Father Dave, congratulations on the great work you are doing with the boys. I'm really impressed with your words: "The only constructive alternative is for us to reharness themos and channel it creatively ... recognise it, affirm it, and then learn to bring it under control so that it can be put to good use". You obviously are really able to help young men and are a great male role model.

Boxing isn't 'Neanderthal' or 'barbaric' it's fun and great for the health. And one of the important things fighting training teaches is to avoid conflict in the first place. Seeing women achieve in boxing is great too. I don't approve of men beating up their wives and I don't approve of women beating up their husbands. But this has nothing to do with being trained as a boxer, it is to do with the person themselves doing something which is wrong.

I'm surprised however by your assertion that men were made to fight physically is part of the fabric of the Bible and I see that BOAZ_David was so busy rating men ;-) that he didn't consider it either. What about King David who was not allowed to build a temple to God because he had fought too many wars? What about Jesus, who is not recorded as going around fighting people? In fact He told His disciples off for fighting. Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the Temple but I can't recall any other physical violence (although could be wrong). I'm interested to hear your response.

Maximus, a little pedantic I know, but how is a men's boxing match 'one boy/man against himself' surely it is one boy/man against another boy/man? It's only possible in a figurative sense (or by 'shadow boxing') to be 'one boy/man against himself'.

Mal I love your 'thermos' misspelling I had this funny picture in my head of boys going around carrying coffee flasks and it made me smile....

Laurie (<=INEB female)
I suggest the 'high horse' is under you.

I maintain men are protectors of women in the natural world. The police general protectors in society, still, if a woman walks down some dark street and there is a mugger lurking- I'm afraid you might be in for a reality check if he decides to mug you.

Much as the thought might be distasteful to the 'independant feminist' in you, it might just be helpful if one of us here, who have benefited from the 'macho/barbaric/egotripping/Neanderthal art of 'pugalism' is not too far away then the guy mercilessly whacks you with a solid punch to your face. (while you fumble for your mace can)

In fact.. lets just say, our experience in this field of sporting endeavor might just tip the scales and enable us to save your life !

You can deny this till the cows come home and moo their way out into the paddock next morning, and it will still be true.

HAMLET
I partly agree with what you said. Teamwork is also important for young males in sport. We need both. Footy is nothing less than a social substitute for the 'warriors on the warpath' against the next village, and fortunately, we don't kill anyone and take their wife and children in the process.

But Boxing does not need to be a 'harm' sport, head gear, and sparring gloves (bigger/softer) reduce the risk. You score points on the number of blows landed. Yes it is possible to knock your opponent out, but it takes quite a thump.

INEB.. my "Lion" was a bully. I was so lonely and isolated and friendless in grade 5, I used to sit in the fork of a tree most recesses, finally tried to join Kick2Kick, and this moron tried to push me around, he ran past shoving me, I flipped his back foot :) naughty me.. ce-rash... down he went.. and came back to 'hurt' me, Jab jab... game over.. me instantly from zero to hero. It does make a difference to get that 'Lion'... by ourselves.

Laurie,
“remember when talking about family breakdown that men leave their families as often as women do”

Could you please reference the studies that show this. I have searched quite extensively, but I have not found any studies to date that show this, and I believe that what you have said is just another feminist myth.

Father Dave,
You may find interesting the recent article “The Metaphysics of Masculinity” by Paul C. Robbins at http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2005/robbins110805.htm

Actually, despite my personal view that boxing is probably the ugliest of the martial arts, I recognise that Father Dave is actually doing something useful, rather than (for example) blathering on about Muslim bogeymen - as others of his religious persuasion are wont to do in these forums.

I was perhaps a little concerned by Dave's perception that men either beat their women or get walked over by them, but overall I thought his clearly good works outweighed any jollies I might get personally by having a go at him.

Good onya Dave - I wish there were more men around like you. Keep up the good work. You set a great example for other nominally Christian correspondents to these forums, who seem to prefer rabble rousing to following in the footsteps of their Lord.

For the record, I have training in Judo, Karate (and Tai Chi). I encouraged my adult daughter and teenage son to take up Ju-Jitsu, which they did enthusiastically (my daughter is now a lawyer).

There is nothing incompatible with manliness and feminism - which is where I think Father Dave is exceptionally wise in his ideas about how the essence of manliness is the harnessing of 'themos'. Indeed, IMHO it is in the way we exercise our masculine propensities that defines the men we are.

BD, re headgear and gloves.

I used to play American Football, yes, all that protective gear, thermo plastic shoulderpads and a helmet much stronger than anything you would wear on a motorcycle. Guess what? All that 'protective' gear was mainly there to enable a player to hit harder, without hurting himself, it had nothing to do with protecting the other player.

Boxing gloves are intended not to protect the fighter who is being hit, they are there to protect the hands of the person doing the hitting, to enable them to hit harder. Old time bare knuckle bouts were brutal, with cut hands and faces, and broken bones in the hands and face, however there was less brain damage, and fewer deaths.

The modern boxing glove and helmet are cosmetic, when the head is hit the brain squishes around in the cranial cavity like a blob of jelly inside a shaken jar no matter how much padding is on the outside of the skull. That is what is intended, it is that damage that causes 'knockouts' and the daze resulting from a boxing match.

You may like to look at:

http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/38/1/78

A total of 659 deaths from boxing between 1918 and 1997 have been recorded, with an average of nine a year. (snip)

CASE REPORT
An 18 year old man suffered multiple blows to the head during an amateur boxing match, and became progressively lethargic and finally comatose. He was transferred to the trauma centre after 25–40 minutes. He was haemodynamically stable, with a Glasgow coma scale of 7 and pupils that were bilaterally reactive. He arrived in the computed tomography department 25 minutes after his admission. The scans of his head showed a small left subdural haematoma, hemispheric oedema with midline shift to the right, and subarachnoid haemorrhage (snip). etc:

Being beaten to death in a boxing ring is not particularly 'masculine'.

You'll have to forgive me for barging back in again, but after the last post about deaths in boxing, I feel I need to say something.

I hate the fact that people get injured and die in boxing, but I think the dangers are regularly exaggerated.

The overall figures are notoriously difficult to pin down, but it's generally thought to be 500 deaths in 150 years of boxing. That's sounds like a lot, but I'm told that it's far less than in yachting, let alone the rugby codes.

I have on my desk a 21-page report by Dr Ed Eridelander, outlining why he supports amateur boxing, and a 14-page analysis of the famous 'Velazquez Collection' - generally thought to be the most complete collection of data on boxing injuries and fatalities. This analysis concludes that while professional boxers stand a greater risk of injury or death through their profession, they are at much lower risk than industrial workers or farm laborers!

I don't want to deny the risks inherent in the sport, but keep in mind that the fight game works best with high-risk kids, and when anybody says to me 'you might be taking three or four years off the end of this young man's life by teaching him boxing' I always say, 'well, even if that were true, I don't mind taking three or four years of the end if I can add thirty or forty to the front'.