Fair article - however I don't think that problems of "integration" are due to external pressures on Islam but the problem is the nature of Islam itself as an alien political and social movement hiding under the banner of a religion.

Islam comes with its own load of baggage and demands which makes integration (anywhere) very problematic for the rest of us - the non-Muslims.

Islam's beliefs and ideologies are diametrically different from Western (Australian) values:

1) Theocracy – State and mosque is an inseparable unity
2) Supremacy – Islam claims to be the only true Religion
3) Intolerance – Anti-Jewish and anti-Christian sentiments abound in their Qur’an

Just to name 3

It is that warped and inflexible religious slant that governs their mentality and behaviour.

It is impossible to live in harmony with such a group that CANNOT adapt nor change. It is un-islamic to negotiate or compromise. Their demands are Allah's demand - no ifs or buts.

This is NOT a racial issue since Muslims come from all races and most are born here. Many other races coped their share of criticism BUT never before did any alien group make such impossible demands on our way of life like Islam.

It is always "WE" who must change to accommodate "THEM". And if we don’t or can’t bend far enough for them, friction will always going to be we us – until Islam eventually obtains what it wants.

God help us and protect Australia!

THINK WITH HUMAN FACE APEC - APEC SMALL VILLAGE ECONOMIES NEED APEC"S FOCUS.

HAS APEC FORGOTTEN IT"S VILLAGE FARMERS.

South East Asia an Overlooked Success - Farmers who have given up a source of their livelihood, where governments had succeeded in slashing poppy cultivation are struggling to find subsistance - livilhood - an income.

Alternative economic strategics required

We ALL have the knowledge to help DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS.

SHARE OUR pro-active knowledge!

We MUST PROBLEM SOLVE!

The border zone between Burma, Thailand and Laos that was once the world's most prolific supplier of opium, is still on conflict on issues of liberty and livilhood.

BURMA:Myanmar's 53 million people wish for support to restore civilian rule. Political roadmap needs to be as inclusive, participatory and transparent as possible.

Farmers have no income. More has to be done to find alternative crops and enterprises to help village farmers and their families.
Burma's "roadmap" is not working. Situation is still extremely fragile...

Displaced People in Burma Call for International Action and Economic Support.

GET UP AUSTRALIA - HELP APEC FIND FOCUS for APEC"S VILLAGE FARMERS

http://www.miacat.com/
.

coach - I think you have encaptulated my response perfectly. Nothing further need be said

Coach and Foxydude

I agree with both Coach's post and Foxydudes summary.

Why do we need anti-racism policies to protect Muslims,when often we are confronted by Islamic religious bigotry which threatens to murder all non believers?The media commentators are right,the moderates condone Islamic extremism by their silence.Silence to us is tacit approval.

When will we know that people have finally been 'integrated'? What does an 'integrated' person look like? Why does everyone have to be 'integrated'?

I think it should be left to the individual to decide how much they want or don't want to be integrated.

Meanwhile I think it's mainly a large segment of White Christian Australians (who've been [let's face it] living in one gigantic White Christian ghetto for far too long) who should be the focus of any 'integration' effort. They're the ones that need to be eased in to the realities of this world.

Strayan -"it is White christian Australians who should be the focus of any intregration effort"

I as a white Australian would be very happy to have one of my children marry a muslim if they would stop being so fundamentalist and stop wearing those robes. Because if my child marries a muslim any granddaughters will be expected to wear robes and I do not want this for my granddaughters. The wearing of robes by women throughout history has always gone hand in glove with the repression of women. Argue that point as you may history reveals this over and over. Early christian times included.

The muslim people are a handsome race very much like the
Greeks. The Australians and the Greeks have intermarried(intregrated) extensively. The only thing stopping this intregration with the muslims is the wearing of those robes.

The prophet Mohammed apparently ordered the weaaring of the robes in a time of conquest when women werent safe on the streets. Those times are gone so there seems to be no real reason to wear those robes anymore. When muslims can accept this it will free the way for true intregration.

When I was a girl it was expected that hats would be worn in a christian church by women. Hats were always worn in church at weddings. That has long been questioned and disregarded and people who no longer wear hats to church havent been struck down by God enmasse yet, in fact most of them a very happy and prosperous.
I think God or Allah would have too much sense to get that upset about hats and headdress. It is only mankind that gets stupid ideas about these things.

I actually find anything written about Islam by Islam interesting yet there is always the same question in my mind with Islam..."How can Islam be anything but Islam". The great global plan to gobble up everything will never change. Islam is Islam. It has never deviated from the great global plan. I have a christian friend who was born in Egypt, into a born again christian family, who some years ago went home to Egypt to visit relatives and when he was there he decided to sneak into the great Islamic University in Cairo and spy out what the lecturers were teaching the young muslims. Here he heard the great Islamic global plan to consume all other religious systems. Some muslims were to do it by violence, others were to do it more gently by sidling up to western politicians and jumping up and down to get open doors for the spread of the Koran and for the construction of staging bases known as mosques. He was astounded at what he heard. Whether its called moderate Islam or political Islam or violent Islam its all Islam. How can Islam be other than Islam? Everyone must be for Allah or....................

I started to get concerned about local Islam about a year or so ago when an reliable, much trusted source began talking about a close friend who had entered the dark world of some of Sydneys muslim extremists to be shown caches of rifles and ammunition stored away for the great day of jihad here in Australia. ASIO would have known about this for many years but would have been much hamstrung me thinks by multiculturalisms demands for "pussy pussy" with the muslims. I often wondered also if Islam here had been having quiet chats with Islam in Indonesia about the future take-over of Australia. I actually have a photocopy of a photo that shows a map in Indonesian classrooms portraying all of the land north of Townsville QLD as "South Irian". Now that Russia is in some military deal with Indonesia (over 1 billion dollars of military technology) I'm getting somewhat more concerned. I would like to see some guns in the defence dept. arsenal for a citizens home guard defence force. Following Pt. Arthur the PM took all of the semi-automatic rifles and pump actions off the gun clubbers and the farmers and the loss was never compensated for in those arsenals. Not to my knowledge.

There are no moderate Muslims. Period. There are only those that preach hate and kill, and those that make excuses and blame others.

The biggest internal challenge facing Australian Muslims, and the he biggest hurdle to Islamic integration in the West, is the fact that Islam is incompatable with Western values of equality, human freedoms. Just take a look at Islamic societies!

Here we have, once again, an Islamic writer making excuses. Once again he refuses to look at the hate and violence in the QUran and the vile deeds of his dear Prophet.

Note this new article in Timesonline about British Muslims.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2402973.ece
Note that they teach hate and violence when talking among themselves (Muslims). Note that their leader uses "his extensive knowledge of the Koran and the life and sayings of the prophet Muhammed to justify his hostility to the kuffar, or non-Muslims."

If you read the hadiths and early biographies of Mohammad, you will find a story of war, plunder, slavery, torture, lies, treachery, and rape - and wife beating. These were written by his friends and followers. Yet Muslims, Austalians Muslims, love and respect this guy. He is a "great moral example".

That says it all.

Once again, there is no Moderate Islam. There is only a "pretend it is moderate until we can do to the Kuffir what our dear prophet did long ago" Islam.

Kactuz

Coach is 100% correct, and if possible, 101% correct.

Indian Muslims wanted an Islamic state to fulfill their dream for Shariah law and a Caliphate. Come 1947 Britain gave them Pakistan and about 2 million Hindus, Sikh, and non-Muslims and a small number of Muslims were killed in the ensuing riots.

This year India and Pakistan celebrate their 60 years of independence. India is fast developing into one of the largest economies of the world whereas Pakistan has been classified a failed state. After having killed the Hindus in Pakistan, the Muslims have chased all the non-Muslims away. Now the Muslims are fighting among themselves.

Prime minister Thaksin of Thailand was blamed for being tough on the Muslim rebels in south Thailand. He was kicked out by a Thai Muslim general (Sonthi). Currently the situation in south Thailand is getting out of hand. Almost on a daily basis a couple of Buddhists are shot to death by Muslims riding on motor bikes.

In Germany 2 of the 3 would-be bombers are white-German Muslims(recent converts) and trained in Pakistan. Germany is worried about its white-German Muslims as they [Germany] are now getting the message that Islam is a violent religious-political system.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/5115109.html

Malaysia is an example of a “moderate” Muslim state. However, they practice an apartheid system where Malay-Muslims have distinct advantages like jobs in government, a certain percentage of a company must employ Malay-Muslims, etc. Fifty years ago when it became an independent country, Malay-Muslims formed about 50% of the population, but now about 65%, as many non-Muslims have migrated to other countries. Day by day the country is slipping downwards into economic backwardness. The Muslims blamed their economic slow-down on ‘colonialism’ and adopting Shariah law would address the problem!
http://www.littlespeck.com/new/CForeign-My-070904.htm

Its time non-Muslims countries, say Australia, propose to Saudi Arabia (or some Muslim countries) that X number of churches or Y number of temples be built [for newly converted ex-Muslims to Christianty or Buddhism] in Saudi Arabia, if they say ‘no’, then X or Y number of mosques will be closed down in Australia

Saeed Khan, when you say, "A national campaign against racism could do wonders not just for Australian Muslims but for many other emerging cultural and religious groups." Which way are your fingers pointing? Outward or inward?

Most of what needed to be said has been, but I wish to add a note regarding the article which puzzled me.

Saeed said:

A)
Non religious youth centres are essential to engage youth into sports, volunteering and other positive activities such as arts.

B)
Undoubtedly, if Australian Muslims are to overcome their challenges, they must undertake long-term community development by promoting self-help. But they should not be doing it alone and all levels of government and other communities should also be lending them a hand.

COMMENT:
It seems odd that in "A" above, he says 'Non Religious' which should mean that non just Muslim youth have access, but all.

Then in "B" he says "we" should give "them" a helping hand.

I suggest a much better solution is to seek to blurr the dividing line between communities rather than accentuate it.

There is nothing better to reduce communal friction than personal interaction at a multi ethnic level.

Out of such non sectarian interaction come friendships, respect.. (along with the usual does of some people getting up the nose of others) and out of those can come intermarriage and a reducing of the dividing lines from 'bold' to 'normal'.

A pre-requisite for this ONEness to work, would be the abandonment in the Islamic community of insistence on a non muslim partner becoming Muslim. The viability of this would need to be field tested among communities, and I think the results of such a survey would produce more pessimism than optimism for successful integration.

"WE" 'wasps' and other mainstream Australians regard integration as:

'joining our cultural/religious club'

"THEY" (muslims, Hindus, Chinese etc) may (some may not) view it differently, and in terms of their own socio/cultural/religious values being fully preserved in any intermarriage.

*sigh*... nothing is easy, but it is a worthwhile issue to explore seriously..and as with anything we should to the SWAT analysis, and pay particular attention to the "T" (threats) part, before we become too jolly and enthusiastic that we are on the threshhold of a new social utopian millennium

sharkfin, there you go again trying to control what other women wear. You then claim to be taking an anti-oppressive stance!

Meanwhile, for the rest of you painting the picture of 'backward Muslims' and the 'failures of Islam', I suggest you do some research on the American Muslim success story.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/483/muslim-americans

"one in five Muslims in the UK, France, Germany and Spain earn low incomes compared with the general public, while in the US it's a miniscule two per cent of Muslims who are low income compared to other Americans." http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/asra_nomani/2007/05/after_printing_the_new_pew.html

"Sixty percent of Muslims in the United States own their own homes. Believe it or not, the median income for a Muslim household in America is greater than it is for a non-Muslim household." http://www.slate.com/id/2158114/entry/2158168/

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6041929&sc=emaf

I wonder what a good collective noun would be to describe a group of Islamophobes - because, with the exception of strayan, that's what we have here.

A vomit of bigots?
A fruitcake of nutters?
A pustule of xenophobes?
A klan of racists?

Any other suggestions welcome :)

As for this -

Sharkbrain: "The muslim people are a handsome race very much like the Greeks."

Sheer, unabashed racism. You clowns deserve each other.

Nicely put CJ; I was wondering how long this little racist love-in would continue as I was scrolling down the thread!

What do you call people..who are empty of argument but full of abuse (not that its even well thought out abuse.. 'racist' when the issue is about 'religion').. as I've said.. if u blokes want to look like dills.. don't do it so publically..the most sticky mud is that which is thrown by yourselves.

Lets do some math.

1/ If 600 out of 1300 mosques in UK are controlled/run by a radical sect... (thats virtually half) by what criteria then do we define 'moderate' or 'mainstream'? Considering that "Mainstream" could equally apply to the 600 radical mosques as to the 700 non radical.

Now..a thought out answer to that might go well.

2/ If those leading such a movement which controls half the mosques in the UK are openly espousing anti semitic ideas.. Anti Jewish anti Christian..and there speeches are avaiable in full on the net... why do people simply decide to go into 'denial' and play the man rather than the ball when people draw attention to it ?

CONCLUSION.. I suspect that there is a vested interest...a family connection...some closet Muslims.. something like that. Strayan seems quite 'pro Islam' but his very lame (and by Ginxs reasoning 'racist') claim that Muslim Americans are doing better... welllll... what does that have to do with anything?.. I mean..what?

Are you trying to say indirectly that "Muslims are better" than Americans? or non muslim Americans? that is about as racist as it gets and I fully expect a humble apology to non muslim Americans for such outright racism in your next post Strayan.

RECOMMENDATION. Hmmm I know.. engage with the arguments raised in the article.. yep..that would be good. No more cheap empty shots from CJ, Ginx or Strayan.

It doesn't how much you try to put a nice face on it islam is a particularly dangerous kind of nastiness even more stupid than the other religions; or maybe just as stupid. the globe needs to have a line drawn betwen muslim territory and the rest and let the big fight-to-annihalation begin. If someone is so proud to be a 'moderate' muslim why be a muslim at all. religion is all or nothing when it comes down to it. religion is the proof of just how stupid human beings can be.

CJ Morgan - How is saying the Muslims are a handsome people racist. I could have said they were repulsive and ugly. Its the fundamentalism of the religion I dont like. There are few ugly races in the world most races have nobility and handsomness. The dignity of the human being shines through.

My whole purpose in writing these posts is to promote intermarriage betwen the races in Australia as I see that being the only way to unity and peace in the long run. But I cannot accept my children marrying into a religion that will opress their freedoms. So the point I am making is that in the case of the muslims it is the religion standing in the way of intregration.

Strayan-Thats rich! Saying that I'm trying to control what women wear. The muslim religion wins hands down on that one. I'm saying I object to women being told what to wear.

What is it with human beings and silly hats and headdresses. The silly hats the bishops and cardinals wear in the christian church is another example, then there's the silly turbin the Indians wear on their head because of religion. Then the jews with that silly little cap on their heads. Then theres the silly fez worn by the Turks is that connected to religion too or just a national dress?
I always say beware of people wearing silly hats and headdresses on their heads when its not for fun. The scary part is these people are serious.

Muslims represent about 1.5% of all Australians and as Muslim connotes ethnicity and origin as well as faith, there is a great deal of diversity among the 300,000 or so Muslims in Australia. Yet it is Australians (the other 98.5%) who are responsible for setting the social and cultural stage for integration.

If faith is the source of identity, then in order to “validate Muslim as an Australian identity”, an Australian Muslim's allegiance needs to be to the country first, and the ideology second. Will fully-integrated Muslims agitate for theological reform and distance themselves from radical Islam? Will they “out” the extreme teachings of their imams? Are they willing to become partners in counter-terroism?

The government could provide “help for self-help”, at the taxpayer’s expense, or the generous donor who has just provided $600,000 for the new mosque in downtown Parramatta could step up to the plate.

While I appreciate Khan's suggestion, it is going to be very difficult to justify the costs unless the public sees that this will provide effective, grassroots counter-terroism measures, is good public policy, or is indeed socially responsible.

Lack of integration and the alienation of a whole political/religious group, eventually finds an outlet in violence, however, as Cronulla demonstrated, both Muslims and non-Muslims will jump into the fray.
Disaffection of youth, particularly young men, is not a Muslim phenomenon. It is something that society at large is concerned about. Conversion to Islam is not the solution Australians crave.

"Islamophobia" is how Muslims describe the culture-war we're involved in, and anyone who wishes to participate in this dialogue from the western side is labelled an Islamophobe if they are critical of Islam.

Khan writes "Islamic women are denied a voice".

Before we see Muslims integrated, a major cultural revolution within Muslim society needs to take place, one that allows criticism of Islam and a voice for women. In the meantime, compromises are being made within our institutions, and the result is not integration, but the emergence of Muslim special interests.

Dear BOAZ_David and ‘the slow end of the racist bandwagon’

Assuming that you have read the whole article:

- close your eyes for 10 seconds and shake your heads
- open your eyes and read your repulsive comments….

In case you don’t throw up, go get some HELP

Reading this whole sorry thread has reminded me of why I no longer bother posting on threads relating to Islam. I normally just let the ranters go, in the hope that they won't contaminate non-Islamic threads. Doesn't seem to work though....

Dear Sad Saed :)

mate.. let's get real here.

1/ "Which" of my words are 'repulsive' ? I actually REPORTED words.. many of them..
a)Yours
b)TimesOnLine's

2/ Please show me which of my words mention 'RACE' ? and can hence be described as 'racist' ?

I encourage people to engage with the arguments raised in your article.. I do so myself..by discecting 2 comments which appear to be contradictory, and I'm then declared repulsive, likely throw up when I re-read them etc.? (sounds like the beginnings of an inquisition to me :)

This would make a fascinating psychological study Saeed.. how
a) I can provide a differing but analytical scrutiny of an opinion piece
b) How others (namely you) can then use all manner of innapropriate terminology and verbal slurr to denegrate not only what I wrote, but me also.

I still don't 'get' how you can say that youth need 'non religious' help (which is a non racist statement) but in the next breath 'we' should help the 'Muslims' which is clearly a racist statement. I don't mean it is racist in a really nasty way, I mean it simply takes 'race' into account in considering policy. But even that's incorrect.. because "Islam" has nothing to do with 'race' and everything to do with 'religion'.

Do you follow me here ?

I sense a lot of racism, hate and intolerance in your words.. is that the case? See.. we can all play that game.. just drag those volatile words out at the drop of a hat for anyone who disagrees with us. One problem though.. 'water off a duckies back' to me :) because my weapons are 'argument, fact and reported fact'.

By all means take issue...but with those things..not with 'me'.

Boazy: "...my weapons are 'argument, fact and reported fact'."

Except that all too often Boazy's "facts" turn out to be distortions, exaggerations and outright falsehoods. However, when he's confronted with evidence of this, he typically cuts and runs off to another thread without addressing his dishonesty.

As in this case: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=975#17259

CJ..there is little point of responding to your 'predictable' babble, because no matter how spot on my 'facts' are... you dispute them anyway and describe them as you did here.

Show me ANy report of an event which cannot be described as containing 'selection and emphasis' ...

In this particular case, the issue of space/chaplains has a history. The problem to me is the provision of 'ablutions' for Muslims.. not so much space for them to meet. (as long as that space is shared)

If the only requirement was 'space' for prayer etc.. any class room will do, but the provision of 'ablutions' is much more than 'space' shared or otherwise.

Even if there are specific Christian chapels on campus.. it does not negate the intrusion of Islam into the cultural solidarity aspect of Australian society. Next thing you will be campaigning for 'the Family' to have equal space. (you remember.. David Golberg.. David Moses.. sex, sex, sex between adults and children in the 'Children of God' cult)

Sorry.. Islam holds up what we would regard as a child molester as the example for all to follow.. they don't regard him as a child molester.. but that is their problem not ours. Our problem is how to limit the intrusion of such ideas into acceptable social discourse.

What you miss is the bigger picture. This is but one small example of the overall clash of cultures/religions which confront us.
The Ham sandwich affair was another. The deceptive school acquisition is another.. the steam rolling of local sentiment for the prayer hall in Baulkham hills is another. The Sheikh saying "We all support Hezbollah" is another.. Hilalays outbursts are more... the list is becoming quite extensive now.

By all means take issue with deliberate misrepresentations.. but don't confuse them with sincere understanding of facts thus far.
You are right to make a word of caution, and I respect that. What I don't respect is the mindless head in the sand-ism which is blind to reality overall.

David B

There is so much wrong with CJ Morgan's position that it is just not worth bothering with.

In fact we have new collective noun

A morgan of morons.

Actually the Holy Bible says that central asian/middle east Islam is doomed so, though concerned about Australian and regional Islam and its progress, I know the end is set as far as Islam is concerned. In Revelation 9:16 and 16:12 we see the KINGS OF THE EAST asian confederacy army moving out of the east (China lead I'd say) out across asia, crossing the Euphrates River and moving on to Israel and Armageddon. Along the way this great asian army (200 million soldiers) devours a third of mankind. Thats all of India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq etc. I actually got a copy a few years back of a prophecy- in- print from a pastor by the name of Jack Burrell (What will become of Australia by Jack Burrell 1975) in which Jack speaks about a two-part vision he had from The Lord one night showing an enemy moving down through northern India into South East Asia and on into Australia as far south as Byron Bay NSW. Part 2 of Jacks vision showed refugees flooding south back into southern States and preparations for a land battle in southern QLD. There are many revelations about this invader amongst the penetcostals. Most speaking about the sins of the people as to why God would allow these enemy soldiers here at that time. Luke chapter 21 is also interesting. I go with The Word of God. China devours Islam. China builds today for the great outward march.

Re: opinion by: coach
congrads, u said it all (I couldn't have put it better) i agree 100%
Muslims will Never integrate...they can't.
the best the Gov can do to aviod the problems in the UK..
is to limit the immigration (by stelth like they did the vietnamese)
of Muslims to this country...
Otherwise
GOD help Australia, ALLAH wont.
If the Muslims think they are marginalised in Australia? GET TO THE END OF THE LINE...Indigenous Australians have been FIRST inline for 200 yrs.
MY MSG YOU'LL HAVE TO WAIT IT MAY TAKE 200YRS+

Religion is Opium for the Masses,
Whether it be, Christian, Hindu, Islam, Buddist, etc...
It provides hope, where none exist,
It provokes war, when other solutions would work,
It engenders security within its beliefs however wrong they are...
It is as addictive as opium and just as dangerous.
To all Australians, be forever vigilant.
THE ENEMY EXISTS WITHIN.
-

China may well devour Islam but in the mean time,they will use Islam to defeat the West.Russia have lots of oil and natural gas but the US is trapped in the Middle East with no choices.Russia is also a problem for us because they are about to sell new arms techology to Indonesia.China and Russia are two very powerful totalitarian states which freedom of the individual does not rate a mention when the power of their states are in question.

Notice how we have less freedoms where Islamic terrorism is concerned?We are slowly becoming like them and their totalitarian ways are very similar to China,Russia and the Nazis.

If climate change is real and becomes dramatic,then real global tensions will create a lot of instability whereby really powerful Nations like China will seize their opportunity to secure both energy and resources.The baby boomers have probably lived in the best of times.

It's amusing to watch Boazy wriggle. In the midst of an Islamophobic rant on another thread, he wrote:

"Now..is it not the law of the land NOT to make laws promoting particular religions? Or.. can a secular UNI make discriminatory provision for one religion but not others ? Yet in the 'prayer rooms at UWS' that 'line' has been crossed..or do you see it differently?"

I pointed out to Boazy that, in common with every other Australian university of which I'm aware, UWS has long had dedicated Christian chapels, colleges etc - and I provided reliable evidence to support that assertion. His argument above is, of course, shown to be entirely disingenuous at best.

In this thread, Boazy dissembles, firstly claiming he was actually talking about 'ablutions'... that he failed to mention. I don't suppose you'd have a verifiable reference for this 'ablutions' issue, would you Boazy? I only ask because this is the first we've heard pf this apparently culture-threatening phenomenon.

Boazy then reverts to form by launching into a gratuitous rant about child sex and ham sandwiches. This is the same guy who displayed a marked absence of sympathy for the victims in the recent thread about child abuse by Christian clergy.

Give us a break.

As for the other charming comments - I take Johnj's point about the unfortunate predictability of any thread to do with Islam in this forum. However, so long as you don't take them too seriously, I think that OLO's lunatic fringe are quite fun to engage with :)

Besides which, it's always nice to provide an alternative to the 'fear and loathing' brigade.

What a surprise! Boazy and all his other lunatic friends raving on as usual about the evil Muslims and other assorted conspiracy theories. What a pity Boazy's God isn't fighting for him in Iraq. Where is this big brave God of Boazy's? Has he fallen asleep? This God doesn't seem to be helping Bush or the other conservatives win this War on Terror.

Boazy and his type have been wrong about what's going on in the world for the last 2000 years and they'll continue to be wrong for the next 2000 years.

Coach,
In the very first posting on this thread, I think you have accurately and concisely put the situation into perspective. This is supported by the information posted by Phillip Tang.

I think it speaks volumes that no one has challenged what either of you said. Most likely because they cannot!

I hope you don't mind if I retain both postings for future reference.

Well done.

Saeed,

As a Christian, I wish those who agree with you well. (Christianity has and could again face a similar situation - indeed already does in some parts of the world).

But as you can see from many of the comments on your article, Muslims face an uphill battle. Racism is very deeply seated in this country, and the media are every ready to fan the flames.

And with the major political powers having decided that Islam is a convenient replacement for Communism, an enemy required in order to be a cover for Western plunder of the weak and to keep the mug punters at home under the thumb, what do you do? The powers want more fundamentalism and more terrorists. That is why they are working so hard to create more of both.

I can only suggest education about how the system works, education of Muslims and others. That is what I am trying to do within my own community, in my own small way.

...john

Peppy.... now that wasn't nice. "Lunatic"... "Evil" muslims....

err.. I don't recall calling Muslims "Evil".... "Islam"..now that is a different story, but please keep your facts straight.

Speaking of which......

John Koski.. you claim to be a Christian.. so.. I'll believe you, but also offer a bit if a prod in the Lords name.. about your terminology.

You.. (along with many others) used the word 'racism'... and I cannot for the life of me see why?

I've not mentioned 'race'...and I don't think others have..
"RACE" is about ethnicity.. "RELIGION" is about what people (of any ethnicity) believe.

So..if RELIGION should NOT be a part of this social equation (i.e. the issue of becoming well adjusted contributors to mainstream society) why... why is Saeed mentioning "Muslim" youth.. rather than 'youth'? It seems he is asking for some kind of special religion related treatment.. 'more youth centres'.. more exposure to the 'arts'..ok.. agreed..but why for 'MUSLIM' youth ? and not 'YOUTH'....

Do you see the problem ? If there are large concentrations of Muslim youth who have problems relating to society..why does he not suggest they embrace a 'mainstream' faith.. like Christianity. Lebanese Christians have NO trouble relating to mainstream society.

It seems to me that the problem is in the religious aspect itself.. rather than society.

JOHN.. perhaps you missed it..but during the Cronulla period, but one of the Muslim youth workers stated on national TV that Muslim youth regard themselves as SUPERIOR to Aussies and hate western values. How do you process that ?

Just a little afterthought.

The 'heap big' Sheikh of Lakemba mosque.. who was the darling of the Lebanese Muslim community.. apparently is a bigamist...having FOUR wives and LOTS of children.

My source ? :) (CJ.. are you drooling yet for another chance to stick in another pin into your Boaz effigy in that dark room ? :)

My source...is.......... HILALY himself.

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s1058934.htm

"When the Koran talks about one of these people in the old times, he refers to him as a “man” and not a “male”. Some think that manhood means making children. But I tell you, and I have four wives and plenty of children, that this is not true. Don’t think that the true meaning of manhood is restricted to having children."

*ouch*... I felt that one CJ..you must move your computer to another room mate, make sure there is some natural light too k

So... given the support of the Lebanese Muslim community...and of Mr "Friendly Moderation" Kaysar Trad.... it appears that the Muslim community contains a large number of people who hold to values (by supporting Hilali) which are illegal in Australia and abhorrent to most women. No wonder their offspring have issues of social adjustment.

Lebanese Maronites and Orthodox.. Monogamous.. no problemo.

BOAZ_David,

You are right. I should not have used "racism". I sloppily used it as a shorthand for intolerance and unwillingness to understand differences in race, religion, nationality, colour, dress codes, etc. That is, anything that is NOT LIKE US!

But I repeat, there is a bigger picture that should not be ignored. If I enter the house of my neighbour, kill him, rape and kill his wife, steal his valuables and then set fire to his house, and then the next day some of his friends or relations or religious brothers come and bomb my house, of course they are acting unlawfully and unacceptably and the police should deal with them. But to fail to bring into the equation my actions is either ignorance of the facts or sheer hypocrisy.

I cannot comment on whether region should be part of whether religion should taken into account in regard to the issue of becoming well adjusted contributors to mainstream society, except to give the Christian point view: viz NO. It is totally against Christian teaching to require conformity in religion (despite some examples in history that we can think of to the contrary).

I assume everyone thinks their values are superior to those of others in all matters of human culture. If they did not surely they would not believe in them. The problem is if they try and force those ideas on others. If you claim that is indeed the problem, see paragraph two above.

...john

“The key now is to find ways of using these [new] voices proactively instead of defensively and reactively”

At a glance, admitting that the Saudi Government has bank-rolled political Islam to build mosques and schools in this country, is a bold move. However, going on to label them as “spreading conservatism”, rather than “radicalism”, sounds a little tired.

Phillip: The precondition for allowing Saudi funding of the launching bases of the wahhabis here in Australia should be for churches to be built on Saudi soil. But this hasn’t happened, and it is not going to happen. The West do not have a legitimate right to call for changes in Saudi internal affairs

The problem gets right back to the points raised by coach – Islam is theocratic, we cannot suppress Muslim politics without suppressing their faith, we are in a great bind if we continue to label “Islam” as a religion. Kactuz: you're right, the label “political” is redundant.

It is “political Islamists (who) want Muslims to feel victimized”…. so does this mean that hiijab-wearing women who claim that they get spat on when they do their shopping are lying?

On Dr Tanya Dreher: Her piece of scholarship on community and media reaction immediately following 9/11 shows a very ugly side of Australian society, Muslim women being abused, terrified of going out onto the streets, concerned for the safety of their children. Thankfully, we have laws to protect anyone so targeted.
Putting women so visibly on the frontline, in a time when emotions are running amok must be the work of the “political Islamists” too.

The Bible shows us how to live, and it is just as appropriate now as for first century Christians:

‘Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone”. Romans 12:17-18

Saeed: your response to opinions expressed here was not proactive. It was disappointingly defensive and reactive. By your own definition, you have nothing to contribute here.

BOAZ_David, you seem quite alarmed about statements and behaviours of people who subsribe to the Islamic faith.

I am not alarmed. I am not afraid, I do not worry and I am not scared or threatened by anyone (especially a person who spends a good portion of their waking day in prayer).

Now why is this? Why are you alarmed and I am not? What's the difference between a person is persistantly worried and some who is never worried? What do you call someone who sees threats everywhere? Insecure? Why is it that I can sit back and comfortably accommodate people who do not share my religious beliefs (and I [hope I] don't have any) without it causing me any distress?

Wouldn't you like to know what's it's like to feel safe and secure for once BOAZ_David?

I am sick and tired of Islam, Hijabs, Habibs, Mosques in this country,
Jihads, all the abs..How far did u want us to bend over again mate?
Why did u all come to this country in the first place? Why didn't you all go to Malaysia? or Brunei? they'd welcome you all with open
Hijabs!...after all there are 350million muslims just to our north, I will gladly help anyone of you pack. If you think that Australians are going to stand by and become like England, Think Again, when push comes to shove, the Aussie Spirit will ignite like a bunger on cracker nite mate; Cronulla will seem like a sunday school picnic, and remember after all you are only 1% of the population. Have a look at the other 1% (the indigenous) that caused problems. Savvy -

Hi there Strayan... believe it or not.. I totally appreciate that response..and the questions raised.

I'll do my best to answer them..

Let me begin by picking up on one point.

You say "I am not alarmed. I am not afraid, I do not worry and I am not scared or threatened by anyone (especially a person who spends a good portion of their waking day in prayer)."

Fair point. I kind of get the feeling that you might be hinting I'm
-Obsessed :)
-Deluded
-Insecure.. (you mention this one)

Well actually its like a sledge hammer to a thumb tack :) but no problem.

My problem is this.. 'what is the nature' of the God to whom they are praying..and what are the likely values that will be strengthened through such prayer?

You see.. if I spend a lot of time praying...to Lucifer..Satan.. well..you can fill in the gaps there.... right ?

Bottom line...the way 'PRAYER' effects is, depends 100% on the 'nature' of the god/Deity we pray to... that's the key point... 'aggressive/violent/militant' deity.. aggressive/violent/militant followers.

a) If the Deity you are praying to has told you clearly and unmistakably to 'defend' him or his name or his community from attacks of a verbal, or physical kind..
b) The community you are a part of based on worship of this deity is considered homogenous..'one' body...
c) Somewhere in the world.. members of that body are being persecuted

Then...your prayer life will consist of "Oh Deity..strengthen me and help me to fight those attacking us"

That support might be of a material,financial or physical kind.

If there is any flaw in my common sense reasoning here, please point it out.....point by point :)

strayan said: "Meanwhile I think it's mainly a large segment of White Christian Australians (who've been [let's face it] living in one gigantic White Christian ghetto for far too long) who should be the focus of any 'integration' effort."

Who are these 'white' people? The reason I ask is that many people from tradtionally Muslim nations are quite pale in complexion. But yet you obviously distinguish between people of Turkic, Persian or Arabic backgrounds and Australia's British/European descended majority.

As for a wider integration effort, why should Australia's founding population be forced to give up aspects of its culture in order to accommodate voluntary newcomers? Why is it noble for Third World peoples to preserve their culture, but 'xenophobic' or 'racist' for Westerners to demand the same right?

Whilst I'm not a Muslim, I am a Christian who believes in the modest dress standards of women and men. Yes, this means I am covered from my neck down to my ankles, by faith and choice. However, am I oppressed, hamstrung or a "second class" citizen, far from it. I am liberated, I am liberated because I don't have to worry about how a skin tight ultra micro mini skirt would look, I don't have to worry about how my stomach looks in a micro short shirt. Men don't glare at me with lustful intent or are only interested in my body. I am connected to with my mind, I am respected because of who I am inside, not outside. I haven't always been this way, when I was younger, yes I did the short skirt thing. But, now I am very much liberated. So please before you criticize how Muslims and some Christian faiths choose to dress, we are exercising our freedom of choice. You may choose to dress differently, that is your choice. Mine is to be modest, and liberated with it.

zahira,

Welcome

I admire your sense of modesty - I was brought up in a culture that respected that.

However covering in Islam it is not only about modesty but an obligation imposed on all women. It's the law. So no freedom of choice... no need to exercise your brain if you are a good muslim - you are a slave of its regulations.

More and more women in the west wear veils now as a sign of identity and visibility - it is more a political statement and an act of defiance - no matter how they are dressed (or not) underneath their tents.