Paul,

Nobody in the Liberal Democracies expects the same standards of Israel and it's neighbours while Israel claims to be a Liberal Democracy. Just as every liberal democrat expects higher standards from the Western Liberal Democracies simply because that's what makes them Liberal Democracies. Their values, their philosophical base demand those higher standards.

If Israel seeks to align itself with the Western Liberal Democracies and continues to attempt to claim, as you do, such a brotherly link then it, and you, should be able to take on the same values otherwise you are simply trying to pull the Western Liberal Democracies down to the same morally sinful level as the Israeli behaviour. Israel and you should also be able to accept criticism and re-assess it's actions towards it's neighbours. That's what Liberal Democrats accept and expect. Why can't Israel measure up? Why don't you expect Israel to measure up?

If you don't support opposition to the occupation...er...does that mean you support the occupation and the activities ascocciated with it?

I have for some time now accepted only and supported a two-state solution. I have not considered any other option. With a realisation there are other prefered options such as a single state I will now, as a true liberal democrat, undertake some examination of other proposals and make an independant decision on those. If you have any opinion on the single state option or any other option (Other than a continuation of the current fiasco) I would appreciate hearing it. Same with you Dannielle.

POLARIZATION and INTRACTABLE POSITIONS.

Here is part of a transcript from a CNN story "God's Jewish Warriors"

ETZION (through translator): We said that, with explosives, we would destroy the Dome of the Rock.

AMANPOUR: The Dome of the Rock is Islam's third holiest site, a 1,300-year-old shrine towering over this enormous outcropping of limestone. Sitting nearby on a throne-like chair, Jerusalem's top Muslim cleric told us why the rock is so important.

SHEIK MUHAMMAD HUSSEIN, GRAND MUFTI OF JERUSALEM (through translator): We consider this to be the spot where the Prophet Mohammed began his ascent to heaven.

AMANPOUR: But Jews also revere this spot as the site of their ancient temple, which Etzion believes must be rebuilt for the redemption, the coming of the messiah.

ETZION (through translator): There is no redemption without the temple. Redemption without the temple is like trying to revive someone without a heart.

AMANPOUR: Etzion and his co-conspirators believed blowing up the Dome of the Rock would undo the peace with Egypt and make room for the Jewish temple.

With 600 pounds of explosives diverted from army stockpiles, they had more than enough.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Damaging the holy shrine would lead to repercussions, the scale of which I can't even imagine.

COMMENT:
As I've said so many times. Peace.. boils down to Jerusalem..and the Temple. But given the rather entrenched positions above.... it is difficult to see how there would ever be peace.
Am I missing something here?

LEV... you support a 1 state solution.... ? good grief.

I'm wondering what your view is of the rather militant Fatah and Hamas in view of such a proposal.

A one state situation would give an Arab Majority in a very short time!

NOW... if you total up the following: (2006)

-Gaza
-WestBank
-Israel
-Golan Heights

there are 49.3 % Arabs and 50.3% Jews.

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html#graph6

Given Hamas unambiguous statement in their Charter that Palestine is an 'Islamic Waqf' from the day it was conquered by force until the day of resurrection.....

I can only conclude that you are blissfully naive or an outright seditious support of radical Islam. I will do the same for you as you did for the other poster "assume you are the former"

But I don't know what fantasyland you are living in.. I'll bet it isn't Israel.. and specially not a hotly contested section.. like Sderot... where the missiles are flowing freely.

Ask yourself this- "If that is how they act in weakness..how would they act in strength"? (Palestinians)

Do you honestly believe that your 'one state' secular democracy would last any longer than a snowflake in the fires of hell ?

If so...then I seriously question your grasp on reality, history and human nature.

Keith,

Research the full meaning of Liberal Democracy. Start with Lewis Namier...

Liberal Democracies have the right to protect themselves in times of war, threat, risks of terrorism, even sabre rattling ... they do so. Name one that doesn’t.

Britain - a Liberal Democracy - has made a fine art of “targetted killings” ... well outside its borders - in fact, on the other side of the world. The US also ...

Israel has made only one “targetted killing” - and this action was interrogated and debated in their Supreme Court.

Liberal Democratic Germany brought in Turkish workers as cheap labour to re-build their country after the war. Their descendents, born on Geman soil, are still classified as “guest workers”.

Research “gaols” in Liberal Democratic France.

There is no ‘open door’ policy in any country regarding entry and residence.

The meanest intelligence understands that Israel has to be particularly cautious. They cannot afford to let in terrorists who also may undertake false marriages to enter the country. Reunification of families was common until 2000; this has now been revoked for obvious reasons.

An Australian friend married a 58 yr old American bio-chemist. His here depended upon him getting a job, which because of his age he couldn’t obtain. Also, due to visa requirements, he had to go offshore at regular intervals, then re-apply, it cost them thousands. They now live in the US.

Israel as a democracy, would be utterly derelict in its duty to its people - Jews, Arabs, Christians and others alike, if it didn’t do everything in its power to protect them.

A one-state solution ... the current mass emigration of Palestinians ...

Read why:

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2007/news/54-2007.html

You want this for the whole area ...!

Hamas swore “to bring Sharia law to every house.” No allowance there for Christian, Jews, Buddhists, Druze, "Bai'hi, Gypsies, or any other religion; ... let alone atheists ...

Incidentally, as a Liberal Democracy, why don’t we legitimise same sex marriages - other Liberal Democracies do ... what about indigenous rights ...

Keith,

If you can name any Australian parliamentarians who have supported those who wish to harm us, by all means let me know. The very idea that such a person should be able to represent the citizens of the country in which he is standing for election is ABSURD.

You said “we allow a plethora of views and allow anyone access to stand for office in our political system.”
We don’t actually allow anyone to stand at all. Section 44 of the Constitution sets out restrictions on who can be a candidate for Federal parliament

44. Any person who -
(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power…

(ii.) Is attainted of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer: or

,shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

You said “I don't need yo compare Israels misdeeds with the misdeeds of others to identify Israels wrongs.

What’s funny then Keith is why you feel the need to invoke Israel when we discuss Irans nuclear ambitions. You seem unable to bring yourself to discuss Iran without bringing Israel’s supposed faults into the discussion. But according to your logic Israel’s transgressions are irrelevant to such a thread.

If you were honest Keith you would admit that you hold Israel to a far higher standard than you expect from the Islamic countries of the region.

Your comparison between Israel and western liberal democracies is specious. In Japan and Germany we ruled for years after the countries had surrendered. Israel is in the midst of a war. I would expect Israel to help Palestine rebuild only after they desist in attacking Israel.

Keith I am amazed you are calling anyone a messenger of the Israelis considering the similarity of your posts to the rhetoric published by the PA.

Danielle,

Two thumbs up. Keep up the good work.

Danielle,

I am not sure what your Wikipedia link is supposed to illustrate. That some states have an official religion? That the myth that Jews are a somehow a people independent of their religion is magically confirmed?

There is a between England having an Anglican state religion and Israel having an official Judiac religion. In England one is not required to walk around with ID cards declaring what religious group they are a member of. One does not face discrimination in the provision of land, in marriage, in citizenship, in right of entry etc on the basis of religion. You have not addressed these points.

Further I have no idea why you keep on bringing up the refugee question and their poor treatment within Gaza. Are you trying to tell me that "the blacks" are not running the bantustans appropriately? That they could improve their government's policies? Does this somehow mean that the apartheid system should be immune to criticism?

Yes you are right about same sex marriages and indigenous rights. Australia is not immune to criticism either.

Paul,

I note you have decided that no proof is needed to show that a common link exists among all Jews that is independent of their
religion. By doing so you have shown that you are beyond reason.

I also recommend that you ask some indigenous elders on the
relationship between their different tribes; they have a strong cline equivalence (lesser with Torres St Islanders), but they are of different cultures and very different traditional laws.

Significant failures are recognised on both sides for the Oslo accords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

You asserted that there are "large number of UN resolutions" that Hamas, Fatah and the PA are in breach of. Once again I ask you to cite them. Here's the list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

I should point out, for the nth time, that I do hold all States to the same standards. I have already recommended that you read previous posts on this forum on that matter.