Philip Tang

Thank you for answering the challenge. At least you can support what you said, though I would not be very confident of the source. I am not dogmatic enough to say it is wrong, though I am more confident in my source than yours.

Do you think the US landed on the moon, or are those moon shots taken in a studio somewhere? Was Kennedy assassinated by the CIA? It is very easy to believe what you want to believe, and I would suggest that if you take the site you cited as your only or main source, you should be very careful citing it with confidence, and certainly not as an unquestionable fact.

Punter, many have accused me as being a “leftie”, though I am not sure what it means. I think it means different things to different people.

But I am certainly very critical of Hamas. I am very critical of all religions. I am very critical of anybody or any nation that resorts to violence, including brutal militarism, to resolve conflict if I consider adequate diplomatic processes have not been first pursued. So what is your point?

Bigmal, an interesting article, but does not even mention “election”, so is irrelevant to Philip Tang’s response to me. The article comes from a site whose aim “to define and promote American interests in the Middle East”. It should be read, in the interests of reading different viewpoints, but it should be read with care. You would not want to be reading rightwing propaganda now, would you?

None of this has been terribly relevant as to the proposal that “Israel has really overstepped the line”, unless you believe, like our lovable friend Polycarp that killing is the only way.

punter57,

The reason that the Israelis returned Sinai to Egypt was simple strategic calculations, they don't want Sinai, unlike the West Bank which is an essential part of the Zionist fantasy. You haven't responded to my comment in regard to the expansion of the "settlements" there.

Israel's invasion of Gaza is an example of the practice of collective punishment, the Lidice solution, used by brutal occupiers throughout history, "you kill one we'll kill 100".

Leigh& punter57,

A pause for reflection, without the efforts of "lefties" we would all still be in the 16th century without democracy,science, industrial civilization and the secular state. Only the small aristocratic percentage of the population would have any political power at all. Thank the Left for all the rights and privileges you enjoy today. The next Leftist project should be to improve the collective IQ of the partisans of the Right, which will, of course,automatically convert them all into social democrats.

"You would not want to be reading rightwing propaganda now, would you?

Certainly not.

But at least my reference should indicate to Haigh and others that there is lot more to it, than his simplistic and unfounded assertions.

I hope he bothers to do more homework/investigation before venturing forth next time.

Bigmal,

Blind Freddy can "see there is a lot more to it". But then, Blind Freddy's optic nerves have yet to be rotted away by terminal smugness.

Your view of the conflict bears about the same level of sophistication as the interviewees on the video below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQJOX4sUq30

An accompanying (left wing) article can be found at:
http://www.alternet.org/story/119372/pro-israel_rally_attended_by_big-time_ny_dems_descends_into_calls_for_'wiping_out'_palestinians

noting that
" ... [New York Governer] Paterson highlighted the anti-Semitism that has followed in the wake of Israel’s attack on Gaza, highlighting the beating of a teen-age girl in France. “This kind of anger and hatred spreads like a disease,” Paterson said, “and one thing I've always pointed out is there's no place for hate in the Empire State.”

But hatred was plentiful at the rally Paterson addressed. Right in front of the stage, a man held a banner reading, “Islam Is A Death Cult.” Rally attendees described the people of Gaza to me as a “cancer,” called for Israel to “wipe them all out,” insisting, “They are forcing us to kill their children in order to defend our own children.” A young woman told me, “Those who die are suffering God’s wrath.” “They are not distinguishing between civilians and military, so why should we?” said a member of the group of messianic Orthodox Jewish Chabad-Lubavitch group that flocked to the rally."

Bigmal, I look forward to the day when Israelis can be as proud of an Arab prime minister as Americans are of Barack Obama.

Punter, from one with a strong historical knowledge, one has to stay like a good football umpire straight down the centre, which means that the Israelies since they were thankfully saved from bestial Nazi death camps, have become somewhat like the Nazis themselves, making me somewhat sympathetic with the Islamic side, not that one has to like them, but like a good umpire try to stick to rules that are being badly broken by both sides.

Therefore, if one does try to be sympathetic, from a historian's point of view, one should be incllined to treat the Arabs somewhat like our Aborigines, treat them more kindly than the side that is getting most of the mercenary colonial-style help, as Israel is getting from America.

Regards, BB, Buntine, WA.

OK. When blokes like mac completely ignore that Sinai was handed back to Egypt as part of a peace deal..you know where you stand. Those scheming Jews are always wrong or.....well, scheming.

The point is that we (bloggers) have our emotional allegiances as well as our "rational" ones. That's why some are totally prejudiced and others only partly so.

I've lived and worked in a number of Arab and muslim nations. I've known many Muslims in Australia and also overseas in places where we both were foreigners. I've also been to Israel and stayed with friends there (I'm not Jewish).

My observation is that I'm yet to meet any Muslim I could consider a friend (99% were males of course) and that I have not the slightest empathy with any of them either. To discuss politics or religion or social issues or world affairs was impossible. The slightest disagreement, and anger (or contempt) was their response (hundreds of individuals remember). Without exception they had a huge sense of superiority (mixed with inferiority!). They, quite literally, could barely tolerate an infidel. I wish it had been different but it wasn't.

On the other hand I've met plenty of Israelis, and other Jews, with whom rational conversation on any subject was possible. This is not to say I haven't disliked quite a few..some intensely.

So what am I saying? Simple; I sympathize with Israel because I prefer freedom of expression..of discussion..of life in general. I know first-hand that most Arabs and Muslims do not accept this. I am also saying I would prefer Arabs and Muslims to be fair-minded and free rather tha Israel to become a hellhole of repression like most of it's neighbours.

Hamas wants a compliant horde of cowed followers, and an exterminated Israel. Lefties want this too; otherwise why aren't they condemning Hamas (they can criticize Israel as well, of course)? Israel does NOT want it so they are fighting. Pretty simple, eh?