I have your e-address now KT. I will be in touch.

(Ooooooooooohhhh! The shame of it, I am going over to the dark side!!)

Sheesh.

As I mentioned in another post, Boaz, you still haven't grasped the blindingly obvious.

>>once again we find ourselves up against the problem of your lack of knowledge and understanding about how faith communities work.<<

"Faith communities"? Good grief.

I have no interest in "faith communities", Boaz, I am concerned about real life, not in the world of "faith communities".

What exactly is a "faith community" anyway? Is it another word for a bunch of religionists who agree on a specific definition of ancient texts?

How many, exactly of these "faith communities" exist? Or even roughly.

How many of them believe that they have reached a "correct" definition of those ancient texts?

How many of the actually have reached a correct definition?

Religion is just another method by which human beings have chosen to exert power over others. And where there is power, so often is there also fear and hate.

Faith communities? A pox on the lot of them.

KatyO, I have been away interstate for a while. I just had a look and the question that I could find was in your post of 10:40 am on 13 May. The answer is no, I have never called on anyone to breach the (sedition) law. Bronwyn's article initially did not state that I had denied the allegation publicly. Someone later changed it after my protest, and no, I did not call on anyone to penalise homosexual activities, in fact I made it clear that penal religious law cannot be applied in the modern world. The article says "activists" reported it, as far as I am aware, it was only one activist from a theater full of people, none of whom seems to have this misunderstanding.

Boaz, I am not accorded enough space to answer all your questions. Because of OLO policy I could only post one comment on Tuesday before I had to fly off . I only just had a window of opportunity now. However, I have given you a broad answer hoping that your own knowledge would fill in the gaps in a fair manner. You have not done that and I am afraid that I may have given you too much benefit of the doubt.

Whoever raised the issue of Aisha, you should read the book about her by Prof. Mumtaz Moin (a woman) which puts her age at approximately 18 at the time of marriage. I have answered this elsewhere in more detail. She was engaged to someone else who dumped her because she had become Muslim along with most of her family. The prophet Muhammad, as the kindest of human hearts consoled her by proposing to marry her, when her parents decided that she was ready the marriage took place according to the customs of the day. She survived the prophet by over forty years and was one of the greatest teachers of Islam.

Boaz, if you can convince ACA or TT to provide their own crew, I will consider it, you are not editing me with your biases!

With love

Well that's a somewhat different interpretation of the venerable text than Boazy's 'Muslims are paedophiles because of Sura XX bla bla', isn't it?

Of course the Islamophobes will now go into another feeding frenzy, but for me, Keysar Trad's response seems to be a polite exposition of the kind of rationalisation of ancient texts that allow them to maintain meaning and relevance to so many members of what I suppose Boazy would call "faith communities" in the contemporary world. Indeed, that is precisely the same intellectual game that Christians play with themselves - not to mention all the other communities of the credulous.

The Islamophobes might do well to follow the examples of those exemplary Muslims like those who are brave enough to publish their ideas and make comments in mainstream forums like OLO. To those of us who aren't paranoid about Islam nor antagonistic to Muslims, it seems like the poor buggers are damned if they articulate themselves reasonably and politely, and damned if they don't.

And it's nothing to do with being 'Left' or 'Right' that prompts that observation. It's about a 'fair go' - which I understood was a central Aussie value.

To the Anti-Muslim fundies out there:
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matthew 7:3

The Holy Bible (KJV) says (some paraphrased for brevity):

Ruth COHABITS with Boaz in the barn. RUTH 3&4 (If you have a bible, please read both of these short chapters, you can get them online at:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Ruth+3&book_id=8&version1=9&tp=4&c=3
and
http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults2.php?passage1=Ruth+4&book_id=8&version1=9&tp=4&c=4)

Birth of females a DOUBLE pollution LEVITICUS 12:1,2,5

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD. DEUTRONOMY 23:2

And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts EXODUS 33:23

I make peace, and CREATE EVIL ISAIAH 45:7

But the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and AN EVIL SPIRIT from the Lord troubled him. I SAMUEL 16:14

And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should BELIEVE A LIE. 2 THESSALONIANS 2:11

all these things are done in parables. That seeing they may see, and NOT perceive; and hearing they may hear, and NOT understand, LEST at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven MARK 4: 12

Can any of the Anti-Muslim fundies tell the readers who said the following, about whom and why?

Ye hypocrites MATTHEW 23:13
Ye wicked and adulterous generation MATTHEW 12:39
Ye whited sepulchres MATTHEW 23: 27
Ye generation of vipers MATTHEW 23:33

I am not writing any of this to denigrate the Bible, on the contrary, I have a great deal of respect for the Bible. The purpose in these quotes is to illustrate to the readers that for every criticism the fundies can make of Islam, I can give them similar if not more damning quotes from the Bible itself. In a sense, I am agreeing with Pericles and Bushbasher and assisting the argument with real quotes in context from the Bible.

Stay tuned because there is more, much more, but for later posts.

Love and best wishes

*smile*

gooood GRIEF..

GINXy.. ur 1st... mate.. the Dark side already had you in its clutches longgg ago :) "I confess my latent violence" wasn't it?

PERICLES you next.. wellll.. of all the cowardly retreats I've seen, that was a classic. I hope ALL who read your escapist, fleeing last post will observe what you did... er..what you did NOT do!
I raised a specific issue.. "Surah 9:29 and Hadith Bukhari which uses that verse to justify/explain an invasion"

All you did is attack 'me' rather than look at the issue itself. Shame.

Yet you have the incredible lack of integrity to just do an ad hominem and blame me for the 'blindingly obvious' ?
It will take you quite a while to recover any creditibilty on this one P.
You do notice don't you, that Kaysar has responded with 'chapter and verse' ad infinitum....do u?

KAYSAR.. on Ayesha :) ooohh u are inDEED a rascal.... you KNOW that your explanation is a result of convoluted and indirect reasoning, rather than the following DIRECTLY from your hadith.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.234
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:

Narrated 'Aisha:

That the Prophet said to her, "You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64:

Narrated 'Aisha:

<<that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).>>

Readers can decide for themselves here who is giving 'spin' and the truth :) err..Notice it is..none other than...AISHA herself who is saying this. I think they call that 'from the horses mouth'....

PS..I didn't MENtion Aisha, but Al-Mughira.

Love to you all:)