situation, they might spend less time having to
fight their enemies.

Hamas has fired thousands of rockets on Israel. Yes rockets. Not the fireworks kind but those pointy things which go up in the air, travel for a long distance and when they land go bang causing huge damage and killing people. Has Israel gone too far when the rockets are still being fired?

And have you read the Hamas charter? It reads like Mein Kampf. And have you seen the Hamas propaganda? Those pictures which show the poor Palestinians walking down the street carrying candles, because the nasty Israelis had shut off power. They did make a bit of a mistake and forgot to turn off the neon signs in the shops. Obviously the Israelis had not turned off the switch but the journos just fell for it hook line and sinker. And then the good people reading by candlelight, with sun streaming in around the edges of improperly shut curtains. Do you really believe their figures about their death rate? One claim was 1083 people killed in a raid. Surprisingly accurate after a raid.

Where are your critical facilities? Have you all forgotten the Bali bombing already? Was that the product of a dispossessed people? Islamic fanaticism is alive and well. I pity most of all the poor Palestinians suffering under an evil Hamas government, and their poor children bought up to be suicide bombers.

References

Hamas Charter which contains the following.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Of course the completely mad will dismiss this as Zionist propaganda or Jewish control of the media.

"Not only did Israel not 'step over' any line....they have not gone anywhere near far enough!

The only solution to this problem is the total elimination of HAMAS."

Polycarp,

The more correct answer is the total elimination of the zealots who are prepared to do anything for their own cause ... on both sides of the conlict. The problem with this strategy, however, in the world we actually live in is that many thousands of innocent people will die before the Hamas hardliners are killed. (After all, Hamas are hardly likely to set up a tent city in the desert so that the Israeli airforce can have a turkey shoot and kill them all in an afternoon.)

Discriminating between good and bad in the Gazan conflict is just like being treated for cancer - the chemotherapy treatment kills as many if not more good cells as cancerous cells.

the third para is a ripper- Hamas is 'radical, even fanatical' and Israel thru fear and stubbornness is 'as radical as Hamas'. Spot on,(altho i'ii break it gently Bruce, the SA Apartheid regime did not survive).

How many more decades of this sort of insanity? Israel must realise that the Palistinians will never succumb to this sort of brutality and that they are gradualy losing the PR war as well.

Hamas must bear responsibility for the loss of life and liberty of their people. Their Jew hating tactics are about as sensible as Taiwan lobbing missiles onto the mainland. Doh!

My solution

1. we should stop taking sides
2. stop Iran from developing nukes
3. remove nukes from Israel
4. establish UN HQ in and around Jerusalem in a UN protectorate
5. staff UN with the locals, charged with the duty of bringing about world peace
6. make the region truly international as a centre of global universities, galleries and museums

A rather disappointing dhimmi–minded article. Many in OLO are getting emotional about HAMAS, an Islamists organisation bent on destroying secular democracy and establishing shariah law and the caliphate world-wide.

HAMAS rigged the election in Gaza and annihilated members of the secular Muslim organisation FATAH in Gaza.

Not surprising that FATAH is supporting Israel and calls on moderate Muslims not to get emotional over the liberation of Gaza from the Islamists.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950868927&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Punter57,

You very kindly say of lefties "...but I can't accept that ALL of you are that dumb."

I have tell you that they are ALL THAT DUMB. Lefties are dangerously dumb. Loot at our dumb government and our dumb PM who is so dumb he thinks it's OK for him to be overseas more than he is at home

Philip Tang,

You assert “HAMAS rigged the election in Gaza”.

Sydney journalist, Alex Mitchell, says the following:

“The election was monitored by a 185-strong European Union election observation mission from 23 EU member states. They were 'deployed throughout the West Bank and Gaza to assess the whole electoral process in the light of international principles for genuine democratic elections'. The mission was headed by Ms Veronique De Keyser, a Socialist MEP from Belgium.

“The official mission was joined by a 27-member delegation from the European Parliament led by a British Conservative MEP, Edward McMillan-Scott.

“The mission concluded:

“These elections (in Gaza and the West Bank) saw impressive voter participation in an open and fairly contested electoral process that was efficiently administered by a professional and independent Palestinian Central Elections Commission (CEC).

“As with the 2005 presidential election, the Palestinian people have demonstrated an overwhelming commitment to determine their political future via democratic means, in spite of the uncertain conditions in which the elections took place.

“Voting proceeded smoothly and peacefully with an impressive turnout of 77 per cent of the total number of registered voters." (It was 81 per cent in Gaza - AM).

“Over 22 per cent of the candidates on national lists were women, a positive reflection of the new legal requirement to include a proportion of women candidates.

“McMillan-Scott, leader of Conservative MEPs between 1997 and 2001, endorsed the final report which said the elections 'marked another important milestone in the building of democratic institutions'. He added: 'The conduct of these elections has provided a model for the wider Arab region and has clearly demonstrated the commitment of the Palestinian people to democracy.'”

So Philip, what is the justification for your assertion? What evidence do you have? Have you just made a mistake? Have you access to information I am not aware of?

Or have you lied to try to prove a point? I certainly hope not.

Your credibility is on the line.

Ami Eden, national editor of the (US)
Jewish newspaper, "Forward" challenged
the establishment Jewish organisations
in the 'New York Times,' in 2005.

"It is time Jews recognise that the old
strategies no longer work," he wrote.

"Jewish organisations and advocates fail
to grasp that they are no longer viewed
as the voice of the disenfranchised.
Rather, they are seen as the global Goliath,
close to the seats of power and capable
of influencing policies and damaging reputations.
As such, their efforts ... increasingly appear
as bullying..."

It is now up to the US and the international
community to force both Israel and Hamas
to meet face-to-face, listen to each other's
grievances and negotiate with honesty.

Only then, and on the condition that both
of them achieve safety and security will this
conflict be resolved.

It's now up to the US and the internationl community
to take action.

According to the Guardian, looks like Obama and the Clintons are going to try the old Sermon on the Mount trick part of which is not only in a modern sense helping anyone broken down on a shared Palestine road be it Arab or Jew, but even trying to sympathise with your enemy just a bit, even having a go at that old philosophy, Sharing the Blame.

Actually it is said that this philosophy really originated with the Greeks, whose wise men from the Great Library of Alexandria influenced the young Jesus while he was in Egyot with his mother.

Anyhow, might be an idea for even us rough bushies to try and pray that Obama does give it a go.

Here's Hoping, BB, Buntine, WA

Philip Tang: << HAMAS, an Islamists organisation bent on destroying secular democracy and establishing shariah law and the caliphate world-wide >>

While Hamas is certainly an odious Islamic organisation, its charter doesn't say anything about establishing a worldwide caliphate. You don't need to stray into hysterical Islamophobia in order to demonstrate that Hamas is a major part of the Palestinian problem, rather than its solution. Like your claim about Hamas' election, it doesn't help your case when you tell porkies.

Ditto with those who insist on erroneously comparing the Hamas charter with 'Mein Kampf' - those who do so have obviously read neither.

I quite like palimpsest's suggestions. Although somewhat unrealistic, they at least provide positive goals to which Palestinians and Israelis might aspire if they ever come to their collective senses.

Idiots who babble on about "Lefties" and "destroying" Hamas only demonstrate their ignorant prejudices. While Hamas is a radical Islamist organisation, it is a direct product of Israeli excess. The Palestinian electorate is hardly likely to oust them while the idiotic Israelis are busily demonstrating that their claims about Zionists are true.

HarryG,

Exit polls suggests election might have been rigged.

"Two exit polls showed the ruling Fatah Party winning the most votes in yesterday's parliamentary election, with the Islamic militant group Hamas finishing a strong second. Fatah took 46.4 percent of the vote, while the Islamic militant group Hamas took 39.5 percent, according to a Bir Zeit University exit poll. An exit poll by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Public Opinion gave Fatah 42 percent and Hamas 35 percent."

“The polls carried out by Bir Zeit University and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research had large sample sets of 8,000 voters and 17,500 voters, respectively. The margin of error was 2-3 percentage points at worst. However, the discrepancy between the exit poll predictions and reported election results in terms of the total vote is 20 and 25 percentage points, respectively. In a statistical sense, the odds of this being true for one exit poll is one in a hundred million. For two separate exit polls to be so far off is essentially statistically impossible.”
http://www.spiritoftruth.org/palestinianelection.htm

More importantly, democracy is effective only if political parties are committed to it. HAMAS is not committed to the democratic ideal because the party's emerald-green banner bears the Islamic slogan, "There is no God but God, and Muhammad is his prophet."

HAMAS is using the democratic process to establish shariah law, killing minority Arab Christians, Palestinian Jews, moderate Muslims and those who do not agree with its Islamic ideology. In true democracy, there is the rule of law and the rights of the minority are respected.
http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/jan/13/hamas-not-answer-palestinians/

HAMAS is also killing its own people, the Palestinians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Q-znnAPyI&feature=related
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6041204945834291260

FATAH on the other hand is a secular organization (wife of Arafat is a Christian) fighting for the rights and freedom of the Palestinian people against the Zionist and capitalist West. There is evidence to suggest that the HAMAS was initially supported by the Zionist and capitalist West.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

First Step; understand that Israel will not be disappearing any time soon. Then make peace with them..and the problem's solved.

Mac claims Israel has nabbed land and hung onto it tenaciously ever since 1967. except that when Egypt made peace with them..they returned the Sinai and the problem was solved!

Fatah has decided that peace is best and that israel is not going away; the problem is in the process of being solved.

Now, plenty of lefties like CJ Morgan deny they are lefties but still adhere to groupthink and 1970s lefty ideas of Zionist Entities and nasty Jews. Despite Hamas being disowned by almost everybody, western lefties champion them. Apart from Iranian and Syrian thugs..and lefties like Mac and CJ the world has rejected them.

Murdering hundreds of Fatah supporters has not made Hamas the "bad guys" in the eyes of these lefties..which tells you plenty about how they (the lefties) view opposition in authoritarian thug-run hell-holes. And probably how THEY would deal with anyone not marching to their tune. Not much to debate with such lefties is there? Cheers.

PS. Should any lefties feel agrieved at being cast as supporters of repressive Islamofascist political murderers, feel free to severely criticise Hamas..in addition to Israel of course!

In addition to the good references provided by Philip Tang this is closer to reality than the ignorance displayed by the author.

http://www.meforum.org/article/2048

Philip Tang

Thank you for answering the challenge. At least you can support what you said, though I would not be very confident of the source. I am not dogmatic enough to say it is wrong, though I am more confident in my source than yours.

Do you think the US landed on the moon, or are those moon shots taken in a studio somewhere? Was Kennedy assassinated by the CIA? It is very easy to believe what you want to believe, and I would suggest that if you take the site you cited as your only or main source, you should be very careful citing it with confidence, and certainly not as an unquestionable fact.

Punter, many have accused me as being a “leftie”, though I am not sure what it means. I think it means different things to different people.

But I am certainly very critical of Hamas. I am very critical of all religions. I am very critical of anybody or any nation that resorts to violence, including brutal militarism, to resolve conflict if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued. So what is your point?

Bigmal, an interesting article, but does not even mention “election”, so is irrelevant to Philip Tang’s response to me. The article comes from a site whose aim “to define and promote American interests in the Middle East”. It should be read, in the interests of reading different viewpoints, but it should be read with care. You would not want to be reading rightwing propaganda now, would you?

None of this has been terribly relevant as to the proposal that “Israel has really overstepped the line”, unless you believe, like our lovable friend Polycarp that killing is the only way.

punter57,

The reason that the Israelis returned Sinai to Egypt was simple strategic calculations, they don't want Sinai, unlike the West Bank which is an essential part of the Zionist fantasy. You haven't responded to my comment in regard to the expansion of the "settlements" there.

Israel's invasion of Gaza is an example of the practice of collective punishment, the Lidice solution, used by brutal occupiers throughout history, "you kill one we'll kill 100".

Leigh& punter57,

A pause for reflection, without the efforts of "lefties" we would all still be in the 16th century without democracy,science, industrial civilization and the secular state. Only the small aristocratic percentage of the population would have any political power at all. Thank the Left for all the rights and privileges you enjoy today. The next Leftist project should be to improve the collective IQ of the partisans of the Right, which will, of course,automatically convert them all into social democrats.

"You would not want to be reading rightwing propaganda now, would you?

Certainly not.

But at least my reference should indicate to Haigh and others that there is lot more to it, than his simplistic and unfounded assertions.

I hope he bothers to do more homework/investigation before venturing forth next time.

Bigmal,

Blind Freddy can "see there is a lot more to it". But then, Blind Freddy's optic nerves have yet to be rotted away by terminal smugness.

Your view of the conflict bears about the same level of sophistication as the interviewees on the video below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQJOX4sUq30

An accompanying (left wing) article can be found at:
http://www.alternet.org/story/119372/pro-israel_rally_attended_by_big-time_ny_dems_descends_into_calls_for_'wiping_out'_palestinians

noting that
" ... [New York Governer] Paterson highlighted the anti-Semitism that has followed in the wake of Israel’s attack on Gaza, highlighting the beating of a teen-age girl in France. “This kind of anger and hatred spreads like a disease,” Paterson said, “and one thing I've always pointed out is there's no place for hate in the Empire State.”

But hatred was plentiful at the rally Paterson addressed. Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, “Islam Is A Death Cult.” Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a “cancer,” called for Israel to “wipe them all out,” insisting, “They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children.” A young woman told me, “Those who die are suffering God’s wrath.” “They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?” said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally."

Bigmal, I look forward to the day when Israelis can be as proud of an Arab prime minister as Americans are of Barack Obama.

Punter, from one with a strong historical knowledge, one has to stay like a good football umpire straight down the centre, which means that the Israelies since they were thankfully saved from bestial Nazi death camps, have become somewhat like the Nazis themselves, making me somewhat sympathetic with the Islamic side, not that one has to like them, but like a good umpire try to stick to rules that are being badly broken by both sides.

Therefore, if one does try to be sympathetic, from a historian's point of view, one should be incllined to treat the Arabs somewhat like our Aborigines, treat them more kindly than the side that is getting most of the mercenary colonial-style help, as Israel is getting from America.

Regards, BB, Buntine, WA.

OK. When blokes like mac completely ignore that Sinai was handed back to Egypt as part of a peace deal..you know where you stand. Those scheming Jews are always wrong or.....well, scheming.

The point is that we (bloggers) have our emotional allegiances as well as our "rational" ones. That's why some are totally prejudiced and others only partly so.

I've lived and worked in a number of Arab and muslim nations. I've known many Muslims in Australia and also overseas in places where we both were foreigners. I've also been to Israel and stayed with friends there (I'm not Jewish).

My observation is that I'm yet to meet any Muslim I could consider a friend (99% were males of course) and that I have not the slightest empathy with any of them either. To discuss politics or religion or social issues or world affairs was impossible. The slightest disagreement, and anger (or contempt) was their response (hundreds of individuals remember). Without exception they had a huge sense of superiority (mixed with inferiority!). They, quite literally, could barely tolerate an infidel. I wish it had been different but it wasn't.

On the other hand I've met plenty of Israelis, and other Jews, with whom rational conversation on any subject was possible. This is not to say I haven't disliked quite a few..some intensely.

So what am I saying? Simple; I sympathize with Israel because I prefer freedom of expression..of discussion..of life in general. I know first-hand that most Arabs and Muslims do not accept this. I am also saying I would prefer Arabs and Muslims to be fair-minded and free rather tha Israel to become a hellhole of repression like most of it's neighbours.

Hamas wants a compliant horde of cowed followers, and an exterminated Israel. Lefties want this too; otherwise why aren't they condemning Hamas (they can criticize Israel as well, of course)? Israel does NOT want it so they are fighting. Pretty simple, eh?

punter57: << Now, plenty of lefties like CJ Morgan deny they are lefties but still adhere to groupthink and 1970s lefty ideas of Zionist Entities and nasty Jews. Despite Hamas being disowned by almost everybody, western lefties champion them. Apart from Iranian and Syrian thugs..and lefties like Mac and CJ the world has rejected them. >>

Now, where have I ever denied that I'm a "lefty"? I certainly am a "lefty" from where you apparently sit, but then again so would Attila the Hun be, I suspect. As for me supposedly supporting Hamas, what I said was that it is "an odious Islamic organisation - hardly "championing" them, no?

If you were to get over your obviously ingrained antipathy towards Muslims and Islam in general, you might be able to understand my point that Israel is at least as responsible for the existence of Hamas as Islam is. The more Israel tries to "destroy" Hamas, the more popular support Hamas will attract from Palestinians and their supporters.

In this conflict, neither side is in the right - rather, both sides are culpable. However, as it is the Palestinians who have had their land expropriated by the Zionists, many of us "lefties" tend to feel slightly more sympathy for them than the Zionist aggressors, regardless of any religious considerations.

Punter, all I can now ask of you as a qualified historian, have you any qualifications to take the Israeli side leaving the Arabs as just low life, the way you express, or if you have not, might pay you to do a strong study on not only the Palestinian problem but the whole Middle East post-colonial problem.

The crackpots supporting Hamas - a TERRORIST organisation - must be glad that they live in a country like Austalia where there is freedom of speech, unlike Hamas's Palestine and other Islamic states.

Punter
Every time you metaphorically open your mouth, you betray yourself.

If someone says to me "I am not a racist, many of my friends are black, but ...." something in my brain tells me "careful, this person sounds to me like a racist in denial".

Similarly, if someone writes that they have met Muslims (you say 99% were males, so by implication you have met close to 100; if you had only met ten, one of whom was female you would have said 90%; or you are loose with the truth) and you have not been able to find one "friend" among them, those little receptor cells in my brain tells me there is a deep ingrown prejudice about to be revealed.

Despite all the protestations by your arch enemies (the dreaded "lefties") that they have sympathy for the Israelis as well as the Palestinians (and even Hamas), you carry on, screeching like the proverbial banshee, clearly unable to "listen" and screech at the same time.

Your Jan16 post ("What else do lefty apologists for terrorist outfits like Hamas need to know? The sooner Hamas is eradicated; the sooner Gazans can be freed from their torment." reveals you as a fanatical right winger, just as dangerous as the other extremists whom you savage and disparage.

Sit back and relax, contemplate your navel, engage in some introspection, re-read your posts. Do you think you make a positive contribution to the world? Are you a good role model for others, especially children?

I cannot speak for other "lefties" in this forum, but I can assure you that I think about these issues a lot, and this is possibly why I try to show a lot of compassion and respect for others. I might not agree with others, but will still seek a fair and just approach to problem resolution, and not cry "Death to all who disagree".

This does not mean that I will not endorse military resolution if all else has failed. But last resort means last resort.

It doesn't make me perfect, but it makes me feel better.

Now that Israel has declared a unilateral cease fire, it will be interesting to see the reaction of Hamas. Will they now give up their terrorist activities and start to rebuild their society physically and economically for the benefit of the people of Gaza? Will they stop spending all their money on arms and rockets? Will they stop their smuggling operations? Will they stop firing rockets into Israel?
Or will they just keep trying to destroy Israel as they state in their charter?

punter,

your attempts to portray critics of Israel as anti-semitic are tedious and clumsy. I'll paraphrase Dr Johnson and say that accusations of anti-semitism are the first refuge of uncritical supporters of Israel. For the record, I think that Islam is a ridiculous superstition and that Islamic societies are primitive, however, unlike you, my personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant to any analysis of the ethical issues involved in Israel's relations with the Palestinians. Do you only allow human rights to those you agree with or find congenial to your prejudices?

Your other egregious error is the equation that Hamas= the Palestinian people as a group. I and other people posting on this site have pointed out that Israel gets the Hamas it deserves.

I only read a few lines and there it was...anti-semitism.

A twisted tale of alleged Israeli aggression that never existed any further than Israels huge struggle to survive against the demon spirit powers controlling surrounding Islamic nations.

HARRY G I can see good potential for reasoned debate with you...

You said:

<But I am certainly very critical of Hamas. I am very critical of all religions. I am very critical of anybody or any nation that resorts to violence, including brutal militarism, to resolve conflict if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued.>

2 major points.

1/ What are'adequate' diplomatic measures?

2/ Could you see a diplomatic resolution to the Rwandan Genocide once it began?

Then.. you stated:

<unless you believe, like our lovable friend Polycarp that killing is the only way.>

I think you have not grasped my position.

1/ The BEST way is found on the thread 'GOODNEWS for GAZA" Mousab Hassan.

2/ I have a feeling you are viewing Hamas from a secular/humanist/sentimental viewpoint without due regard for their own clear statements of purpose.

a)See if for a moment you can put on the mindset of a Jew who's family was killed in Auschwitz. He reads the unrenounced HAMAS charter as follows:

"Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it" (Page 1) then further where it says "The last hour will not come unless the Muslims kill the Jews" yada yada.

b) Do you honestly see a 'diplomatic' solution to this? Please read Part 3/Article 11
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP109206

c) Can you see room for negotiation and diplomacy when HAMAS leaders are saying "In spite of all the damage, we are fine and our rockets will continue to fly and do so with ever increasing range" ?

If possible.. stick to the questions raised without deviating this way or that..and when you have responded to these, feel free to bring other dimensions into it.

PS... Polycarp (=BD) appears to be banned. I tried to log on with the usual credentials which failed yesterday, but today (even though I previously requested BD credentials be erased) I managed to get in.
I assume they didn't erase them.

Dear Mac....

you said:

<<For the record, I think that Islam is a ridiculous superstition and that Islamic societies are primitive, however, unlike you, my personal likes and dislikes are irrelevant to any analysis of the ethical issues involved in Israel's relations with the Palestinians.>>

With all due respect...your analysis of Islam does not go far enough.

"Rediculous Superstition"....I quite agree. (but your statement is actually illegal in Vic)But you have not scoped out the inherent danger in it's doctrines nor gone deep enough.

That danger is found in how HAMAS has taken them up, as increasing numbers of the Arab world are, increasingly radicalized.. and the problem is.. it is so easy to take these genocidal and militaristic doctrines up because they are so prominent and central to Islam in my view.
(The existence of large moderate communities in Western minority demographic conditions means nothing..as you see, they become very aggresively vocal on our streets... even today (melb))

Western Muslims generally play the coy one.. by justifying "defensive" Jihad. The problem for the inexerpienced analyst is that they fail to grasp that the Muslim concept of 'defensive' includes any case where Islamic aspirations are thwarted.

The classic historical example is Caliph Omar's invasion of Persia.

No amount of mental gymnastics can detract from the fact that this was an outright invasion..offensive.. aimed at spreading Islamic rule.
He was a 'rightly guided' caliph..so his actions are beyond question.
His actions were also justified by reference to Surah 9:29 which I hope you have read if you are going to seriously discuss the ME problems and Islam in general.

It was his invasion of Israel in 637 which forms the basis of the HAMAS charter too.

Mac and others. The "ethics" are easy to follow; Hamas has declared it's implacable hostility to the Zionist Entity and is dedicated to Israel's destruction. It appears the Gazans accept this goal.

Let's imagine the Israelis withdraw from Gaza, and somehow the rocket attacks are stopped. That the borders reopen and the weapons smuggling is halted. Israel then withdraws it's forces from the West Bank and it's settlers evacuate.

At what point do any of you lefties think Hamas should drop it's stated goals of wiping out the Israelis? Or should that just be left as "unfinished business"?

The outstanding characteristic of a lefty is their belief that mass-extermination of opponents is allowed on political/religious grounds. Carried out by lefties from Lenin through Stalin/Hitler (those great mates) to Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and assorted socialist/religious dreamers like Sadaam, and Hamas, it comes as no surprise that the lefties in this blog demand Israel accept Hamas's stated goals, and actions, as legitimate.

For anyone wondering at how Islam and the left can be so pally; so united in there hatred of Israel, look no further than the eminent WWII Mufti of Jerusalem who first raised his followers against the "Imperialists" in Iraq in 1941,then went off to the Balkans to get local Muslims joining the Waffen SS!! Recall that this bloke met Adolf personally and got his support in preventing any "Zionist Entity" in the ME. Note ...

Hitler issued Order 30,

"The Arab Freedom Movement in the Middle East is our natural ally. In this connection special importance is attached to the liberation of Iraq... I have therefore decided to move forward in the Middle East by supporting Iraq."

At the same time Germany was also "the natural ally" of Stalin, beloved icon of all lefties!! Recall that the ALP was later lead by Doc Evatt (another lefty icon), who took advice directly from Molotov, Stalin's Foreign Minister, the architect of the Hitler/Stalin pact. Got the drift?

Stalin..Hitler..Aussie Lefties..Muftis and Islamic fruitcakes; what a gang! But NOT anti-semetic of course; just fighting for freedom, justice and the...Hamas way. Cheers.

Strange arvo Boaz.
You cant get on as Poly and I couldnt get a thread up on anti-semitism (this Article is a classic on the anti-semitism) without being accused of using it to try and preach.
Wasnt what I was thinking at the time.
Just too many anti-jews on OLO.
Maybe theres a new buttock in the captains chair.
Maybe GY is crossing the floor.
Maybe this comment will disappear too or I will get banned for a week?

"Bigmal, I look forward to the day when Israelis can be as proud of an Arab prime minister as Americans are of Barack Obama."

What a completely stupid comment from you Sir Vivor.

Its infinitely more likely than the reverse, namely a jew being the PM of any Islamic Arab country- and what does that tell you.

Again, I repeat the words of Desmond Tutu,
April 2002:

"People are scared in this country (the US),
to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish
lobby is powerful - very powerful.
Well, so what?
For goodness sake, this is God's world!
We live in a moral universe.
The apartheid government was very powerful,
but today it no longer exists.
Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pinochet, Milosevic,
and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end
they bit the dust. Injustice and oppression will
never prevail. Those who are powerful have to
remember the litmus test that God gives to the
powerful: what is the treatment of the poor, the
hungry, the voiceless?
And on the basis of that, God passes judgement.
We should put out a clarion call to the government
of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people
and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice
is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to
achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you
will be able to live amicably together as sisters and
brothers."

Encouraging hatred either on one side or the other,
should be discouraged. Because no one has a monopoly
on suffering - and being one-eyed does not solve
anything. There is enough hatred in the world. We
certainly don't need more of it on OLO. Lighten up
people, it takes two to have a conflict - there's
two sides to every injustice. However, enough is
enough. It's time for this conflict to stop.

The ball is now in the court of the international
community, and the US. A red-light needs to be
shone brightly. STOP NOW! Enough have died!
We don't need any more corpses.

Much ranting going on still on OLO - at least Israel has now ceased fire unilaterally.

Nice to see Boazy out of his burqha :) FWIW I had a couple of 'Server Error' screens earlier today, but they were fine after a F5 refresh.

I note that punter57 appears to be yet another wingnut who likes to spray wantonly but doesn't respond to refutation from his/her targets. Yawn - OLO's full of them.

Off to the coast for a few days with the kids. Do be nice to each other :)

Bushbred,

The punter's qualifications are a major in applied ignorance. Incidentally, what are your qualifications in history, just curious.

BOAZ_David,

Yes, we can agree on the inadequacies of Islamic civilisation, such as it is. I'm certainly concerned about the threat that accommodation to Moslem demands poses to the liberal democratic state and I have some knowledge of the history of Islamic aggression. However to claim Israel as an ally is a great mistake, the Zionists are fighting their own war against the indigenous Palestinians for their own reasons.

Punter57,

You still don't appear to understand, Israel needs a crisis in Gaza as an excuse not to negotiate. If the Gazans disappeared tomorrow, Israel would find another justification not to return to its 1967 borders. The Zionists will never leave the West Bank unless the US forces them, what are the chances of that occurring? The Holocaust is an explanation for Israel's oppressive behaviour NOT a justification.

Gibo,

I've never seen as much anti-Arabism, I'm shocked and appalled.

Not much can be gained by Israel firing shells into GAZA now that the incursion is into its third week. More innocent lives will be killed without much gain to the Israelis.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/17/robertson.israel.shocking.news.cnn

Games plan for Israel is most likely to assassinate the leaders of HAMAS.

For the first time in many years real peace can be achieved if Palestinians recognize the country of Israel.

Lasting peace is guaranteed if Israel withdraws to pre-1967 border and, Obama and Hilary Clinton of the US helping with the Palestinian/Israeli negotiations.

Hamas has the power to stop the conflict tomorrow by not firing missiles at Israel's civilian population.

Israel can stop the conflict how? By standing back and allowing missiles to kill its people?

While this might be an over simplification I have yet to see anything that contradicts this.

Israel is not attacking any other palestinian area for the simple reason that it is not being attacked.

Hamas in following its dictates that Israel must be destroyed has brought death to its own people and its leaders should be held accountable.

(Philip Tang):'For the first time in many years real peace can be achieved if Palestinians recognize the country of Israel.'

It is not Hamas’ responsibility to recognise the country of Israel, any more than it was Sinn Féin’s or the IRA’s responsibility to recognize Northern Ireland as part of the UK, or the ANC’s responsibility to recognize the Apartheid State in South Africa, or Fretilin’s responsibility to recognise Indonesia’s rule over East Timor.

Yet all these ‘terrorist’ organisations were able to successfully negotiate a peace deal, once their enemies finally recognized that – over the long term - a giant military arsenal is no match for a just cause.

The political leadership of Hamas has said many times that it would accept a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and has offered a long-term truce on that basis. Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, publicly repeated this offer on 8 November, in which he stated:

"Our conflict is not with the Jews; our problem is with the occupation.

Polycarp/BOAZ:
Easy to ask questions in 350 words, not always easy to answer with same limit.

“Adequate diplomatic measures” are, of course, impossible to define in this forum. When I used that phrase, I am taking a very personal view, as I point out “if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued”.

In other forums in which you and I have crossed swords, I have discussed why I am not content with ME negotiations over the last decades. As I have said, it is easy to blame America, and I am afraid I do, not from prejudice but from evidence.

The paradigm that “a government has a responsibility to protect its citizens” is probably supported by most, but this unfortunately does not lead to peace. Far better if governments acted with fairness and common good in mind, and consider citizens of the world.

Recently, US attacked Iraq for two stated reasons: WMD and to make US “safer”.

I contend that the US sees it being in its own interests to ensure that Israel remains strong, and Arabs (Palestinians in particular) remain weak.

Other reasons for my distrust of the US in peace negotiations have been reported in “Gaza distorted through media lens”. Examples of how tensions have been better managed (e.g. Libya, Cypress, Korea, South Africa, Ireland) have also been mentioned.

We won’t have had “adequate diplomatic measures” that satisfy me until we have a lasting peace settlement or we have an honest, disinterested broker who has tried and failed.

ME strategy is more like the Russia-Chechnya. The bully wins. We should be better than that in this stage of our development, though some neanderthals hold us back.

The Rwandan reference is a bit of a red herring, but not completely.

Rwanda does not have the sophisticated government infrastructure that other countries have. Almost by definition, Third World countries cannot manage themselves as well as first. A negotiated solution in Rwanda is even less likely than in ME.

Finding a peaceful conclusion to the ME conflict has been exacerbated by this problem as well.

...tbc

Both sides make serious claims against each other. Both sides claim human rights issues and, certainly, four attacks have been made on United nations facilities and personnel. So there MUST be a formal; investigation with either the International Criminal Court at The Haig running it or some other independent body. Otherwise, the peace process will be stifled

"Our conflict is not with the Jews; our problem is with the occupation." says SJF, quoting Hamas.

But of course if he had half a brain he would google the Hams Charter and after having a quiet read realise what disingenuous nonsense that is.

There is ample evidence to point to the fact that the agenda of most surrounding arab nations is the complete removal of Israel from the area.

Only Egypt and Saudi Arabia ahve any sort of pact with Israel that can be trusted-- and even then.

For those wondering how the cease-fire has been faring, below is a current report. Hamas rockets and Israeli WP shells are easy for journos to spot, from the periphery. What has happened, may still be happening on the ground in Gaza will, I hope, be thoroughly investigated.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10210.shtml

“ … the scene of destruction of neighborhoods suggests that wide-scaled home demolitions were systematically conducted by the IOF.

Al Mezan Center's field workers reported that entire urban blocks have disappeared in the areas of Ezbet Abed-Rabu, al-Salatin, al-Atatra, al-Israa in North Gaza District, and al-Kashif and al-Rayis Hills and the eastern suburbs of Gaza City. As of 2pm, medical teams had found 62 corpses of people under the rubble of houses, or rubble moved by Israeli bulldozers. Among them were eight children and 10 women. It is not known yet whether those were buried under the rubble alive or dead.

According to Al Mezan Center's monitoring, the IOF has breached the unilaterally declared ceasefire. Shooting and shelling from artillery batteries, tanks and naval vessels have occurred in various areas throughout the day. Israeli aircraft also launched raids on open areas. At 10:30am, Israeli troops opened fire at civilians who were trying to reach their homes in Khuzaa village, east of Khan Younis. A man, 22-year-old Mahir Abu Irjila, was killed as a result. The victim and his family had evacuated their house and stayed in a UN shelter.

http://www.mezan.org/site_en/press_room/press_detail.php?id=958

I am wondering whether bigmal has read that excellent historical romance, “Gone with the Wind”. The destruction of Atlanta is well dramatised, and the military and economic oppression of the former Confederate states, which followed the American Civil War, is there for anyone to read about. It is no surprise to me that Georgia included the Confederate flag in its state flag right into the 21st century, and the Confederate stars and bars are still to be found as part of the Mississippi state flag.
I hope that Israel can avoid repeating this kind of post-war stupidity and cruelty.

…continued from 19 January 2009 9:28:46 AM

Arafat was never a leader of a united nation. He was ever juggling the needs of the disparate and frequently changing groups which made up the PLO.

I agree that “Hamas is the product of generations of abuse and frustration by Israel against Palestinians.” As the PLO is splintered more and more, the desperados become more desperate, and though they see themselves as patriots, others see them as terrorists.

The steps to peace are not easy to plan, but if we can stop the killing and concentrate on negotiation, we are at least on the way. While there is killing, we are going backwards. The brokers can include Hamas in negotiations (not talking to them is ludicrous) with Fatah, and if Hamas won’t make any concessions, then it could well be possible to marginalise them. They will soon lose support. Other Arab nations hate Israel but have learned that they like peace more.

As with the Climate Change conference in Bali, the US must be told to "get out of the way." Or will Obama make the difference, the change we can believe in?

As disclosed in previous posts in the “Gaza distorted through media lens” topic, I have visited concentration camps, Ann Franke house etc and I do respect the view of the “Jew who’s (sic) family was killed in Auschwitz”, and I can only guess the pain of the father in Gaza whose (note spelling!) children were “collateral damage”.

You are hung up on Hamas charter. All in these forums seem to agree that it is odious, yet we try to encourage peace in the ME other than by brutal militarism. Hamas charter is part of the challenge.

I do view things from a secular /humanist viewpoint, but hardly sentimental. Humanism: "variety of ethical theory and practice that emphasizes reason, scientific inquiry, and human fulfillment in the natural world and often rejects the importance of belief in God."

Where is your problem, Polycarp? With “reason”?

I have answered your post as well as I can be bothered.

"What I consider to be terrorists is your freedom-fighters, and my freedom-fighters is what you consider to be terrorists."

After watching the 5 part series of "The Anglo-Jewish War" in youtube it is obvious that the Zionist movement began as a terrorist organisation led by Menachem Begin (leader of the Irgun). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYHoK54w2kg&feature=related

The Irgun committed acts of terrorism through random bombing, killing British troops and destroying Arab villages. Begin was to be the prime minister of Israel in 1977 and winner of the Nobel peace price 1979.

The same can be said of Arafat who in 1994 received the Nobel Peace Prize.

It is difficult to condemn the actions of the two men, or freedom-fighters like them because they were fighting for the very survival of the group which they represent.

HAMAS on the other hand are Islamists supported by Iran, certain groups in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Bngladesh, Afghanistan and those who aspire to setting up the a world caliphate. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6942688.stm

These Islamists are causing chaos, mayhem and killing in places like south Thailand, Mindanao Philippines, Kashmir and in Gaza.

Currently, Islamists are blowing up schools for girls, throwing acid on their faces and threatening the lives of teachers and students because they don’t believe girls should be educated. http://southasia.oneworld.net/todaysheadlines/taliban-bans-girls-education-in-northwest-pakistan

http://www.startribune.com/world/37791079.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUss

In fighting Islamists one should bomb their mosques, religious schools, assassinate their leaders and throw acid on the faces of those who attend their mosques. This is what they are doing to school girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It’s good to let them taste their own medicine.

Thank you for dusting off the Domino Theory, dear Phillip Tang.

Fortunately, you are as inconsequential as I am.

The unfortunate aspect is that you are clearly swayed by a theory which can be seen from a Moslem perspective as well. Many devout Moslems could justifiably argue that their own lands are falling one after the other, as the US and its allies wield their influence by force and subterfuge.

I wonder about the validity of this domino theory, this model, beyond its virulence as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

One clear and present danger lies it its ability spark hatred and vilification - phrases such as:

"In fighting Islamists one should bomb their mosques, religious schools, assassinate their leaders and throw acid on the faces of those who attend their mosques. This is what they are doing to school girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It’s good to let them taste their own medicine."

Philip, if you feel so strongly about this, perhaps you could join the IDF, or if that's out of the question, become a mercenary soldier, warring against "Militant Islam" in Iraq or some other theatre. Given the right opportunity, you could act on your own impulses and add to the carnage, or at least the cruelty.

(bigmal): ‘But of course if [SJF] had half a brain he would google the Hams Charter and after having a quiet read realise what disingenuous nonsense that is.’

To me, the real disingenuous nonsense is to be found in the 100s of websites that use cherry-picked quotes from the Charter to portray Hamas as an organisation purely devoted to destroying Israel and killing every Jew in existence.

Crucial to understanding the anti-Jew feeling of some aspects of the Hamas Charter is the tragic context in which it was written - the aftermath of the first Intifida of 1987. This was a largely peaceful resistance movement comprising mass protests, general strikes, boycotts and civil disobedience – which was brutally put down by the Israeli military, leaving thousands of Palestinian youths dead.

In light of these events, the Charter is surprisingly restrained in its hatred. In light of these last few weeks, some of its rhetoric is chillingly real:

‘The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people's livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor. In their horrible actions they mistreat people like the most horrendous war criminals.’ (Article 20)

‘The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for "states built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection." (Article 31)

‘[Hamas] values every kind word, every devoted effort and every commendable endeavor. It closes the door before marginal quarrels, it does not heed rumors and biased statements, and it is aware of the right of self-defense.’ (Article 25)

… As is the United Nations Charter, Article 51 (6):

‘The right to resist finds application within the framework of the right of legitimate defense because "a state which forcibly subjugates a people to colonial or alien domination is committing an unlawful act as defined by international law, and the subject people, in the exercise of its inherent right of self-defense, may fight to defend and attain its right to self-determination.

Philip Tang, I will probably kick myself for wasting this opportunity to post. Polycarp will probably come back with some more straw man arguments I will have to refute, and I will find myself without the opportunity. Or maybe Polycarp has been banned in his new guise as well.

But for now, let me take issue with you.

"It’s good to let them taste their own medicine", you say. This, and other sections of your post shows you up to be one of those "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" type of people.

Whilst not exactly neanderthal, it is pretty old fashioned and one would hope out of date and inappropriate in this day and age.

Has the "Enlightenment" completely passed you by?

SJF, It doesnt matter what accomodating and soft words etc, that Hamas also says in the Charter, the plain unalterable fact is that their venonmous hatred and specific intentions are given very clear expression.

One doesnt cancel the other out.

But what is really disturbung is the extent to which most this venom, and blatant anti semiticism in the Charter, has it its origins in the actual words and phrases of the Koran itself.

Until Islam disavows its anti semitic roots and propensity to violence against the Kuffars, and gives up on this idiot notion that any land previously captured by the forces of Islam must forever remain Islamic (even going back to the 7th century) then there is no solution.

Bigmal

'... the plain unalterable fact is that [the Hamas Charter's] venonmous hatred and specific intentions are given very clear expression./One doesnt cancel the other out.'

I don't know about that. These might ...

Yossef Weitz (1940): “The Arabs should go!”

David Ben-Gurion (1948): "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

Ariel Sharon (1998): "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonization or Jewish state without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."

Ehert Olmert (2006): "I believed and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land."

These quotes are to be found at the UK media watchdog site, Media Lens, which also contains a list of citations for their origins:

http://www.medialens.org/alerts/index.php ('An eye for an eyelash: The Gaza massacre Parts I & II)

SJF I appreciate your reference to the medialens site. That is a good one.Thanks.

But I still think there is a big difference between what has been said by the Israelis and others over time, and what is embedded in the Koran.

Ohlmerts et al views will die out and amount to nothing, but the Koranic basis will go on forever with increasing numbers of mad mullahs making sure that their interpretation of the ummah etc is pressed with ever increasing ferocity.

Ohlmerts et al statements dont carry the supposed impramata of being the immutable word of some deity.

Dont forget also that these people are so screwed up they believe that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is true, and not a work of fiction created in about 1895 --it even rates a mention in the Hamas charter for gods sake

Bigmal,

You may very well be right; I believe you are wrong. I heard today that New Hampshire still has the death penalty on its books, and its last execution was in 1939.

The ALP had the nationalisation of banks on its platform for many years, but it was not really serious after 1951.

I am sure there are better examples (I know these are not especially good).

I know that Hamas is a relatively recent “invention” and I don’t know enough about Islamic fundamentalists of, say, one hundred years ago to know if they also preached death to those of different faiths.

The CIA used to go round killing anyone they did not like; the Christian fundamentalist Pat Robertson thinks US should kill Hugo Chavez. It’s not written down in a charter, and he is only a leader of some sort of fundamentalist group, but thankfully wiser heads prevailed.

If you treat your neighbour properly, he is unlikely to want to kill you, no matter what his or your religion. We have never treated Hamas properly.

It is rather arrogant of us decide to kill them all because they are the ones that are “bad”.

The poor taste joke about providing the Palestinians with more stones to throw at their antagonists' tanks gets another run.

Mal, I admit, the above is not a perfectly reasoned argument which puts the issue at rest. I cannot say categorically that I am right and you are wrong.

Have a look at the history of “these people”, look at the conditions that they live under, look at who they see is their enemy, and wonder why THEY are “screwed up”.

I think there are enough good arguments put forward by many of the OLO posters for you to realise that it is not a black and white issue.

Ask yourself why Islamic fundamentalism is such a “problem” now. Is it perhaps because of the way Palestinians have been treated since 1948 and before? And why is Christian fundamentalism, the driver of Republican America, so strong in the second half of the 20th century?

Despite Israel's democratic ideals and pretensions, it suffers a fatal flaw.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

"Israeli demographic policy
“As Israel's continued existence as a "Jewish State" relies upon maintenance of a Jewish demographic majority, Israeli demographers, politicians and bureaucrats have treated Jewish population growth promotion as a central question in their research and policymaking. Non-Jewish population growth and immigration is regarded as a threat to the Jewish demographic majority and to Israel's security, as detailed in the Koenig Memorandum."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koenig_Memorandum

(snip)

"During the 1970s about 163,000 people immigrated to Israel from the USSR. Later Ariel Sharon, in his capacity as Minister of Housing & Construction and member of the Ministerial Committee for Immigration & Absorption, launched an unprecedented large-scale construction effort to accommodate the new Russian population in Israel so as to facilitate their smooth integration and encourage further Jewish immigration as an ongoing means of increasing the Jewish population of Israel.[21]"

&c

Between 1990 & 2000, about 816,000 migrants arrived from former USSR states. That's about 12% of the current Israeli population of 7.1 million.
(http://www.cbs.gov.il/shnaton53/shnatone53.htm)

Israel's constitution enshrines privileges to a specific ethnic group at the expense of others. Until that ends, Israel is part democracy and part ethnocracy.

Israel's defenders need to keep in mind that, ideally, democracies are secular states.

To quote Abraham Lincoln, from his Gettysberg Address,

"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

If Israelis are unable to move on from their ethnocracy, and offer genuine equity to their Arab citizens, then perhaps they can work meaningfully toward toward recognition and genuine co-operation with Palestine.

I'm hoping that the people of Gaza have not died in vain.