kactuz, are you really asking such questions in good faith? is anything i write going to make one iota of difference to your paranoid hatred? not a chance. which makes replying to you an exercise in futility. but it's a slow news day, so what the hell ...

yes, i am saying that religious texts and religious history are a very poor guide to current religious practice. and yes, many followers of said religions will likely disagree with me. that doesn't change the truth of what i am saying.

the christian texts have been substantially the same for 2000 years, the old testament much longer. but christian history has hardly been a constant.

it was once perfectly possible to be a good christian and to own slaves. or to drown and burn people suspected of witchcraft. or to march off to the middle east to slaughter muslims. these were all fine christian acts, sanctioned my the highest, most authoritative members of the christian churches.

how was such barbarism sanctioned? by reference to the same holy texts which have been used for thousands of years, and are used now.

the christian texts have remained the same. christian history has been anything but constant. how can you possibly maintain that either the texts or the history is a reliable guide to current christian practice?

and why do you think your cartoon condemnation of islam has any more validity? why do you think cherry-picking the worst of the koran and islamic history gives you license to ignore the current existence of millions of loving, peaceful muslims.

yes, there are awful things in the koran, and some msulims may struggle to admit that as much as some christians struggle with biblical barbarism. but i don't care how they struggle with the contradictions in their texts. i care what they do.

kactuz, the danger isn't islam, the danger is fundamentalism. and the danger is tribalism, as exemplified by your ridiculous and rabid denunciation of muslims everywhere.

Bushbasher weites
'actuz, the danger isn't islam, the danger is fundamentalism.'

Too right. Ask the 80000 unborn babies that are murdered each year and if they could you would hear that fundamentalist secularism is the most dangerous of the lot.

KactuZ: " ... so what you are saying (2.253) is that Allah says the fighting and disunity proves Christans/Jews wrong. Hahaha. Muslims never fight each other, do they? Welcome to our world. ... "

No, that is not what "I" am saying. Muhammad allegedly spoke it (remembering that he was illiterate) and it was remembered by oral tradition and scratched into bones and later parchment etc etc At a glance, I wld interpret that 2.253 that Muslims 1, are also into JC and 2 the Islamic texts also acknowledge the God given grant of "Free Will," "Freedom of Thought" and "Freedom of Expression."

I also note and again I am no expert, but the monotheistic God concept of Judaism, Christianity and Islam all dates back historically to the same "character." It may even go back as far as *Akhenaton" the Egyptian Phaeroh with titties ;-) and mayhaps in the yet to be discovered archaeological record even earlier still.

It is a question of interpretation of course, assuming we even still have any reliable copies after the millenia of political perversion and re-writes.

" ... Also, when you quote 5:32 please quote whole verse. Is the verse about Muslims? For Muslims? What about the exception clause? Remember I know the Quran. This is distorted, dishonest use. ... "

That's all there is in my copy. Perhaps we have different versions, which of course is part of the problem is it not? And of course, U seem to see not that which refutes the foundation of yr argument. In pure Islam, there is not distinguishment between Prophets or peoples.

The inconsistencies that u point to and blame on "Islam" are very likely the bastardisations. I wld refer yr attention to the *Satanic Verses* Even if the core originally was inspired by *Heaven,* after the people made a goldern calf out of the Prophet, he probably talked a lot of sh!t too. And do pls remember, early Muslims were also persecuted.

and this *KactuZ*

[2.87]
And most certainly We gave Moses the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Jeshua, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the *Holy Spirit*
What?! whenever then an aopstle came to you with that which your Souls did not desire, you were insolent, so you called some liars and some you slew.

Of course, "they" all accuse one another of bastardising the TXTs.

I am not an expert, but speaking more than one language, I note that the cohesion in the following is not the same as the "cool" earlier bits I have quoted. I submit this for the scrutiny of our peers and colleagues here present.

[4.171]
O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, *Jeshua* son of *Marium* is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which he communicated to Marium and a Spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be it from his glory that he should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is his, and Allah is sufficient for a protector.

In the Christian tradition that I learnt but a little of, the Trinity was never meant to mean 3 Gods but rather:

1. The Son - The Divine made manifest in the individual.
[Yes that means all of us]

2. The Father - the whole of everything, corporeal and non-corporeal and then some - "The sum of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

3. The Holy Spirit - that which binds us all together, 1 to another.

This is not a religious conflict in origin but rather 2 opposing camps squabbling over depleted resource who at times use bastardised religious clap trap to inflame the superstitious and ignorant for self serving political ends.

...Adam...

Regarding an article on BBC: Muslims' free speech threatened

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7718715.stm

Quote: Murray... said Muslims found it increasingly difficult to criticise elements of their faith or culture without fear of reprisal. In a free society, no belief or set of values should remain beyond open criticism. Unless Muslims are allowed to discuss their religion without fear of attack there can be no chance of reform or genuine freedom of conscience within Islam.

So who is attacking Muslims? Muslims! That is the problem. One cannot criticize Islam because either Muslims or people like Matheson and even here at OLO judge it immoral. By doing this they/you contribute your fair share to the hate, intimidation and violence and manifest support for Islamic intolerance.

I am not going to be nice about this. Some people here have not answered a simple question I asked. You have made excuses for a brutal ideology that has brought sorrow to millions and continues to seek world domination and the end of our freedoms. You have dismissed any criticism of the ideology with one-sided arguements and petty excuses. You ignore Islams history and misquote its scriptures. You, by your words and deeds, are little different from the men in that stadium in Somalia watching a little girl get stoned.
Worst of all, you are proud of yourselves because you are "tolerant" and "respectful of different cultures."

Yes, I ask these questions in good faith. I do this because Muslims and their friends need someone to ask them, for their own good. I think our freedoms are worth standing up for and equal rights should apply to all.

BushB and Bbred, Dreamon and others. I am not mad at you, just sad. I think the future will not be nice because we appease evil and ignore issues in the name of political correctness. I could be wrong. I hope I am. But what if... Anyway, somebody has say things that need saying.

Well, thats it... (my 350 words are gone). I'll see if I can do one last post later. You guys take care.

Old man kactuz

The source of all these problems is not the actual religions themselves because they are all capable of inspiring misery and violence.

The universal social problem is Religious Intolerance - both within and outside of each religion and the universal personal failing is hypocrisy.