Candide, Looking at the Old Testament, to find the “violent and vindictive” God you mention involves a process of “cherry picking” exactly like the process the atheists like to condemn. To find God in the Old Testament – or the New, for that matter – you have to take it all in. Ain’t easy, but for a theist it’s worth the trouble, of course.

Haven’t noticed anyone say an atheist can’t appreciate the finer things, but perhaps I missed it. We all have senses, so we’re all bound to notice most things. Mind you, if the “finer things” have something to do with God, then I suppose it’s a different matter.

On the other hand, some atheists say that theistic “blinkers” stop theists from seeing the glories of the world! Since theists have eyes, it strikes me as a silly suggestion. Anyway, looks like we’re all claiming superior vision.

Meanwhile, it seems that “fairy tale” has replaced the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the standard atheist putdown for the theist. Never seen a group of people develop jargon so fast. It will be a litany soon. Ah well.

Fractelle, For what it’s worth, I think that worshipping God is more or less unavoidable once there’s the slightest apprehension that He’s actually there – and that, despite His fierce, jealous love for His beloved Israel in the Old Testament, He is love. Remember, love is fierce. The difference Jesus makes is that it’s no longer a closed shop: we are all invited into that fierceness. And, even those who decline are loved – God loves so chronically.

Pax,

AJ Philips said: "Yes, Apis. Ever heard of the unethical dealings, actions and motives of Christians (among other Theists)?"
Yes, AJ Philips, but they don't get held up as paragons of virtue.

Sorry, but my enjoyment of things does not depend on any deity - some things are just pleasing to me. They may not be pleasing to others - if there was a deity surely the same things would evoke the so-called 'spiritual' response in everyone. I think in ages past I could have been an animist, as the natural world gives me great pleasure. Now I am perfectly content with a rational scientific understanding of the world, and am comfortable with the knowledge that this changes over time. I certainly do not see everything as just a bunch of atoms, though there is something wonderful about the fact that we are more air than matter, even though we seem so solid. I am also entranced by the fact that in every glass of water I drink there is hydrogen that came into existence during the Big Bang and I am partaking of something that is as old as the universe. A deity has no place in my response to the world I live in.

One of the greatest prophets of the modern era is Albert Einstein.The simple equation E=MCsquared said so much.Einstein showed that matter,time, energy and space were all inter-dependant.These are non ordinary realities that defy our concepts of mundane existence.Einstein himself was not religious in the traditional sense,yet he was in total awe of what he had discovered.Agnostic perhaps,but no atheist.Stephen Hawking is very religious believing in the Christian faith.Who would dare call him a fool?
I think that both sides of this debate have it wrong to some degree,there is no proof of a fatherly figure who will protect us,but science continues to discover a world way beyond our notions of reality.Let's move with the development of our consciousness and leave notions of eternal bliss in playschool.

Religion is not just simplistic fairytales,it reflects a long history of cultural evolution regardless of diety.God is not the question or the answer.What do the atheists propose to replace thousands of years of moral and ethical evolution with,to ensure the survival of civil society?I for one,see serious decay.

Apis,

<<Yes, AJ Philips, but they don't get held up as paragons of virtue.>>

You've gotta be kidding me!

Considering virtue is the quality of doing what is right and avoiding what is wrong, they're certainly held up to be paragons of this by many.

Arjay,

Morality has improved over time despite religion. For example, how do Christians now know what parts of the Bible to cherry-pick as the good bits considering some of the horrors condoned in the Bible? It certain wasn't wasn't the Bible itself. Otherwise we could still be burning people at the stake, or using all sorts of creative torture devices, demanding that heretics recant and accept God.

America could very well be about to have either it's first female, or black president, and here you are waffling on about decay. Should we go back to oppressing women and people with different coloured skin? Perhaps imprisoning homosexuals would help with this so-called decay?

WWII was arguably won by Alan Turing because of his cracking of the Enigma code. He was imprisoned in a day-and-age that you seem to think everything was grand, and simply because of homosexuality. He later went on to commit suicide. This wouldn't happen nowadays. Yet here you are, trying to tell us that there is “serious decay”.

Everyone, from every generation, has always thought that there was “serious decay” Yet Secular societies slowly seem to be getting better, and better (with the occasional setback). So your claim that there is “serious decay”, and that religion can somehow prevent, this is pure stupidity, ignorance and narrow-mindedness. Your world-view is seriously out-of-date.

I've quoted this before, but it looks like I'll have to quote it again:

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

You know, Arjay, one day, you will pass on and the world will keep turning. Society will slowly become more and more moral (overall) as religion fades away to nothing with the ever-increasing proof that it is false, completely unnecessary and regressive.

Therefore, the last paragraph of your post demonstrates a very simplistic, narrow and old-fashioned view of the world that we now know to be wrong.