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The Forum > Article Comments > The forgotten secret of the ancient Greeks > Comments

The forgotten secret of the ancient Greeks : Comments

By Dave Smith, published 8/11/2005

Dave Smith argues the pugilistic arts teaches boys to be better partners, fathers, citizens and men.

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Now I know that Sout is not interested in my opinions on women in the fighting arts, but let me offer some concluding thoughts on this anyway, as the discussion has progressed.

I have been a great advocate of women in the fighting arts. I've been teaching women to fight all my life, have fought with the state govt. over the ban on women in boxing/kickboxing, have been threatened with legal action on numerous occasions for sanctioning female fights, etc. Having said that, I personally believe that most 'self defense' training for women is counter-productive. Why? Because it tends to give women a false over-confidence in their fighting ability.

I've sparred with my mate Holly Fernley - women's world kickboxing champ - on a number of occasions, and she is the only women I've ever encountered who I believe could truly knock me down with a kick. She's a great lady and a great fighter, but most women are never going to get near that level of power. It's all about weight and muscle to weigh ratio, and from a self-defense point of view, if you are a light weight, you need more than flexibility and high kicks to stop a large male assailant.

I don't think this is meant to reflect a negative attitude towards women. I have two daughters, and a wife (who also has a black belt) and I think it's because I care about women that I want to help them be realistic about their chances in a street fight. I teach the 'panic attack' system for women (developed by Tony Blaur in Canada) and recommend Win Chun to women looking specifically for a self-defense system, as this was designed for women.

I don't think this issue is a side-track, as I personally believe that the very reason men are genetically programmed to fight is so that they can defend people who are not able to defend themselves. Frankly the only time I've ever been in a street-fight was to prevent an attempted rape situation.

I've said enough. Catch you guys at www.fatherdave.org some time :-)
Posted by Father Dave, Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:43:23 AM
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Dear Pedant(andSCOUT)

my quip about 'men only' was as much tongue in cheek as anything. Females are welcome here, but the chances of them understanding what goes on in the 'male' mind on this issue are pretty remote. If you don't 'feel' it (due to gender) how can you understand it ? :)

Women have the 'nesting' urge... right or wrong ? I don't really 'understand' it so much as acknowledge it. I mean.. I participate in the 'nesting' because I know it has to be done for the sake of the family, but I don't have the real 'hormonal/genetic' drive to nest like a female does. MY hormonal/genetic response to the female nesting drive is that of protector and provider.

I don't see 'prejudice' in this, I just see nature.

Don't look to me for 'pc attitudes on gender' :) In me you will only find the Biblical approach. Which, if I might add, is very equitable and just. I've often said that I don't object to women working etc, but I DO emphasise that due to the nesting/babies issues, a career is most difficult to persue 'as' a man might. So, in this I see flexibility and creativity as the appropriate direction for females.

Males have to be vigilant and protective. It's not a new thing.
Way back in the time of Ruth (Old testament) BOAZ (my namesake) ordered "Tell the young men not to molest Ruth" (she was a foreigner) so we are also 'predatory' to a degree, (the reproductive urge).

At Bible study I asked the hostess how she would handle a male attacker. "My blood would boil and I'd attack him". I said "lets look at the mechanics of that.. like say a 'big right hand at your face' so.. I said "slow motion, show me how you would deal with it"... I slowly made a right towards her, and she KICKED me :) very well done too.. but my left hand was by my side and my fingies got caught under the impact. Still in pain :) Next time I say SLOWWWWW motion !
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 18 November 2005 7:39:00 AM
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BD (eyes rolling to back of head) "my quip about 'men only' was as much tongue in cheek as anything".

Really?

You made your comments regarding me BEFORE I had even made a post to this thread.

You have been found out and now you are trying to claw you way around the fact that you have a narrow, stereotypical view of women. You also paved the way for some mean little remarks put to me by other male posters. A hair shirt is order for you BD. JC must be shaking his head in sadness at you right now.

As for your little straw poll

"Security Guard "Kick him in the nuts"
Checkout chick "Hit him back"
Video Ezy consultant "don't know"
Gym friend "freeze" "

What the F**k does that prove? If you asked the same question of men you would receive similar answers.

The topic is about the advantages of teaching the pugilistic arts to boys. I have merely pointed out, as have many others to this thread, that the advantages apply equally to girls.

BTW Father Dave - I am under no illusions about my abilities and strengths - however my skills in martial arts DO give me an advantage over those who do not possess any abilities in this area. I have been in situations where I have had to defend myself and can state that the average male will back off if he finds that he has underestimated his intended victim - surprise and speed works. Also I have a longer reach with my foot than the average male has with his fist.

Cheers
Posted by Scout, Friday, 18 November 2005 9:33:31 AM
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Part 1

BOAZ_David, females can understand what goes on in a male mind, the same as males can understand what goes on in a female mind. Otherwise male psychiatrists, psychologists and counsellors could only treat male patients and vice-versa. Gynaecologists and andrologists can be male or female even if they don't have the same genitalia as their patients. God even created male and female in His image. So a female is the made in the image of God (as is a male). Also in the natural world, male and female animals are not restricted to particular roles. In various species, male animals do the 'nesting'. In others, female animals are 'vigilant and protective'.

However I do give you credit for following an assertion that females cannot understand the male mind with a question about the female mind (obviously on your logic you as a male couldn't make an assertion about the female mind). I don't agree with your assertion, but I respect that you are finally making some logical points. But then you go to Bible study and ask the hostess how she would handle a male attacker. Why not just ask her how she would handle an attacker? Please stop trying to make the 'aggressor' role men only.

You do have a narrow, stereotypical view of women. I urge you to broaden your view, and I disagree that your approach is Biblical ( look at Proverbs 31:10-31). I don't look for 'PC' attitudes to gender from you, I look for you to treat people as people, as Jesus did. If people treated each other properly there would be no need for 'PC' attitudes and we could all get along (and even enjoy the odd tongue in cheek joke!). Political correctness stems from actual incorrectness, I will never be sorry for wanting women to be treated as people.
Posted by Pedant, Friday, 18 November 2005 1:26:05 PM
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Part 2

At the same time, I can enjoy a joke. However the joke you made was at Scout's expense, before she even posted to the thread and wasn't very funny. Stick to making jokes about your "fingies" or you can feel free to make jokes about me, I won't be upset. I even like to make self depreciating jokes about myself although I'm not very good at it. Tee hee.

I am sympathetic to the idea of men getting together in an appropriate place and discussing what it means to be men in this day and age and expressing themos (I guess as long as the subject of these discussions isn't how to be men by keeping down women!).

I thought we were doing much better earlier, approaching the "people are on a scale" idea. All people (male or female) have the 'nesting urge' or the 'vigilant and protective urge' or the 'predator urge' or the 'reproductive urge' on a scale. So, to answer your question, some women don't have a nesting urge and some do, and for those that do, some have it more than others. Conversely some men don't have a nesting urge and some do, and for those that do, some have it more than others. If you can agree that people are on a scale, we might be getting closer to agreement. I'm even quite happy to agree that there are more women than men on certain ends of certain scales. I'm quite happy to agree with Father Dave that most women won't beat most men in a fight because of power-to-weight ratio. But he's not denying training to girls on this basis, which is good.

Scout if someone (male or female) is harassing you, then you challenge them and they back down, that's great. If they don't stop and especially they are bigger and stronger than you I'm still with Father Dave and Monty Python on the "run away" thing (as long as you're running to a safer place) or even look around for someone (male or female of course) to help you.
Posted by Pedant, Friday, 18 November 2005 1:28:30 PM
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Pedant

I am intelligent enough to know when to fight and when to flee. And have done both.

Apart from that comment - I appreciate the points you raised in your posts.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 19 November 2005 11:06:31 AM
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