"Women who died from illegal abortions *knew* the risks and took them."

What a great reason to make them legal! Checkout the worldwide
figures of deaths and hospitalisations from botched abortions.
They are huge. Lots of suffering for no good reason.

"Nathanson hadn't been mentioned *once* in this thread until *I* mentioned him."

Do you really think that this is the first debate about abortion
that people like Col, Celivia or myself have had? Think again.
Even the Jehovas Witnesses role out his name, when they come
to the door. Yawn.

"Tell me if its a chicken or an egg."
"I eat both chickens *and* eggs."

Ok, so refuse to answer my question, as you know it would prove
my point. Fair enough.

One of my daughters was close to death from an abortion but that hardly would convince me to support abortions. Nor would I support prohibition of pregnancies because so many women, regardless of how good medical facilities provided may be, die in child-birth. In my view, it is stupid at the very least to argue that because women are dying from illegal abortions then we should decriminalise abortion. Well, people are dying from breaking and entry when trying to rob people, so are we supposed to legislate that no one is allowed to lock up their residences and businesses as to make it less life threatening for criminals to enter and rob us?
The mere fact that the courts entertain litigation if a woman can be inseminated with the sperm of her dead husband/boyfriend that had been stored itself may underline that even “sperm” has a certain status and can attract estate rights, etc.
Once “sperm” is stored and not ordinary disposed off, then it attracts a certain legal status even before it is actually used to fertilise an egg! To tell a woman who desire to be inseminated with the “sperm” of her late husband has no meaning would not particularly be accepted by her.
While I have stated that in certain circumstances, such as in rape cases there might be medical justification to provide for an abortion there is a twist to this all also. As one of my adult daughter know too well, she was the product of a rape, where her father was raped by her mother and this resulted in a pregnancy. Now, those bleeding hearths about women rights to an abortion might just have to consider the right of a man who was raped and it resulted in an unwanted pregnancy! If a woman has purportedly the right to terminated an unwanted pregnancy then why should a man not have the right to demand a woman to have an abortion of an unwanted pregnancy?
I just hold that other then in extreme medical emergencies abortions should not be allowed for.

It might not be something many are aware of but there are women who do rape men. Just that most men having been raped do not talk about it.
It may seem strange that a woman would rape a man but it is no difference then a man raping a woman.

Also, there are women who having had sexual intercourse then afterwards retrieve the condom and impregnate themselves with the sperm retrieved from the condom. Now again, those bleeding hearts going on about women’s rights might just have to consider the right of men in those circumstances where they never had any intention to conceive a child!

There is also a lot of talk going on about women who were raped and might resent a child that could be born because of it, and so would be better of to have an abortion. Well, rather then resent the child, when she was one year old I commenced to care for her and never had any resentment against her. After all, she too was a victim and not the cause. And, now that she is an adult I am glad that I took the sensible solution to accept her as being my child regardless of the circumstances that led to her creation.

There are a lot of silly people who think they know it all to justify abortions, rather then to consider that many who have been raped have nevertheless a great bond with the child resulting from a rape! Hence, abortion should be in extreme circumstances on medical advise and not otherwise.

Gerrit, I assume that you have the consent of your daughter(s) and wife to repeatedly reveal very personal and private details about themselves on a public forum. If not, you should be ashamed of yourself for breaching their right to confidentiality.

In any case, you can't have it both ways. You want men to be given the right to demand that a woman has an abortion when he believes that he is the victim in an unplanned pregnancy, but if a woman is raped, then this isn't a good enough reason for you for her to seek a termination. You really don't have a very high opinion of women in general do you?

Yes, Crumpethead, Gerrit (who uses his real identity to post) has been revealing more and more information about his family. He also has outed himself as a misogynist by the way he talks about women.

After 59 pages, the anti-choice brigade still hasn’t come up with reasonable arguments to support their opinion. The arguments have been highly emotive and irrational.
The recent, logical posts by Yabby and Col have only caused them to come up with even more ridiculous and desperate arguments.

The state is not entitled to interfere with YOUR reproductive rights, Gerrit and Shocka, why should the state be entitled to interfere with the reproductive rights of women?
The rights of pregnant women must always take precedence over the foetus and over anyone else’s so-called morals or views.
It’s a personal choice and will remain a personal choice no matter how many irrational and emotive arguments the anti-choicers come up with.

Gerrit, nothing would justify forcing a woman to give birth or to have an abortion against her will.

A (what must be a very physically weak) raped man should be free from financial obligations of child support.
The rapist could have her baby in jail as far as I’m concerned; I have no sympathy for rapists, female or male.
But to force women to have abortions against their will is as barbaric as forcing women to give birth against their will.

I still don’t know what punishments Gerrit and Shocka have in mind for the woman who had an illegal abortion.
No matter what you say- if abortion remains a criminal act, and all criminal acts should result in some kind of punishment, then what punishment should there be or is in place already for a woman who had an illegal abortion because she couldn’t get approval for a legal abortion?

I don’t know this.
Is there some kind of punishment now for this criminal act or not?
I am not talking about punishing the one who performed the abortion but about the woman who had the illegal abortion.

QUOTE
Yes, Crumpethead, Gerrit (who uses his real identity to post) has been revealing more and more information about his family.
END QUOTE
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I AM NOT A COWARD TO HIDE BEHIND SOME SCREEN NAME AND (REGRETFULLY) DO NOT HAVE TO FABRICATE A RAPE INCIDENT.
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I did was not married to the woman (I was at the time still lawfully married to my then wife) and never intended to have a sexual-relationship with this woman and it had nothing to do with being very physically weak! I do not think it is appropriate to set out in details the gory incident in this forum.
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As for my daughter, she knows the truth and understands that regardless what caused her pregnancy she is equal to my other children and always has been. As a matter of fact some of the other children held I favoured her more then them.
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I pointed out that men also can be raped as some contributors in their post argued that a woman should not be forced to have a baby if she was raped. My response was if it was on medical grounds - in extreme circumstances – deemed justified I can accept then that abortion is to be allowed.
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I do not at all pursue that a man (raped or not) can pursue that a woman can have an abortion. I merely sought to point out that all this talk about how it affects a woman and a disregard to the affect upon a man showed a considerable deficiency in arguments.
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In principle I oppose any abortion, albeit – again- in special medical justified circumstances can accept a woman to have an abortion.
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As such, I am not some joining on the band wagon of anti-abortionist or pro-life but merely apply the doctrine that those who argue about pro-abortion about a woman’s right ignore that a pregnancy takes two people, not just one and both must be considered having equal rights. Hence either you accept that both partners to a pregnancy can demand an abortion or neither can!