Hi yvonne,

The 'everyone REALLY believes in God' argument is fairly common Christian propaganda. You can see why -- as soon as Christians admit that it's possible for SOMEBODY not to believe in God then it raises the possibility that one day THEY might not believe in God, and that's very traumatising. It's much more comforting to cling to the collective delusion that everyone is really thinking the same as you -- they're just not saying it aloud.

That's one reason why 'coming out' as an atheist and saying it aloud and loudly and as often as possible is important; it makes it impossible for believers to go on deluding themselves like this any longer.

Fractelle, Your dream works fine if there’s no God. Philosophy on its own is fine, if there’s no God.

I know you’re not into banning religion: I was speaking to AJ Philips. I’m as horrified as you are by, say, 9/11 or the ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem by the First Crusade. Also embarrassed (although it’s too weak a word) as I am myself religious. But then, I’m embarrassed by all human evil, as I am human and capable of much of what we hear about.

I don’t cherry pick from the Bible. Some theists do, as do some atheists including Dawkins. I try to engage with the whole of Christian scripture, including the often torrid Old Testament (see post Saturday evening), just as I try to engage with the whole of God. It isn’t easy or comfortable. However, I can’t, and don’t wish to, shake off my belief like a jacket: I believe in God, and I make the best of the complex, messy story of God’s dealings with humanity.

I too believe in responsibility. I believe God expects it of us. In behaviour terms, mature theism probably resembles what you have in mind.

Jon J, I think everyone already knows that some religious people sometimes do awful things. On your site, under the list you grabbed was the following heading: “Outrages against themselves or others committed by atheist groups, officials or lone fanatics”. There was no list under it. Is this an error, or a gag, or is there a serious belief that atheists don’t commit outrages? The “more moral than thou” conceit of atheists is getting a bit much, isn’t it? Certainly, it more than rivals the corresponding conceit I’ve encountered at churches.

Yvonne, Yes I can accept that atheists cannot believe in a supernatural deity. It’s the supernatural deity that has trouble accepting it. We are under instructions to spread the word, but I think we have to be very careful (respectful, considerate …) about how we do that. I know a lot of evangelistic behaviour is actually wrong because of the way it’s done.

Pax,

JonJ, it's not that everyone believes in God, but that no one experiences life in purely materialistic terms, as a strict atheism would demand.

Atheists always point to elements of religion that are distant from ordinary life, such as biblical miracles, but they don't look at aspects of their own belief system which are also removed from the way people ordinarily think about and experience reality.

Hi, could anyone instruct me what is procedure of publishing an article, because I wish to do so. Thanks.

Browsing through some comments and the article itself, I can definitely say that in general you are as much right as wrong. (what is right and wrong?)

I believe that lots of people actually need to comfort themselves with imaginations of god and rules.

Some of the arguments in opinions, state that religions have created wars and racism. How about new argument that atheism have done this same or worse? I do not believe that it is quite as easy. How about leaving religion aside and just analyzing the issues. Let me make an issue. If there is going to be started WWIII just because two or more groups of people cannot find conflict resolution or a compromise about their claims where from or where to god came down on earth or other way round or so. I know you disagree with an idea of right or wrong, but I say , this is Wrong! this is fanatism, immaturity, irresponsibility.

But if the neighbor on your left makes holly day on friday, and on right in saturday and the one across the street on sunday. And they all live in peace and harmony with each other and with you. Can you say it is wrong? can you say that they do not need what they do? Perhaps if they did not do that, they would be real pain for you and each other.

I can accept that you do not need fairy tails, but your children do need. It is interesting that children around the world learn not on science books, that is just pure and divine truth if you believe it is, but on fairy tails. It is interesting that later in their lives, their parents do not need to translate them that in truth the animals do not talk nor have human behavior etc.

Don't you think that it can be similarly with religion?
Have you thought that atheism can and is treated as one of religions?

Goodthief,

You're reading too much into what I said. A style of rebuttal often used when someone has made a good point.

Secular societies many not be a purely Atheistic virtue, but without Atheists (or Agnostics), we possibly wouldn't have them.

<<Further, there are many religious people who think theocracies (even run by their religions) are wrong...>>

I'm well aware of that. But one point you're missing, is that many of Theists support the Separation of Church and State, because they fear the State controlling the Church, not the other way around.

<<Or, do you dream of a society which actively prohibits theism and religion, and all other forms of “irrationality”?>>

Don't be silly.

<<And, are you saying here that such a society will be a moral improvement on the secular model that permits theism and religion and other forms of irrationality?>>

No. I was saying that morality isn't dependent the existence of religion. But it's certainly quite arguable that a world without religion would be at least a little more peaceful, as we would then have one less motive for war and terror.

AJ Philips, you have missed my point, but to rub your nose in it would be churlish.