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The Forum > Article Comments > Does Israel deserve our support? > Comments

Does Israel deserve our support? : Comments

By Ghada Karmi, published 8/10/2007

Modern Jews in Europe are not the people of ancient Judea and hold no title deeds to modern Palestine.

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Lev,

Freedom House states “free press”

The yellow press “Guardian” is not a credible paper.

Readers can judge for themselves about Uzi Oman and the Canaanite Movement if they go to wikipedia.

“... For a nation to genuinely arise in Palestine ... the youth must uncouple from Judaism, and form a Hebrew nation with its own unique identity. The birthplace and geographical coordinates of this nation is the Fertile Crescent...”

The ideas become even more strange ... the original Hebrew tongue ...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaanites_(movement)

By implication, ‘”uncoupling” would also mean Islam, which the Hebrew nation predated.

The article your cited by Uzi Oman was written in 1991, seventeen years ago ...

You write absolute tosh about Hamas. Why do they kill fellow Muslims? Why are their fellow Muslims trying to leave in droves? I can only surmise that you are engaging in some sort of bizarre political correctness to justify their murdering.

Christians and local violence?
Nablus' Christian community has decreased from 3,000 in the 1960s to 700; those remaining have gone underground. Four churches were firebombed 16 months ago (Christian Science Monitor)

Read:
“Israel, the hope of the Muslim World - Middle East News” from Asia Times Online
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IK20Ak01.html

Regarding: zmag.org - what a singularly strange article ... A quote:

“Despite the expulsions, military occupations, curfews, unemployment, and all the ancillary hardships imposed by the Zionists to drive them out, there are now 5.3 million Palestinians to 5.2 million Jews, in the lands of Mandate Palestine”

Israel exists on 17% of the original mandate for Palestine. OLO writers have stated that Jewish settlements should be removed back from the Green Line.

As to the particular documents zmag provided from “Forward”, the “Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs” and “Haaretz” to “verify” their “facts”, when indeed checked, responded with: “page not found”.

The IMFA is an excellent source for information about Israel; problems are not understated; and facts are provided.
http://www.mfa.gov.il

cont ....
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 29 December 2007 7:59:12 PM
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Condemn inumane regimes, yes! But go to these countries and condemn them, or write to these regimes in the same tempra ...?

Members of PEN international who write directly to presidents, supreme leaders, heads of judiciary, and other noteables, seeking clemency for dissidents, (and indeed other victims of “justice”), do not condemn these regimes in damning language (as much as one would like to), but express serious concern, ask details of the charges, and, if it be solely because the person exercised free expression, raise the issue of human rights and ask for their release.

The definition of “diplomacy” is telling someone to go to hell in such a way, that they look forward to the trip.

Do you think you can eradicate Iran’s horrific policies and abuses, such as the legal execution of little girls of 9 yrs old and of 12 yr old boys ( presuming of course you don’t agree with it)? I can provide you with personal addresses of Supreme Leader of the Islamic Republic, His Excellency Ayatollah Sayed 'Ali Khamenei; Head of the Judiciary, His Excellency Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroud; Minister of Intelligence Gholam Hossein Mohseni Ejeie; and of the President, His Excellency Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. I am sure they will give your condemnations their mortified and serious consideration. I have addresses of a whole raft of such people ...

As a member of Amnesty many years ago, I recall we were warned that writing-members could well be banned from entering certain countries. Apparently, certain regimes kept names ... One of my sons was banned from ever entering Indonesia. His crime: writing a thesis about their economy.

Again:

The only intelligent statement you made:

“What OLO writers approve or disapprove is irrelevant in this matter. They do not dictate the behaviour of the State of Israel. I am not caught up in this cause at all ...”

You are very free with calling people liars. This, or other childish and petulant name-calling is your bullying attempt to stifle adult debate. On the basis of your statement above ...? (Tactfully, I didn’t complete your statement ...)
Posted by Danielle, Saturday, 29 December 2007 9:25:16 PM
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Lev,
Freedom houses 1996 report considers Israel’s press “free”. That is its highest category. Israel’s neighbours almost all fall into the lowest category, “not free”, yet you spend almost all of your time online criticising Israel. Your justification for this is just pathetic.

>> Western Europe is not a state entity and Australia is a Christian state. It has a majority Christian population, but that does not make it a Christian state.

WTF? So is it a Christian state or not? Have you made a mistake or are you lying?

>> Hamas' existence is predicated on the situation that Palestinians find themselves in. Change the situation and Hamas' political support will likewise change.

The supreme arrogance that leads you to state your opinion as if it were fact is astounding. The only evidence you have ever offered to support your bizarre proposition is that Hamas came into existence because of the “occupation” and therefore will wither without it. Yet Gaza is no longer occupied. Has this lead to a drop in support for Hamas? The whole proposition is naive and based on the simplistic idea that if the situation which breeds an organisation disappears, the organisation itself will disappear. Continuing to pretend otherwise marks you as a liar by your own dubious logic.

If you are as important as you suggest, (BTW please provide details or keep the big noting to yourself) how do you find the time for your fatuous rants on OLO?
Posted by Paul.L, Sunday, 30 December 2007 2:05:34 PM
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Lev,

I resent having to repeat myself to someone supposedly computer literate; I provided, and again provide, Freedomhouse’s website for their Country Report: go to: (2007) & (Israel)
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=22&country=7199&year=2007

It states:

Israel (2007)
Population: 7,200,000
Capital: Jerusalem
Political Rights Score: 1
Civil Liberties Score: 2
Status: Free

Scroll for Israel’s policies; read this. Undoubtedly you won’t when you find facts at complete variance with those you hold so dear.

Electoral Democracies
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=368&year=2007

Israel is listed here as an electoral democracy with no rating attached. No democracies are rated.

Freedom of the Press 2007 Survey Release
http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=362

Charts and Graphs pdf
Israel is listed as a Free press, ranked #1 (Middle East & North Africa) with a rating of 29 - accounted by: - Legal Environment: 6, Political Environment: 13, Economic Environment: 10, Total Score: 29.

Australia is listed as a Free press, ranked # 39, with a rating of 21- (Legal Environment: 6, Political Environment: 9, Economic Environment: 6 Total Score: 21)

Overview Essay:
"... of 195 countries and territories assessed, 74 countries (38%) were rated Free (press); ... only 18% of the world’s population live in areas that have a Free press."

Draft Report pdf.
Israel (abstract): “Press freedom is generally respected in Israel, and the country features a vibrant media landscape. Journalists are occasionally subject to official restrictions, but an independent judiciary and an active civil society adequately protect the free media. ... A wide variety of newspapers, reflecting a broad range of political viewpoints and religious outlooks, is available... A diverse selection of broadcast media is also available... Internet access is widespread and available to approximate 50 percent, and it is not restricted by the government.”

Israel is not listed as #59 under any category. You patently have a serious problem with comprehension, are gullible, and not the sharpest knife in the drawer. It now appears that you deliberately falsify facts. Even I didn’t think you would do this. I have wasted time ... However, it is entirely my fault. I should have checked your statement before.

cont ...
Posted by Danielle, Sunday, 30 December 2007 8:52:03 PM
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Lev your write:

“Just for the record, I have irregular correspondence and a personal reference from a President and a Nobel Prize winner. The last time I wrote to said President, I recommended sweeping changes to their tax policy; within six months it was implemented in entirety, unique in the world. I also am in regular more correspondence with Federal and State Ministers and have worked for a large number of members of parliament and needless to say have engaged in the various appropriate policy committees.

Thus, it is true that I have a modicum of influence in these matters.”

Paul is entirely correct.

Unless you state the name of this president, and/or country, and the unique tax policies introduced - it is discounted as fact. You must admit, any “odd bod” can make unsubstantiated claims, and do so, on a whole range of issues.

If what you state is true, your billet et deux will have been recorded, drawn up into policy, presented to the House (whatever), and held in their governmental archives. Such material would substantiate you claims. You have no reason to feel "coy", unless you are supporting some undesirable. A number of OLO writers are activists, with information websites.

I am sure that the Australian government would publicly wish to acknowledge your contribution to international relations.

About your statement of regular correspondence to Federal and State Ministers, this is not questioned. Many politicians are inundated with correspondence (along with some unspeakable objects) on a range of issues. It is the nature of the correspondence that matters.

To be frank, your final comments:

“... have worked for a large number of members of parliament .....policy committees” is completely meaningless.

This could be anything - from cleaning offices to photocopying agendas.

If you are more forthcoming, I for one, would have no problem believing you.
Posted by Danielle, Sunday, 30 December 2007 10:02:39 PM
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Danielle,

It is a flaw of mine that I find people like yourself so fascinating. Why is it, when presented with clear and unambigious evidence, that Israel does not rank #1 for freedom of speech that you cannot bring yourself to admit that you got it wrong. Being in the first category is not the same as being #1 or even amongst the first. It isn't hard; just admit you got it wrong.

Why is that that you continue to attack, ad hominen, Uzi Oman's spiritual association (which I find myself having a great deal of sympathy with), rather than approaching the content of his propositions?

Why do you clutch as such straws such as an old link in an article when there is excellent archiving resources available?

Never mind; these questions are purely rhetorical and I do not expect you to answer them. How you expect to develop as a human being without allowing yourself to be capable of error is beyond me. But I'm sure you know, as you have all the answers, for all eternity.
Posted by Lev, Tuesday, 1 January 2008 6:41:28 PM
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