thanks to people above for some great posts. In particular, thank-you bboy for nailing preston's smug disingenuousness.

boaz, your suggestion that the only alternatives are a god-inspired morality or nihilism is unsupported, and incredibly offensive, twaddle. i think you should have a go responding to csteele's excellent post. see if you can do better than runner.

gp, i don't think it makes any sense to ask why we should be moral. morality, whatever its source, carries its own "should".

re the determinism thing, i think matilda is isolating the real issue, how the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts. so, i don't think we need to debate morality or meaning, it's enough to discuss consciousness. how does a bunch of atoms get to think? in particular, i think gray's syllogism amounts to "I think, therefore God is".

I am extremely puzzled by consciousness. obviously i mean a lot to me. and i have a morality, which is clearly not arbitrary, but is not clearly settled either. these things puzzle me. but proposing a god is responsible for all this just doesn't mean anything to me. for example, it certainly doesn't tell me what god's morality is. as i said above: the most that is possible is the converse, that ones morality says who god is. you can do that if you like, but to me it seems pointless.

BUSHbasher..

You are quite right.. csteele's post was magnificent. Oh that ALL of us would have a close look at that book. CSTEELE.. regarding Abraham and Lot.. and the clashes over grazing rights.. there are plenty of lessons there also :)


BBOY said:
<< (morals are) emergent relational phenomena between subjects of the environment, and this certainly doesn’t exclude their objectivity.>>

On the first bit..*tick* I totally agree with that description of morality in a Godless universe. 'relational phenomema'.

But then.. you said about 'objectivity' ? *puzzled look* you need to be more specific. I would say that the values most varied cultures adopt are 'survive by all means, fair or foul' Other than this Single value common to all mankind, the responses to the other major rites of passage (Birth, Marriage,Death) tend to fall into the animistic or religious tradition category, but the values are certainly not objective. Even survival is not an 'objective' value..it is simply a reality we all face. In short 'kill them b4 they kill you'

So, I maintain that the absense of God.. definitely excludes any moral objectiveness. We are left with just 'relational phenomena'

DESIPIS.. I had to look twice :)
Theist A and B -quite right. Muslim/Christian/Jew

This leads us to the 'but we are the correct version' situation.
No matter who is actually 'correct' each of the monotheistic faiths, whether 'true' or not, at least they have a 'basis' for their morality. We can fight it out among ourselves with evidence to see who of us is the true faith.
Atheism in the end game.. is just 'existence' and you can give meaning to it by any kind of morality you like..beneficial or harmful.. it makes not difference to any God.. because there is none.. thus, all things are valid, but not all are lawful in such a scenario.
You can fill in those gaps with your imagination.

"As evolving organisms,..."

So when are we going to sprout wings and fly, CJ? If only evolution had endowed CJ with more ....

Taking atheism seriously! There is nothing serious about it, its a state of mind.( hence the name I gave myself) The bible has had holes punched all the way through it, and lets not forget the pain and suffering that its causing today. I feel that christians and alike, cant come to terms with there own demise and its just the fear of death you haven't got yours minds around. I also believe we will all laugh one day at our early beginnings. Atheism-ism is not a religion.

2000 + years ago, man wrote a book, and from that book, the first form of law and order was born. You sheep people just haven't evolved yet, that's all. This belief in the supernatural comes from the oldest part of the brain and from our earliest times, when we were all trying to make sense of our existence. Because of this, and time, evolution has kept this curiosity alive and well today.

Dont feel too bad! we will wait for you.

Fairy tales are very good for teaching children morality. Many of these predate the modern prophetic religions. If that doesn't work then the threat of no presents from Santa might. I think Santa also predates the modern prophetic religions.

On a separate matter, would it be fair to assume that 'Christians' are statistically more likely to drop bombs on Iraqis than the non-superstitious?

One more question: Does a teleology that ends in Armageddon help to give people joy and fulfillment in their life?

Grantnw. Here!Here.