Shocka “Individuals can do whatever they like with their own body.
The problem here is there's *two* bodies, one inside the other.”

A woman, who is the “principle and permanent occupant” of said body and an embryo who could be said to be transient or “just passing through”.

I give “priority of residence and choice to co-habit” to the permanent occupant over ay rights claimable by the transient.

“Hitler” – determined that any Aryan woman who sought an abortion would suffer penalty of death following changes to the German legal codes enacted in July 1942.

“Yabby, democracy is government by the people (That's me!).”

And equally, it is Yabby and I but we understand, it is not just about “me”.

“I want gay, dwarfed, blind and at least some theocratic people in the world, if only to remind you "thought police" that "universal principles" don't always apply.”

I don’t care what proportion of gay dwarfed blind or disabled people come into the world. I would prefer they were all born whole and free of defect but I cannot control such things.

“1. Nobody lives in complete isolation or freedom.
. . . we live together in a *society*.”

Margaret Thatcher rightly said

“There is no such thing as Society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.”

Those men and women have sovereign right to make decisions concerning their body equal to yours. They have no right to impose their will on you and you have no right to impose your will on them.

“2. …
"free speech" part of the personal liberty principle?.”

I defend your right to express it and I have the same right to express my view.

The difference is I acknowledge the rights of others to make decisions which I might not make, because I respect their right of choice in protecting my own rights.

“3. I pay taxes.
I have the right as a taxpayer to oppose any form of public spending I disagree with.”

Actually, You don’t

Yabby, I think this thread has run its course.

"The popes were Catholic. That did not stop them
having people like me burnt at the stake, for expressing our
views. A Catholic ran the nazi empire too."

Yabby, what's your point here: Catholics like killing people?
(Yet oddly, opposed to abortion!)

Hitler was Catholic, but Nazi government had the same secular, *coldy scientific* perspective you advocate.

You'd just love be a dictator, burning me at the stake for expressing *my* views.
But you must never say so, portraying your totalitarian wet dreams as "justice", "equality", "rights", "freedom".
Nice pretty words.

"Tyranny by religious majority?"

Why is a religiously informed agenda "tyranny", even when chosen by the majority of Australians (who are majority Christian), but a scientifically informed agenda can never be "tyranny"?

"Tyranny" just seems to be anything you don't agree with.

Democracy isn't secularism or science.

Democratic government is whatever *the people* want it to be.
We can elect a group of circus clowns to run the country if we want.
(Oops, already did that!)

I bet you don't want your taxes spent of the Iraq war, but that moral objection would be okay, because its *yours*.
And you are always right.

Col Rouge: "An embryo could be said to be transient or "just passing through".
I give "priority of residence and choice to co-habit" to the permanent occupant over any rights claimable by the transient."

Hitler liked killing gypsies and hobos too!
You guys would really get along.

"I would prefer they were all born whole and free of defect".
Defective?
Nature produces variants, darling. "Get over it".

Margaret Thatcher?
Quoted by a namby pamby do-gooder?!

If "There is no such thing as Society", why support democracy then?
Why not anarchism?

"I defend your right to express it".
Doesn't sound like it.
I was called a fruitcake extremist who can't tie his shoelaces, just because I disagree with you!

"Actually, You don't" (have the right as a taxpayer to oppose unacceptable public spending).
Please explain?
I can't express opposition to unacceptable public spending?
Since when?

"I think this thread has run its course."
Well then, SHUT UP!!

"Yabby, what's your point here: Catholics like killing people?
(Yet oddly, opposed to abortion!)"

They want more little Catholics remember, not people
who oppose them.

"but Nazi government had the same secular, *coldy scientific* perspective you advocate."

Not at all. They were fanatical madmen, unable to be kicked out
by their people. Absolute power corrupts absolutaly. Thats why
such a focus on the separation of the powers, when it comes
to democracy.

"You'd just love be a dictator, burning me at the stake for expressing *my* views."

Now where did I say that?

"Why is a religiously informed agenda "tyranny","

Religion is based on faith in the supernatural. Our society
is based on reason. If the Taliban say no music, Allah said
so, should that be enforcable in a democracy?

Australia is secular. Around 8% go to church.

"Democratic government is whatever *the people* want it to be."

Within reason. People have rights

Obviously the debate has been 'won' by the people with the best arguments, which is the pro-choice site, which have been arguing that women are in charge of their own body and their own life and perfectly capable to make the decision that is right in their unique situation.

The anti-abortion site's main argument has been that the embryo/foetus is defined as 'human life' and that therefore it is justified to force pregnant women to give birth.

Well, Shocka, let's imagine that abortion is to be illegal and criminalised like you like to see happen because you incline that abortion is equivalent to murder.
Let's go one step further and tell us what kind of punishment you think a woman deserves for having an abortion.
Does she deserve to be treated like a murderer?

What kind of punishment would you see fit for the doctors at an abortion clinic?
Should they be treated and sentenced like a mass murderer?

What about the boyfriend/husband, or all the people who give her support and advice before and after the crime, are they to be treated as her accessories before and after the crime of abortion?

Just curious

Shocka “Hitler liked killing gypsies and hobos too!
You guys would really get along.”

Actually Margaret Thatcher said “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”

One being associated with Hitler falls into that category.

I see you have confirmed, you have no valid debating points to make.

"I would prefer they were all born whole and free of defect".
Defective?
Nature produces variants, darling. "Get over it".

Yes, And I am sure every person born blind would rather they could see, free of a “defective lack of sight”.

As for “nature produces variants” so why can you not accept that one of those “variants” is observed as “women decide on abortion” ?

“Margaret Thatcher?
Quoted by a namby pamby do-gooder?!”

Really? – is that what you think?

You are a long way of the mark but them, your posts have degenerated into the “obsessive hysterical”.

“If "There is no such thing as Society", why support democracy then?”

Obviously the quote was beyond your “defective” reasoning skills and I have insufficient word allowance to explain.

“I was called a fruitcake extremist who can't tie his shoelaces, just because I disagree with you!”

But I did not deny your right to be a fruitcake who is shoe-lace challenged.

No one has the right to qualify how the taxes they pay will be dispensed, if we did I would list a host of pointless socialist interferences in my life which are not worthy of funding.

“Well then, SHUT UP!!”

Oh, should I be hurt? Should I be shocked? Should I complain?

I think not, it is obvious you are desperate and have lost the argument.

Ah Celivia, you ask some tantalizing questions… maybe there is life in this thread still… I do hope Shocka replies, I relish what can be done with the response.

By your argument, a sadistic woman can torture, deform or maim her unborn, whilst it remains within her own body.
Only once it's born, does the child have rights.

She can, by your "logic", stick needles into her belly, painfully piercing the flesh of her foetus.

She can injest substances known to cause birth defects, hoping to produce a hideous monster.

She can, if she found an agreeable surgeon, amputate the arms and legs of her unborn, so it'll be born limbless.

By your own argument, Little Miss Psycho can do all of this and more, because its in her body, and her "rights" prevail at all times.

Refute the above scenario without *contradicting* yourselves!

Celivia: "Let's imagine that abortion is to be illegal and criminalised like you like to see happen".

Let's imagine I said such a thing in the first place.

Look back over my posts.
I haven't *once* suggested banning abortion outright.
Your attacks are based on a *presumption*.

Criticising something, even on moral grounds, doesn't automatically imply supporting criminalisation.

I don't want heroin addiction. So do I want heroin illegal?
I morally oppose certain extreme horror movies. Do I want them legally banned?

Or do I simply want people *properly informed* about all the pros and cons.

I definitely support legality for genuinely *therapeutic* reasons (maternal life at risk).
I definitely don't support whimsical eugenics.

Unless you believe in *mandatory sentencing*, there's little point asking what the punishment would be.

Col Rouge: "Margaret Thatcher said "I always cheer up immensely if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.""

Um, weren't you the ones accusing *me* of being Hitler?
A fruitcake extremist who can't tie his own shoelaces.
I'm with Maggie on that one!

"Pointless socialism" wouldn't be behind state-funded abortion by any chance?

"I have insufficient word allowance to explain".
No go ahead, go can post again.
I really want to hear this one!

Why is democratic goverment embraced by the "society-less" Col Rouge, instead of anarchy?