Shockadelic" It cannot be proven that anybody has any rights whatsoever. Society *creates* and destroys "rights""

If you rely on that case, I would contest your right to interfer in the private decisions of strangers is a "right" which has or should be destroyed, before the right of those strangers to determine their own pregnancy options.


"Great, but all we hear from most "pro-choice family planners" is "Abortion, abortion, abortion"..

I demand you justify that claim.

I believe it to be a bit of prolife hyperbole, with no foundation based on any fact.

I note your "prohibition in Australia" failed miserably to identify any national ban on alcohol, merely the establishment of parochial bans in places like Ascot Vale, Mildura and the odd aboriginal settlement and no coast-to-coast prohibition, as implemented in
USA.

Similar "half-hearted" results were deployed in Canada.

Your references proves my point, "Alcohol has never been "illegal" in Australia or Canada.", In the absolute or complete sense as it was made "illegal" in USA under prohibition.


"Your whole argument rests on the inability of the unborn to feel pain or be a conscious person!"


Not at all.

My argument rests firmly on the right of the pregnant woman to decide on how her body will be used.

The rights, feelings or consciousness of any embryo are irrelevant to the decision. In the context of the dual-occupancy of the woman's body, the embryo has no rights and has an existence which is not absolutely subordinate to the will and wishes of the woman.


"Did you even read my list of various philosophical perspectives.'

Repeating the philosophical perspectives of others means you can read, it does not mean you can develop the original thoughts which are the real evidence of "thinking outside the box".


"Hitler had the support of the *majority* of Germans. And like you, he believed in executing the undesirable."

I make no Judgement to the "desirability" or otherwise of an embryo.

Unlike you and Hitler, I seek to leave the choice to abort or not solely in the ahnds of the pregnant individual.

"So its a good invention! It helps keep crazy primates like you out of Govt."
Yabby, democracy is government by the people (That's me!).

I can join a party, vote, and nominate myself.
Didn't you get the memo?

"Democracy is not about tyranny of the majority. Secular Govt, where religion is no more then a lifestyle choice, helps preserve those rights."

Parliamentary majority is required to pass laws.
See memo.

Democracy and secularism aren't synonyms!
You're confusing different concepts.

The Nazis were *secular*.
Were they democratic?
Did they preserve human rights?

Secularism isn't universal.

Mount Athos, an state of Greece, is ruled by Orthodox Christian monks.

The Koran *is* the constitution of Saudi Arabia.

Heard of the Vatican state?

Israel was created as a Jewish homeland. "Jewish" is a religious definition.

Mexico's "separation of church and state" ironically resulted in the state owning all churches.
Step inside a Mexican church and you're on state property!

Tibet was ruled by the Dalai Lama, leader of Tibetan Buddhism.
I bet you *love* the Dalai Lama!
Free Tibet! Let the Lama rule!

"Most Germans didn't have the foggiest."
http://www.amazon.com/Backing-Hitler-Consent-Coercion-Germany/dp/0192802917

Col Rouge: ""All we hear is "Abortion, abortion, abortion".."
I demand you justify that claim."

Sterilisation is expensive, abortion isn't.

Yet there's a National Network of Abortion Funds.
"If you need help paying for an abortion, click here."
http://www.nnaf.org/

A "National Network of Sterilization Funds"?
Nope.

No *national* ban on alcohol?
You never said "absolute or complete".

Australia and Canada are *federations*, most laws (say, abortion) are state, some local.

"Your whole argument..."
"My argument..."

Col thinks the word "you" only refers to himself, personal, singular.
Go back to primary school.

"You" can be plural, or refer to an *unspecified* person or people *in general*.
("If you get pregnant...")

"Repeating the philosophical perspectives of others".
I interpreted and applied.
That isn't mere repetition.

"I make no judgement to the "desirability" of an embryo."

She alone determines what's undesirable?
Gay gene, dwarfism, blindness?

She has the "right" to determine the desirability of gays, dwarfs or the blind?

Now who's being Hitler!?

"Yabby, democracy is government by the people (That's me!)."

Well thats the point. In general, how ever irrational
some extremists like yourself might be, there is a high
likelyhood that a well informed majority will behave in
a reasonably rational way. That keeps out the fruitcakes,
of if they do sneak in, they can soon be kicked out.

"I can join a party, vote, and nominate myself."

You can do all that, doesent mean anyone, or certainly not
a majority, will vote for you.

"Parliamentary majority is required to pass laws."

It certainly does, and if they are bad laws, it will come
back to haunt them. Australians insist on their rights,
as they should.

"Democracy and secularism aren't synonyms!"

Secular Govt is the only form of Govt which is tolerant
enough of various religions and lifestyles. We have freedom of religion,
but also demand freedom from religion. Religion should be
a lifestyle choice, no more.

"The Nazis were *secular*."

Hitler was a Catholic.

"Were they democratic?
Did they preserve human rights?"

Nope they wern't democratic or preserve human rights.
Thats why their system of Govt was not suitable, as
we know.

"Secularism isn't universal."

Nope, but we are pushing hard that it will be.
I am intolerant of the intolerant.

Shockadelic” She has the "right" to determine the desirability of gays, dwarfs or the blind?

Now who's being Hitler!?”

She has the right to determine how her body will be used.

You have no right to determine that choice for her.

I suggest you “Get over it”.

This is not all about you.

If you want to carry an embryo which is dwarf, gay blind, deaf and dumb to term and bring it into the world, that is your choice.

I will never stand in your way.

I will defend your right to make that choice.

Just as I will defend the sovereign right of others to make a different choice.

As for Hitler,

the similarities between you and Hitler are patently obvious,

Hitler demanded he had the right to make all the choices for everyone else and you seem to believe you are entitled to do the same.

YOU ARE WRONG !

If your debating prowess is any indicator, I doubt you can competently conduct your own affairs and make your own choices or possibly tie your shoe laces. You are certainly not competent to make choices for strangers you have never met or know the circumstances of and who owe you nothing.

Individuals can do whatever they like with their own body.
The problem here is there's *two* bodies, one inside the other.

Twist language as you like, rejecting the words "body" or "person", but they're *human lifeforms*.

"Clumps of cells"?
So are you, just lots more of them.

"Hitler was Catholic."

His *government* was secular, claiming the "right" to exterminate the gay, the dwarfed and the blind.

Aborting for *no other reason* than some perceived flaw, is eugenics, not "personal liberty".

I want gay, dwarfed, blind and at least some theocratic people in the world, if only to remind you "thought police" that "universal principles" don't always apply.

"Their system of Govt was not suitable".
But very popular, which is all I said.
It was only brought down by *outsiders*.

"We are pushing hard that it (secularism) will be (universal)."

Why are you "pushing hard" for anything.
Can't people could make their own decisions?
Like democratically choosing a non-secular government?

"I am intolerant of the intolerant."

So you're intolerant of yourself?
I guess that just about sums up your ability to make sense, Yabby.

"The nonsense of Yabby was irrepressible"!

Col Rouge: "I suggest you "Get over it". This is not all about you."

Ditto, Mister Y. Chromosome.

However, you're forgetting three very important things:

1. Nobody lives in complete isolation or freedom.
The actions of every person effect me.
We aren't autonomous, we live together in a *society*.

2. I can *comment* on anything.
Isn't "free speech" part of the personal liberty principle?.

3. I pay taxes.
I have the right as a taxpayer to oppose any form of public spending I disagree with.

"The similarities between you and Hitler are patently obvious."

Yes, Hitler demanded the right of gays, dwarfs and the blind to exist, never terminated anyone's life because of their perceived flaws or *inconvenience*, and demanded that taxpayers have the right to determine how their taxes are spent.

The similarities are *uncanny*!

"Irrational extremists".
"Fruitcakes".
"I doubt you can tie your shoe laces".

Guys, there's too much fibre in your diet.
See your doctor if pain persists.

"Twist language as you like, rejecting the words "body" or "person", but they're *human lifeforms*.

Umm Shocka, so are those little sperms that you flush down the
toilet. So what?

"Hitler was Catholic."
His *government* was secular, claiming the "right" to exterminate the gay, the dwarfed and the blind."

Shocka, the various popes were Catholic. That did not stop them
having people like me burnt at the stake, for expressing our
views. A Catholic ran the nazi empire too.

"But very popular, which is all I said.
It was only brought down by *outsiders*."

It was popular for a start. But because of the lack of separation
of the powers, people had little choice but to later simply do as
they were told. Thats why things like rights, separation of
the powers etc, are such important parts of democracies, not just
tyranny of the majority as the standard model.

"Why are you "pushing hard" for anything.
Can't people could make their own decisions?"

Well thats what we are pushing for, people like you want
to stop them from doing exactly that.

"Like democratically choosing a non-secular government?"

You mean tyranny by religious marjority? Why should that
be acceptable to the non religious?

"So you're intolerant of yourself"

Nope, I am intolerant of people like you, with an agenda,
who want to deny other people their rights.