runner,

So what if more people are getting divorced. Do you suppose that people should just put up with abusive partners? Of course not. So let them get a divorce. So what if "lust" is on the increase (how you've measured this is beyond comprehension)? What does it matter to you? It's not your body. If you don't like lust, don't express it.

As for migrations, people seek refuge in places where they have religous freedom - that's why America was settled by the Europeans, remember (it's a pity that they didn't apply this notion of freedom to the indigenous people or the slaves they shipped over).

The only matter you raise that's even worth looking at is rates of violence, including sexual violence. It may fascinate you to discover that the more secular a country, the lower the rate of violence. This is - if you bother to do the research - a fact so well studied it is even trivial to sociologists.

The problem I constantly find religious fundamentalists is that they think that only they know what it right and true and that only they have the ability to perfectly interpret their divinely revealed holy books.

Such an approach leads them to deny both the ability of others to come to different conclusions and to deny empirical reality when it conflicts with their beliefs. It leads them to say things which rational people (whether they are religious or not) find abhorrent, bizarre and often downright stupid.

Such as the following:
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

Lev: "the more secular a country, the lower the rate of violence. This is - if you bother to do the research - a fact so well studied it is even trivial to sociologists"

Quite so, and thanks for saving me from having to point out that sociological truism. Indeed, there are numerous studies around of late that state clearly that most forms of violence in our society are actually less prevalent now than they were in the 'good old days'.

But runner's never let facts or other aspects of reality get in the way of his idiotic fundy rants. It doesn't really matter though, because I'm sure nobody with a functioning brain takes him seriously.

I'm sorry about the clumsily baited hook runner but here you are condemning the actions of Abraham and Lot as depraved even though the Bible itself makes no such assertions about their actions.

You say that Jesus died for Lot's sins but what are they because the Bible doesn't spell them out? Are you not judging his actions with a modern, dare I say evolved, morality?

Do I likewise have the same right to judge lets say your homophobia with my modern morality?

You might note that not once in my previous post did I condemn either man. You did.

I love Genesis precisely because of the human-ness poring out of each verse rather than any perceived righteousness. It is such a marvellously Jewish book and we in the West are privileged to have been able to adopt it.

Go have another read mate, you might be surprised what you find.

Meanwhile can I leave you with the following link;

http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/dra-til-helvete.html

so, boaz, just to be clear: you're claiming that there is a "basis" for the morality of the [major?] monotheistic faiths, whether or not those faiths are "true"? and, you're claiming that it is only such monotheistically-origined morality which can claim to have a basis at all?

i don't know how to respond. i think you're your own best critic.

though you are happy to praise csteele's post, as far as i can tell you have entirely missed the implication of that post.

Lev
you write 'So what if more people are getting divorced.' No sane person could think that divorce is good for the children involved. Generally step parents will rarely love and care for children as much as natural parents although as some will point out that their are always exceptions. Look in the prisons and you will find over 90% of people in their have grown up without their natural dad. You can't possibly believe that the breakdown of marriage is good for society. It often ends in welfare dependency and bitter people.
You write
So what if "lust" is on the increase '

Again you can't possibly believe that a society that portrays humans as purely sex objects is healthy. Uncontrolled lust leads to child sexual abuse as seen by many who feed on the perverted pornography industry. Look at the number of State Labour ministers who have been held captive to this and you can see the fruit. The pornography that sets many off in the indigenous communities speak for themselves. We are in an age where God has handed people over to their own lust and destruction where even homosexuality is considered normal.

csteele

The bible does condemn Abraham and Lot and every other son of Adam including you and me. We have all partaken of Adams depraved and fallen nature. They sinned like any other people because they were sinners. They did not sin and then become sinners. That is why none is declared righteous except by faith in the only Righteous One. The good news is that they put their faith in Christ and were made righteous because of it. Lot had many sins but to break God's law once was enough to become a lawbreaker. Abraham is the Father of those who believe in Christ because he had faith in God and His mercy and grace. Though not perfect Abraham's faith was a great example to those who believed. Remember even Abraham told a half truth (full lie) about his wife.

Runner,

Where is your empirical evidence that finds 90% of prisoners were raised without your natural father? Have you sought stronger correlations? What reasons to give that step parents are incapable of loving and caring for children not theirs by nature? Are these just prejudices of yours or do you have something to back it up with?

Why do you presume that an increase of lust must inevitably portray humans as purely sex objects? Are you not capable of imagining that people are capable of lustful and not view humans as purely sex objects? Is it not possible to perceive a person and consider them to be true, good and beautiful or does the observation of one, mean that the others are not possible? Again, is this just a prejudice you have, or do you have something to back it up with?

What is your problem with homosexuality? Why do you consider it abnormal, when it is universal to all cultures, through all history and has been observed in most species. Indeed all species studied have shown homosexual behaviour except for those who have no sex behaviour at all (such as sea urchins, aphis) or those which are hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. Is this cry of "abnormal" just another prejudice, or do you have something to back it up with?

In seeking the truth, the results may sometimes surprise you.