Just remember all you non believers...GOD LOVES YOU weather you think he exists or not.

I think the good old biblical term "onanism" describes pretty well where this article and thread have begun and progressed.

So much intellectual seed falling on the ground...

Graham,

You said "it seemed a bit odd that you used the word predetermined instead of undetermined"

I use the word predetermined in the sense that it is predetermined that my method of locomotion will be by walking since I have been born with legs. If I was born a bird it would be predetermined that I would get around by flying. Within predetermined parameters resulting from the fact that I have legs and not wings and numerous other such predetermined parameters Including conditioning resulting from environmental influences, my behavior will be random.

You also say "I think we all believe we can tell the difference between undetermined behaviour and free will."

I know of no evidence that points to the existence of free will and in the absence of such evidence I do not believe that there is any such thing as free will.

If anyone can devise an experiment that is able to distinguish between random behavior and an act of free will then I would be very interested to here of it. It is not enough to "know" in your own mind that ones actions are according to free will. This is not evidence.

You also say "Unless a person is exercising genuine free will there is no sense in praising or punishing anyone for their behaviour".

It is precisely because free will does not exist that it is possible to modify someone's behaviour by praise and punishment. How much harder would it have been for Pavlov to train his dog if his dog was possessed of free will.

Kenneth

Niceguy you are quick to tell us what your god thinks without ever gaining this information from your god. This is what I mean by god being the self, you cannot know that god loves or hates anything unless you are god. That god loves anything is simply your opinion , something that you made up, invented and nothing else and it is based on your prejudices or strategic style for debate.

Faith is essentially a form of superstition justified meglamania.