horus, kactuz's challenge is fair but absurdly trivial. if you and kactuz cannot find muslims who condemn violence performed in the name of islam then it is because you choose to not see.

Over the last fifteen years, I have worked with several Muslims, a few Hindus, a Sihk and a number of Jews.

All of these people are only interested in getting on with their lives and providing a better life for themselves and their families and being productive members of the community.

Without exception - none are even remotely interested in this sort of debate. It had been totally irrelevant to them in the past except that the suspicion of some sort of deep-seated religious hatred conspiracy is being more and more frequently raised around them.

It is not they who are obsessed with this stuff.

Unlike some of the posters to this sort of site, they don't waste their time peering into obscure religious (and quasi-religious) tracts looking for reasons to justify themselves. The Muslims in particular also don't feel obliged to personally condemn every single action taken by others around the world as if they were done all on their behalf because -

1. It's not true and
2. Once started, it would never end.

The only thing they feel is growing resentment with the way they are becoming typecast as supporters of some kind of international evil because there is absolutely nothing they can do to overcome it.

Some have wives who have suffered public abuse (and violence) simply because they choose to wear a headscarf. Others have school children who are punished because of their name or their heritage.

I can't speak for "every Muslim in the world" but can only go by the experience of those people I know personally.

I think that evidence of worldwide adherence of all these sinister plots needs to be provided first - otherwise it's also fair to suggest that since the Bible advocates such matters as slavery and oppression, the KKK is typical of "the worldwide Christian community".

Bush, to me "shared" means mutual self-criticism (Islam and West) and mutual change. In case you didn't notice, the point was that Muslims never consider their own actions and so never change. I asked you to provide websites in which they discuss difficult issues.

Yes, Wobbles, Muslims worldwide hate the West (yes, there's hyperbole there!). In case you don't know, the Quran says non-believers are lower than animals in sight of allah and they are to fight us until we submit. Do you think that nonMuslims have equal rights in Islamic societies? Don't blame discrimination in Islamic societies on "a few extremists" because there is a broad consensus supporting it. Why do you consider it "bigotry" to speak out against hate, violence and discrimination? Have you actually read Quran and hadith?

As Horus pointed out, I ask important questions about life, liberty and violence but Bush and Wobbles want us to hold hands and sing Kumbayah. Some people dont just dig a hole and stick their head in it, they bury their whole body and morals also.

Patience and peace are virtues, but apathy in the face of evil is not.

Bush, I didnt ask you to "find muslims who condemn violence in the name of islam". I asked you to show me Muslims that condemn the hate and violence in the Quran and the life of Mohammad.

I asked a question about if a people that loved and respected a man that approved of a pregnant woman being split open and killed for criticizing him could be trusted. It was not a difficult question but I got no answer. That tells one a lot about the morals of Muslums and those who defend them.

There will be reactions to Islamic extremism and those groups will gain credibilty because "liberals" like Matheson are dishonest. By doing this they make the extreme right appear to be the only honest people willing to speak out against evils of Islam. Because they will not challenge Islam these people contribute to the violence that is to come. The future will not be nice.

Kactuz

NO CHEAP DIRTY PROPAGANDA!

Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Pope, Muslim Leaders Condemn Religious Violence
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=692-jqcjZ-o&feature=channel

The hindu- Muslim leaders condemn violence
http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/03/01/stories/2002030103211300.htm

Church Times Christians and Muslims condemn violence
http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=64935

Muslim clerics to hold anti-terror rally in Delhi
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/may/21rajblast1.htm

A sampling of fatwas and other statements by Muslim
individuals and groups condemning terrorist attacks:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm

Do Muslims Ever Condemn Terrorist Attacks? Condemnation of Terrorism in the name of Islam
http://baheyeldin.com/terrorism/do-muslims-ever-condemn-terrorist-attacks.html

The leaders, representing Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish and Muslim traditions condemn faith-based violent acts
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2007/Jul/07/religious-leaders-condemn-faith-based-violent/

Islam is Not the Source of Terrorism, But its Solution
http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/mainarticle.html

Islam Online French Fatwa Prohibits Rioting, Urges Calm
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-11/07/article01.shtml

MPAC Supports Fatwa Against Terrorism
http://www.mpac.org/article.php?id=70

Fatwa Issued Against Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaida
http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/09/22/reminder-fatwa-issued-against-osama-bin-laden/

Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

kactuz, bushbasher here. i doubt that bushbred is willing to enter your filthy pigsty.

1) what you wrote was "Now, please tell me where I can find Muslims that will condemn Islamic hate and violence".

2) i responded (to horus) that it is ridiculously easy to find "muslims who condemn violence performed in the name of islam".

3) you then wrote "I didnt ask you to find muslims who condemn violence in the name of islam".

the only difference between what you asked and how i responded was my conscious change of "islamic" to "in the name of islam". does the distinction matter? yes, i think it does, but not for the request you made. the fact is, you did ask for muslims who condemn this violence, and it was a stupidly trivial request.

as for islamic text and history as a guide to current islamic beliefs and attitudes and behaviour? it makes as much sense as using christian text and history as a guide to current christian beliefs and attitudes. don't believe me? just ask your slave. or maybe ask that witch you just dunked in the pond. or, you could ask them knights once they return from their latest crusade.

finally, i'll point out that your expression "muslims worldwide hate the west" is meaningless. your condemnation of millions of muslims as a homogeneous group is fictitious, hateful nonsense.

"I have worked with Muslims, a few Hindus, a Sihk and a number of Jews"

Ok, Wobbles, stop it right there. Obviously you dont work in Islamic society. FYI, Hindus, Sihks and Jews are not exactly welcome in Muslim countries. You generalize your experience in a Western Society; Islamic societies are not exactly the place to find other religions living side-by-side gracefully. If you lived in an islamic society, your friends would act like other Muslims (ie, aagainst freedom and equality as we know it).

You say Muslims arent obsessed with "this stuff," which indicates that they don't care what their religion teaches and does or what other Muslims do. I am not obcessed either, but I take a few hours each week to speak up for those who have no voice. No, you don't abuse women, even if that is nothing compared to what your dear muslim friends do in the name of their religion and prophet:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/11/2008111201216476354.html
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/10/31-5

or maybe this had nothing to do with Islam. What to you think?

Continuing... I wouldnt say the Quran and hadith are "obscure religious (quasi-religious) tracts". Instead, Muslims consider them the perfect words of their god. Because of the content of those, the little girl died a terrible death. Muslims don't care, and obviously you don't either.

I never ask Muslims to just condemn the actions of other Muslims. That is unjust, stupid, nonproductive. A person is not responsible for other peoples actions. What I do ask them is to condemn the hate and violence their religions teaches, -- or at least question it. That, I believe, is fair. That, they refuse to do.

It also must be said that if Muslims and our leaders would debate these important issues, I wouldn't feel the need to to be a pain in the rear to certain people here at OLO and other places. Maybe they, like you, don't think these questions are relevant. Maybe discrimination, suffering and death are trivial things. Maybe the brutal murder of a little girl in the name of a religion is OK with some people.

Kactuz