Yabby: "Give a good reason why you flush human
sperms and ova down the toilet without a second thought".
Good reason: Sperm and ova alone are your own body, merged together they're a *new* body.

Col Rouge: "I suggest they work in a cardiac ward or cancer centre".
Nurses don't necessarily specialise.
Specialists in obstetrics studied to maintain the *health* of both mother and child.

"The trashy argument "And the guy who rapes, robs and kills my neighbour""
Was addressing your "no material effect on me" argument.
Murder and rape are illegal because they're immoral, not because they materially effect every single person, including myself.

"So, I am corrupt and demented, well my posts are based on reason and logic."
I doubt that.
You, Yabby and others really overestimate the importance of reason anyway.
We have a *right brain* too you know!
Only using your left brain makes you the "intellectually challenged" one.

"Anyone who feels the need to use a logon like "Shockadelic" must be dealing with some fairly serious personality disorders."
Ouch!
Or is a much more interesting person than you.
Attacking my logon, not my argument. Pathetic!

CJ Morgan: "Shocka hates refugees, loves foetuses."
Most immigrants are *not* refugees; don't use the words interchangeably.
And I only "hate" immigration (process), not immigrants (people).
There's a difference.

Celivia: "If you think that shooting a person is the same thing as abortion".
Little Miss-Interpret strikes again.
Remember "method and intention"?
Self-defence, accidental shooting and murder may all produce the same *result*, but the "intention" alters the morality.

So too, the difference between spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), therapeutic abortion (maternal life at risk) and elective abortion (going to Tahiti next month and don't want baby bump in holiday snaps).
Same result: Dead foetus.
Different morality.

Don Aitkin: "My position is not about debating but a firm principle."
And you arrived at your principle without debate?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:AbortionLawsAustraliaMap.png

We've got the laws most Australians accept, allowing abortion only under limited circumstances: rape, risk to maternal health, or fetal defects.
Only feminists (and that includes men, Yabby, Col and Don) want abortion "on demand".

"Sperm and ova alone are your own body, merged together they're a *new* body."

They are not my own body, they are individual beings. They might
share dna, but so do identical twins. So in that case do you feel
free to dong one twin on the head?

BTW a zygote is not a body, its a cell.

"You, Yabby and others really overestimate the importance of reason anyway.
We have a *right brain* too you know!"

Shocka, our whole society, laws, morals etc, are based on reason!

Go to court and tell the judge that you know who did it. Your
right brain heard voices telling you it was fairies. See how
seriously he takes you :) You are free to fly on the clouds
without reason, leave the rest of us out of your little trip lol.

BTW, abortion is legal in West Australia, time you update
your knowledge. Are you sure that you aren't one of those
people who posts on Wikipedia, then tries to use what you posted
as a reference? Doesent mean its true lol.

Look at the map's legend: the colour for Western Australia means "Legal for rape, maternal life, health, mental health, socioeconomic factors, and/or fetal defects".

This isn't "on demand", which only exists in the ACT.
(Cross-promotional opportunity: free porn DVD with every abortion!).

"They (Sperm and ova) are not my own body, they are individual beings."

Unfertilised ova and old spermatozoa are expelled from the body *naturally*, through nocturnal emissions or periods.
Induced abortion is *not* a natural expulsion of cells.
(Miscarriage is natural, so it's *amoral*).

A spermatozoon may look like a tadpole, but that doesn't make it an "individual being".

They're just *free* cells floating in fluid, just like your blood cells.

The fact they're "free" (not attached) doesn't make them "individual beings", or you'd have to conclude your *blood cells* were individual beings!

If spermatozoa and ova are individual beings, are you campaigning against donating sperm or ova?
What right do you have to forcefully remove them from "your body"?

Define where "individual being" ends.
It certainly ends at "different DNA", that's for sure!

"Zygote is not a body, its a cell."
And from this cell with its own unique DNA will come two, and from two will come four, etc.
Eventually forming all the cells of a human body.

A "body" doesn't just exist once it's *fully formed*.
Otherwise children could not be said to have bodies!

Your "body" isn't a finite thing anyway, it's constantly changing millions of cells every day.
And that process begins with the very *first* cell (Mr or Ms Zygote) and doesn't stop until you die.

"Our whole society" is "based on reason"?
Well somebody forgot to tell the artists!

Are you campaigning for the abolition of music?
It's not rational! Destroy all music now!

"Your right brain heard voices telling you it was fairies."

You automatically equate "right brain" (perfectly natural and normal) with *insanity*, which is often a brain *malfunction*.
Anyway, somebody legally "incompetent" or "unfit to plead" can't be prosecuted.
And you call me ignorant!

"This isn't "on demand", which only exists in the ACT."

In reality its certainly on demand, in the first trimester.
With all the religious lobbies squacking loudly, perhaps
the wording was changed a little, to placate them. That
does not change the reality. Something like 90%
of the public supported the changes.

"Induced abortion is *not* a natural expulsion of cells.
(Miscarriage is natural, so it's *amoral*)."

Lots of things are not natural, that does not make them
immoral. What is immoral is simply your opinion, no more.
So "natural" is a none issue here.

"A spermatozoon may look like a tadpole, but that doesn't make it an "individual being"."

Of course its an individual being. It can move around.
Its a unicellur being. Check the definition of a being.

"Define where "individual being" ends.
It certainly ends at "different DNA", that's for sure!"

Lots of individual beings have the same or different dna.
Big deal. So what?

"Eventually forming all the cells of a human body."

Exactly, eventually. A zygote is a potential body,
just like an acorn is not an oak tree, but a potential
oak tree. Big Difference!

"Well somebody forgot to tell the artists!"

We tolerate all sorts of artistic expression.
When it comes to the law, forcing others how
to live etc, reason dominates! Fruitcakes
are not accepted in the courts!

"Are you campaigning for the abolition of music?"

No I'm campaigining that people have rights and women
should have the right to raise children when they are
loved and wanted, not forced on them by fruitcakes.
With around 400 chances, best to pick the most suitable
time etc.

Shocka, both left and right brain hemispheres are important in our lives but they each have their place in different situations.
I admire right-hemisphere dominated people for their creativity, sensitivity, artistic skills etc as much as I admire left-hemisphere dominated people for being good analysers, dealing with facts, their logic, reasoning etc.
Most people do use both hemispheres.

In courts however, we need people who have learnt to use or naturally possess the ability to deal with facts, think fast, use reasoning and logic because these aspects of the brain are needed to be as objective as possible.

Pregnant women, I am positive, use both hemispheres to make a decision about their own future regarding their pregnancy.
They will use their left hemisphere to gather the info they need, to look at the facts, finances, use reason and anticipation to make their decision etc. They will also naturally use their right hemisphere to sort out their feelings, use their intuition etc.
By using both hemispheres she will be able to decide what decision to make in her own unique situation.

While the woman has two hemispheres of her brain to consult as well as the brains of other people if she needs more help, the embryo/foetus has no developed human brain and the consciousness of something like a vegetable

No matter what you say or what kind of desperate philosophies you (or any other anti-abortionists) come up with, the ultimate decision remains with the woman; it’s her body, her life, her future. To deny a woman the right to make decisions over her own life is oppressive and dictatorial.

Gerrit,
“I accept however that even with single mothers the child is born into a natural family as it was created by a man and a woman, despite that the parents may have split.”
Gerrit, I also think it’s nice for kids to be part of a 2 parent family, but many children have been created as a result of a one-night stand and have never been part of a family and never even met the father.

The further down that rabbit hole you go, Yabby, the more ridiculous you get.

Your own words:
"Ignore nature at your peril."
"You need to go right back to observing nature. We are natural beings after all."
"Self interest is a normal, natural instinct."
"Neuroscience, biology, subjects based on evidence".
"Morality is actually grounded in biology."
"Lots of things are not natural, that does not make them immoral. So "natural" is a none issue here."

Hang on, Yabby. Could you repeat that last one?

"Natural is a none issue here".

Before what's natural was the basis for everything, including morality and our very mind.
Now, what's natural is *irrelevant*!

It would be so much easier for people to agree with you Yabby, if you first agreed with yourself.