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The Forum > Article Comments > Taking atheism seriously > Comments

Taking atheism seriously : Comments

By Graham Preston, published 20/2/2008

If God does not, and never has, existed then what necessarily follows about life, the universe and everything?

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The words strawman and silly come to mind.

What the author is saying is we should believe in the supernatural otherwise your life has no real meaning other then what we give it. The author is forgetting that his belief in a particular god/s gives his life meaning. Rather then this meaning coming through a choice that he has made he believes that it has been bestowed on him. That just a trick of self-delusion. He forgets that he really has given his life meaning by shopping for one, he may have done a man shop and bought something from the first peddler he came across. If he chose a different religion his sens of right and wrong would be different. So what this really boils down to is he believes we should believe in a god even if there isn't one simply because it give us a belief that wrong and right are give to us from on high. This is foolish.
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 8:37:08 AM
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yep. straw man describes it exactly. i know no atheist who claims any of these questions are easy.

i have no idea how to marry the sense of meaning my life has to myself and my companions, to the notion that the universe is run by physical laws. i don't know how to think about determinism. i don't know the extent to which moral laws are absolute, consequences of the nature of the animal, or are abitrary.

i think about these things, but i claim no answers. but somehow i live my life with meaning. you want to call that sense of meaning god-given? go ahead. who cares? how does that statement help? how does that tell you at all what the meaning is? if the meaning is telling you there is a god, then the meaning comes first. your sense of meaning gives you your sense of god. you cannot then criticise my sense of morality and meaning because it conflicts with the god you've created for yourself. we can argue about meaning and morality, but your meaning-created god simply cannot help.

i live my life with limited meaning. i just don't pretend it has more meaning than it has, or that difficult questions about that meaning have purportedly simple answers.
Posted by bushbasher, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:12:49 AM
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Graham Preston does a reasonably good job of describing an atheist worldview, but he gives himself away when he asks "why should anyone care about and abide by moral feelings that happen to be thrown up by the impersonal, uncaring stuff of the universe?"

The answer is of course because they're not. Humans have evolved to develop complex systems of meaning, including religions, spirituality, mythologies etc.

Further, his conclusion that "in the absence of any absolute moral values it is not possible to make moral progress or to even have any genuinely rational moral debate (or indeed rational debate on any other subject since we are unable to control what we think or say", is complete bunkum.

One of the ways in which humans have adapted successfully is in their creation of the societies that sustain them and bestow identity upon them. Every society has developed moral codes and regulatory structures in order that its members can coexist sustainably.

As evolving organisms, humans have created diverse sociocultural forms as adaptive strategies. Some are more successful than others, and they all change over time or die out.

So what?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:21:49 AM
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Silly, silly, strawman indeed!
Has the author ever heard of Buddhism? This is a genuine Athiestic philosophy and much of the morality in traditional religion comes from this tradition.
(The folks who turned it into religion don't get it. Kill the Buddha! Buddah says so!)
God is not a logic concept as creator: Who created God then? Why invoke something *much* more bizarre and inexplicable to explain something? Ochams razor is a lesson that needs to be learned!
God is not logical as moral guidance: Lets face it, Christianity alone allows *any* behaviour to be normalised. Look at US "God hates Fags" movement and the general approval of war and aggression whenever they are threatened. (and are sooo easy to manipulate!)
Christians can't even get "turn the other cheek", let alone stopping powerful old men from harming children. Any other international pedophile ring would be *decimated* in disgust, but not the church!
Atheism has been a major contributor to the success of western civilisation (what little is left of it!). Religion is one of the reasons that civilisation is in decline as it encourages narrow minded, morally superiour attitude as well as self justified aggression.
We are getting used to Jonny Howard style "religiousness": Rude, aggressive, manipulative and deceptively tricky.
At least athiests *have* ideals to aim for these days!
Posted by Ozandy, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 9:24:29 AM
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I think the Comments won.
Posted by Godo, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 10:20:08 AM
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Makes for a good laugh reading the stupid arguments with people denying the obvious (their Creator). The Psalmist summed it up nicely a long time ago when he wrote that a fool says in his heart that their is no God. Dream on! Atheism can't be taken seriously because it is the invention of sinful corrupt man who can't lie straight in bed.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 20 February 2008 10:26:34 AM
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