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The Forum > Article Comments > The forgotten secret of the ancient Greeks > Comments

The forgotten secret of the ancient Greeks : Comments

By Dave Smith, published 8/11/2005

Dave Smith argues the pugilistic arts teaches boys to be better partners, fathers, citizens and men.

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Interesting post Hamlet. I note that Standing (the boxer) turned himself into police while Dunn (the other guy) was apprehended [time out for silly mind picture - Dunn Standing]. So maybe boxing is having some discipinary effect.... marginally. Clearly more time in the gym with Father Dave required here. Interesting to see that he was throwing rocks at police (very cowardly and unacceptable behaviour) if he was a Commonwealth Games standard boxer and hit police he could have caused some very nasty injuries.

I note that you recommend football (rugby league, rugby union & grid-iron) as a better alternative to boxing. Football is great, and great for boys. So's boxing. However, if we got into what irresponsible footballers do off the field with their ‘teamwork’ we could be posting for a very long time...
Posted by Pedant, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 8:14:05 PM
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Pedant - really into what you are saying. I don't claim to know all there is about boxing - it just appears to me that there is less of the spiritual/values type thing attached to it than with eastern style martial arts - we can agree to disagree.

I also agree about the balance between defence and offense - I was simply having a go at BD - he is always on the attack and revealed his prejudice and ignorance by calling this a male-only thread. I wish there were some more female posters to this thread.

You were spot on with your observation with regard to wishing I had learned Tae Kwon Do earlier in life.

Look forward to meeting with you on other threads.
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 8:00:37 AM
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I decided not to post on OLO after realising most discussions would be hijacked by those blinded by single obsessions and penchants for abuse and red herrings (BD, I don't include you – you often make valiant attempts to engage with the topic. You have an idée fixe, but you also have manners). But they're not here, for which I give thanks, so I am.

Father Dave, this feminist agnostic superannuated hippie mum thinks you're a gem. Being a good pacifist, bookish, left-ish stereotype, I was horrified by the thought of my son (brought up in an effectively all-female household with his mother, his grandmother, and a very effeminate male), playing violent games – and got something of a nasty shock to discover refusing to buy war toys meant he'd make guns out of Lego. Not as big a shock as I got when he decided to take up (cue aghast drum roll) ice hockey.

Well, I couldn't have been more wrong. After a game in which he got to hit someone (or two, or three), who was willing to be hit, expecting to be hit, padded up to be hit, he was a different kid. He was so much calmer. He could concentrate in school, at least until Thursday afternoon, by which time he was thinking about the next game. The coach instilled a good deal of discipline, and an understanding, both of actions having consequences when you hurt someone, and of playing fair (out of self-interest as much as much as principle, but how different is this from the Golden Rule?). He's a much more balanced kid as the result of something I was ideologically opposed to, and I think it's probably been the making of him. I now believe it's important to allow outlets for maleness and male drives. My strong suspicion is much like yours – boys are gentler and more self-controlled if they have an outlet for the stone-age hunter in the space-age society. Are donations to you tax-deductible? Sorry to ask, but being broke, I need to make my charity relatively inexpensive.
Posted by anomie, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:11:40 PM
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SCOUT / PEDANT.... ERRATA

My comment:

<<I'd like to think that in our efforts to defend ourselves, we limit what we do to 'reasonable restraint' rather than vindictive revenge
as per Scouts post.>>

This was 'intended' to mean that Scout was advocating 'reasonable restraint' and NOT vindictive revenge.. looking at it and thanx to feedback from Pedant...it seemed to suggest the opposite. Sorry about that team.

Anomie,
are you trying to make me CRY ? :) it almost worked... nice words... appreciated, your sons experience.. "exactly" :)

Scout and all females.....

I think I have it figured out now. I was sharing with a long term gym buddy, a professional and very fit lady, about 'self defence' with this thread in mind. I asked "What would you 'do' if a man swung a big right hand at your face in an attempt to disable you" ?

To my shock, she said "probably freeze".... We talked more, and without ANY coaching from me, she volunteered that 'aggression and kicking butt is very much not a 'female' thing.

After I picked myself up off the floor.. from the shock of such honesty, I thought more about this and here is my 'Hypothesis'.

In any population of females, there will be 'some' at one end of the spectrum who have more testosterone than the rest. These ones, are those who claim 'We don't need men to protect us' etc...But the majority, will have an even balance of the hormones, and some at the other end, will be particularly feminine.

Vice Versa with Males. At one end, less testosterone, and they will be the passive types possibly more in touch with their feminine side (no offense to anyone).

But on the whole, I think its statistically sound that:

-most males are the more aggressive and protective 'by nature'
-most females are less aggressive and have less motivation to 'attack' to defend themselves.

Some females responses on their reaction to a man 'swinging' at them.

Security Guard "Kick him in the nuts"
Checkout chick "Hit him back"
Video Ezy consultant "don't know"
Gym friend "freeze"
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 16 November 2005 7:18:55 PM
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Laurie fyi - Australian Bureau of Statistics annual report on divorce reveals that for divorces in 2004, 41% were instigated by the woman, 31% by the man and 28% jointly.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/divorce-the-way-of-the-future/2005/11/15/1132016796638.html

It seems that, at least in 2004, 10% more women than men instigated divorce proceedings. Whether 31% men vs 41% women is a great deal or even proves anything at all will no doubt be interpreted from personal perspective ;-) and of course the person that instigates divorce proceedings in court may not be the person perceived to have "left"/"deserted" the family as such.

BOAZ_David thanks for the clarification regarding vindictive revenge. In regard to your hypotheses while I agree that people can be placed on a "scale" of aggressiveness and passivity, I also say that it depends on the circumstances. If someone (male or female) swung a big right hand at my face to disable me, I'd duck and run away, except if I was boxing in which case I'd block their right and follow up with a nice right left combination myself (or attempt to anyway!). Also in your example you AGAIN use a male as an aggressor to a female. I say that sometimes males are aggressive to males, sometimes males are aggressive to females, sometimes females are aggressive to males and sometimes females are aggressive to females. Again, even if only subconsciously, you're tyring to take the aggressor role and make it men-only.

Scout I don't think BOAZ_David is ignorant and on an open forum BOAZ_David is entitled to his views and I like to read them (even if I disagree). However BOAZ_David certainly has displayed prejudices especially towards you and towards women. For example when he posted earlier, "I'm looking around for our buddy 'Scout' to leap out and put a post in huge caps about us being Neanderthal or Barbaric :) .... I think we should declare this thread 'MEN ONLY' :)". Bit of a logical fallacy there - he says he's looking for you, but then he wants to exclude you.

And yes, Father Dave, how can we donate to your program?
Posted by Pedant, Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:17:15 AM
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Hi guys :-)

I thought it wouldn't hurt to chip in with some final thoughts and comments.

Pedant, I like your style :-)

Anomie, I'm greatly encouraged to see that you've 'seen the light' (for want of a better phrase) and appreciate your desire to give support.

As we're both broke, probaby we're best off just praying for eachother, but if you ever want to buy me a drink, you can do so at http://www.fightshop.biz/bmad

BD, I was sympathetic to your original idea of the men-only thread, as it reflected a recognition of the fact that men and women do tend to feel very differently about fighting. This is not the place for such exclusiveness of course, but I do think it's high time that men got together and discussed what it means to be men in this day and age. The girls have been way ahead of us in this department.

Personally I think maleness comes down to three 'loves' at a genetic level: we love women, working and fighting.

Now, I know that not all men love to fight. OK, not all men love women either, but in terms of a broad genetic archetype, I personally think that this pretty well sums it up.
Posted by Father Dave, Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:41:06 AM
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