Jon J

Why don't you read again what I said. You assume I believe in God. In the main, throughout history, people have believed in God.There is a difference between saying God exists and people believe God exists. For most people to no longer do so suggests a fundamental change in our collective consciousness.

The question is, can we now look at life with a sense of responsibility. Or, does the centuries of toiling the Earth, getting to know how it works intimately, count for nothing?

Jon J,
You are more likely to go overboard in the name of something you believe in than in the name of something you do not believe in. If you are inclined to become a fanatic it can only be because of something you believe in, not because of a belief you reject. There are many beliefs, not only religious, you can be fanatically attached to.

For instance, you are not likely to be intolerant if you just DO NOT THINK there is a God as e.g. the Christians understand Him to be; you are more likely to be intolerant if you FIRMLY BELIEVE (e.g. because of your understanding of what is evidence) that there is no such God.

Many more of 20th century atrocities were committed in the name of Fascism or Communism than in the name of anti-fascism or anti-communism, although most of the Communists were also anti-fascist and most of the Fascists were also anti-communists.

Some religious people adhere fanatically to their beliefs, like some atheists - e.g. Nazi or Stalinists but not only those - adhere fanatically to their beliefs. In both cases the emphasis is on "some".

Sorry George, but the Nazis and the Churches had a close relationship.

Both German state churches are also known to have used slave labour during World War II, but only the Catholic Church has denied any blame and refused to join the national compensation fund. Documents imply that the churches' forced labourers were sent to death camps when they were no longer useful and that they also knew about the death camps for the babies of their workers, yet said nothing.

Cardinal Secretary of State, Eugenio Pacelli (later to become Pope Pius XII) signed the Concordat between Nazi Germany and the Vatican at a formal ceremony in Rome on 20 July 1933.

The Concordat effectively legitimized Hitler and the Nazi government to the eyes of Catholicism, Christianity, and the world.

Consecrated in 1935, the Martin Luther Memorial Church still stands in Berlin. Originally the Church bells and altar contained the swastika, but later removed because of post-war law that outlaws swastikas in Germany. Nevertheless, the church still retains many of the Nazi symbols and icons, including a muscular Aryan Jesus, Iron cross, statues of Nazi stormtroopers, and a bust of Adolf Hitler.

During the 30s, Nazi party members made up two thirds of the church attendance, where they also baptized their children.

Note that Hitler greatly admired Martin Luther (mentioned in Mein Kampf), and considered him one of the greatest reformers.

There is a difference between anti-Judaeism and anti-Semitism but probably not enough to have made a difference when it really mattered the most.

More recently some Nuns and Priests have been convicted of actively participating in the Rwanda genocide so I don't think that beliefs necessarily result in any special type of morality.

Forget to include this trivia -

Communism describes an economic and social belief system, based on the concept of community ownership rather than individual ownership. Despite assumptions to the contrary, it says NOTHING about promoting atheism or eliminating religion.

Although there were certainly persecutions against Russian churches and individual clergy in the early 1900s, the powers of Communism did this out of political concerns, not for religious or atheist reasons. (Stalin actually reintroduced the Russian Orthodox Church).

Other socialist and communist countries, especially South American countries, still embrace Christianity, especially Catholicism. China still remains largely Taoist/Buddhist/Atheist and rather intolerant due to it's strict adherence and paranoia.

Virtually all books that attempt to connect atheism with communism have come from religious organizations or religious authors who have an obvious bent against a rival and competing belief-system. Communism competes against religious dogma because it itself describes a dogma.

Finally, Karl Marx came from Jewish parents but his father embraced Christianity and the entire family were baptized as Protestants.

Stalin was raised by a deeply religious mother, he attended a parish school, and later entered a theological seminary where he began his radical communist thinking.Much of his temper and intolerance matches that of the religious teachings of his day.

I wonder how much of our personal beliefs and assumptions are determined by others and how much is actually due to free-thought?

wobbles,
I cannot see what has all that you wrote to do with what I was saying. I hope other readers understood me better. Fanaticism and hatred are two different things but they are closely related. I have to admit that, now that I read your post. Whatever the truth value of your diatribe, item by item - it is a oversimplified presentation of a complicated problem that is, as I said, unrelated to what I was saying about fanaticism - you must have made a very bad experience that triggered this reaction, and for this I am sorry.

I for myself have personally experienced WWII only as a child, however I had a first hand experience of what followed in the countries that came under Stalinist rule (that also included blaming the Church for all the ills of this world). Faith, directly or indirectly related to organised Church, was often the only thing that sustained us, and I know the same was true for many also during WWII.

Had I not felt sorry for you I would have stopped reading after your first sentence. Since as a Christian I have learned by now not be offended by anything, it is easier for me to try to understand other people's frustrations.

"I wonder how much of our personal beliefs and assumptions are determined by others and how much is actually due to free-thought?"

Indeed, this is a question you should try to answer first of all for yourself.

It's been a while since I glanced at this thread - isn't it just the case that the minute you take your eye off the ball...

Martin Ibn Warriq, what a fascinating list of straw men you have created. I've only picked the really devious examples.

>>Christianity is mythological which implies the events recorded in the New Testament did not happen.<<

Nope. Mythology does however surround some events recorded in the New Testament to the extent that it is reasonable to believe they did not happen. What we can't know is which ones may be factual and which may be simple story-telling.

>>Humans are value creators, values are not discovered<<

So the difference between creating and discovering is... what? If I articulate a value that says that for the good of society, murder is a bad thing, have I discovered it as a result of my experience, or have I created it?

>>Religious commitment is equivalent to the abdication of our duty to be intelligent, i.e. Christians do not think for themselves<<

Not necessarily. It is possible to be intelligent, and at the same time to have the ability to close off avenues of enquiry on the basis that you have already made up your mind. Many of us do this extremely frequently on non-religious issues. Think Ford vs Holden. Essendon vs Collingwood.

>>Christianity teaches human desires are dirty<<

Many Christians have taken it upon themselves to do adopt this view. Is this pure coincidence?

>>Christian belief is an exercise in self delusion and is held contrary to the evidence<<

In a sense, that's exactly right. I'd express it more gently though, since religious people (not only Christians, I might add) have a very selective view of what constitutes "evidence".

>>There are no answers, religion prevents the search for these non existent answers??<<

Codswallop. If anything, there are too many answers.

What is missing is an agreement that there is one, right, answer. And you do have to admit, that most religions actively discourage their followers from finding out that theirs might not actually be "the one".