At risk of repeating myself one does not NEED a religion to establish a basis in morality and nor does one need to reject religious edicts.

A universal morality can be established on shared agreement and informed consent between participants.

To give an example, if two men decide to engage in homosexual sex and they both agree, then that's a moral act. If two men decide not too because the book of Leviticus prohibits it, that's a moral act too.

What would be immoral would be one man forcing such an act on another against their will, or telling two men they cannot do it (or punishing them if they do) because the book of Leviticus prohibits it.

Mutual agreement between free and informed actors is the path to resolving this "problem" for everyone.

It's not that hard. Just respect the right of people to control their own bodies and respect their ability to make their own decisions with the agreement of others.

Yes Runner you have outed my deep prejudice about people killing their sons. Do you find this prejudice a problem?

Abraham actually attempted this twice. Once with Isaac but also with Ishmael.

Indeed Abraham's life provided a wealth of moral instruction.

He essentially pimped out his wife to save himself from possible danger and to gain material possessions. Here was a great lesson about the ability some of those whom may profess to love you to use you to further their own self-interest. Can we ever regard this as true love? What might be the warning signs in a relationship?

He then slept with and impregnated a woman slave giving a neat lead into a discussion about sexual harassment in the workplace, the evils of slavery, and the rights of women.

The act of leading the mother and son into the desert and leaving them there to die spoke volumes about facing ones responsibilities instead of disposing of them. “Father Abraham” isn’t going to win any votes for father of the year from me.

His cousin Lot is an interesting character who was prepared to sacrifice his daughters to the mob to retain the safety of strangers who were guests in his house. This gave became a great talking point about how morals evolve, as do societies. I asked if they thought Lot felt that he was doing a moral deed at the time. The answer was a reluctant yes.

But the best discussion was regarding Lot sleeping with his daughters in the mountains. How would we judge a man in today’s society standing up in court having been charged with impregnating his two daughters and trying to defend it by saying it was the grog and ‘I didn‘t realise what I was doing‘? I could see an indigenous person from a dysfunctional community getting very short shrift in your courtroom Runner for exactly this crime. How do you view the actions of Lot?

If ultimately we concede that morals are not static then whose morals are evolving? God’s or humanity’s? Or are they really set in stone…so to speak.

unimaginative tripe

csteele

Your ability to point out the depravity of man is precise. Your ability to learn the lesson of Scripture that we all need a Saviour seems to have escaped you. Events such as that of Lot are still taking place in drug and alcohol affected communities today. A short view of history will show you that wherever the gospel has taken root in a community that instances of abuse and violence decreases. Of course as we have seen the demise of the influence of the gospel we see a great increase in violence and abuse (including abortion and child sexual abuse.

If you are so good at picking out the depravity of man you should also be good at bowing the knee to the Only Righteous Man to ever walk the earth. He died for your sin just as He died for Lot's sin and my sin.

I'm SURE you're just stirring, Runner. " A short view of history will show you that wherever the gospel has taken root in a community that instances of abuse and violence decreases." What, like America?

bennie

You know as well as anyone that in America and the Western world that violence, sexual abuse, and the break down of the family has increased dramatically over the last 50 years or so. As a nation becomes more secular (like the US) and the influence of the gospel diminishes you have an increase in porn, immorality, abuse, more greed, lust etc etc.
Their is however enough of the influence of the gospel left to make it a far more attractive place to live than most of Asia and other nations. You don't see long lists of people wanting to immigrate to India or muslim dominated nations.