You are right again Dave.

Dave for PM!

I agree that the pugilistic arts may be helpful to boys, I am not disputing that. I am merely offering alternatives. I have experienced, personally, the confidence that arises from studying martial arts. I merely wish to make the point that self defence is a vital skill and discipline for all - male and female.

Tenets of Tae Kwon Do (similar to tenents in other martial arts)

Courtesy
Students must always show respect to their instructors, to senior students and to all others. Students must be polite and encourage a sense of justice. Students must constantly look within themselves and not be quick to judge others.

Integrity
One must be able to define right from wrong, and if wrong, then to feel remorse. Inside the training room, a student should honestly attempt to do what the instructor asks. Outside, students must not misrepresent or rationalise their behaviour.

Perseverance
Things of value are not easy to attain. Peseverance and patience are required to excel at anything. Perseverance means, sticking to it. If you fail the first time, then try again and again, confident that if your endeavour is worthy, then you will succeed.

Self Control
This tenet is extremely import both inside and outside the training room. Whether you are sparring or conducting a business meeting, it is important that you have self control in your dealings with other people. When you can control yourself, you will be able to work comfortably and confidently with others.

Indomitable Spirit
Never be afraid of yourself or your own judgement. Indomitable spirit is what enables you to keep your ideals and your identity against overwhelming pressures. It is the strength to reject the things that everyone else is doing, if you believe them to be wrong.

The martial arts skills learned in Tae Kwon Do are to be used to prevent conflict and violence. Never should a Tae Kwon Do student initiate physical conflict, and the techniques of Tae Kwon Do should only be used as a last resort in self defence or in the defence of another person.

I must respond to Pedant's question about the Biblical perspective on fighting.

I don't want to pretend to have all the answers on this front, but let me say that I don't see Jesus as being nearly as wimpy as most movie-makers have depicted Him (Mel Gibson excepted). Indeed, my reading of the Garden of Gethsemene scene in the Bible that you refer to is that Jesus was prepared for a fight until He realised that it just wasn't God's will to resist the inevitable, as indicated by the fact that His disciples couldn't even stay awake to stand guard (presumably having downed one too many at the last supper).

You make an important point about King David though too, and it's a good indicator that the Bible does not glorify violence, but it certainly does affirm that there's 'a time to fight'.

While I'm here, let me make on final comment on Taekwondo. I don't want to knock taekwondo, and see it as one of the better arts, particularly as it is a sport and not simply a form of 'self-defence', but I think that it is highly over-rated as a form of self-defence, particularly for women.

I've trained women and girls for 15 years now, including having one of my girls win the Australain lightweight title (kickboxing) and in fighting, weight is everything. The sorts of guys who attack women are big nasty bastards, and the best kicks in the world from a small women are not likely to have a big effect. I say this only because I worry that so many of these arts instill a false degree of over-confidence in practitioners.

I teach self-defence too on occasions (I use a variation on the 'panic attack' system). I've taught it to police, to prison-wardens, to church security groups and to women's groups, but the strategy I teach women especially has nothing to do with teaching them how to win a stand-up fight. It's all about distracting the attacker with one quick hit and then taking off as quickly as possible.

Father Dave I think you missed the point of my post. As stated I am not disputing that boxing may well be a good discipline for young boys. Nor am I interested in your opinions on women learning martial arts. I have personally benefitted from them and know many other women who have also. But this is not my point.

I posted the 5 Tenents of Tae Kwon Do (and it could be any other martial art) to impart the type of discipline that it and other martial arts can offer young children. Thats all. Defensive skills are wonderful exercise and confidence building. However, these skills alone do not create a man who is a better partner, father, citizen or man - if only it was that simple. However it is a good place to start.

Scout,

I appreciate your perspective and it is good to see you are pasionate about it.

This was to do with boxing, and whilst we appreciate your insight, you are kidding by trying to illustrate that you get the same out of it.

my questions are:

A: Are you male?
B: Have you done both sports, or just one?

if your answer is no to one or both, you are not poised to accurately comment

Great answer Father Dave. I agree that "the Bible does not glorify violence, but it certainly does affirm that there's 'a time to fight'". I don't see Jesus as wimpy (haven't seen Passion of the Christ so not sure how Mel's actor does it), and certainly being crucified is one of the least 'wimpy' ways to die. Jesus just didn't need to fight physically and it can be seen throughout the Gospels (I've tended to skip the movies and go straight to the Book) that He had the authority and confidence for fighting to be unnecessary.

Realist, it's a bit silly to ask Scout if she is male, when from her posts above she is clearly female. She doesn't have to be male to comment but your question 'B:' is a good point and I see that you have done both sports so you are able to comment. Scout did bag (dodgy pun, sorry) boxing when she said 'Martial arts such as Tae Kwon Do, Karate have more to teach about disclipine than the rather more basic boxing'. I think Scout is wrong, which can be partly evidenced by Father Dave's work. Boxing has much to offer boys and men, and also (sorry Maximus, I'm going to have to say it) girls and women. Lauren Burns did a great job winning her Tae-Kwon-Do gold medal at the Sydney Olympics. But in a fight against Sharon Anyos (current junior featherweight world champion trained by boxing legend Jeff Fenech, who once declared "women don't belong in the ring" until Sharon changed his mind), I'd have to put my money on Sharon. Maybe someday we will see women's boxing at the Olympics also.