Shocka, you can run off with all sorts of your own speculations,
but my statement is accurate and remains so.

Most women have around 400 "opportuntities" to have a child.
Which ones of those 400 they decide to turn into actually having
a child, is up to them and should be up to them.

I remind you that having an abortion is about 8 times safer
then actually having a child.

It should not be up to control freaks to run these womens
lives, but up to them to make decisions about their lives.

I am all for sterilisation being freely available to both
men and women who want them

Shockadelic “What is legal or illegal, moral or immoral, can change over time.”

“Alcohol was legal, then illegal, then legal again.”

Alcohol has never been “illegal” in Australia or UK or Canada.

Prior to the early part of the 19 th century, abortion was not illegal.
Subsequent to the 1960-70’s abortion has not been “illegal”, so why leave it as part of the criminal code?

“What's considered moral or immoral can change, so don't think you've won any permanent victories with your abortion laws.”

Ah that sounds like you are accepting defeat, in the face of the overwhelming power or reason.

“What if scientists discovered a way to detect consiousness prior to brain development?”

It would make no difference to a woman’s sovereign right to choose how her body will be deployed.

“What if the lack of childbirth amongst secular, agnostic types leads to a future generation of mostly moralistic religious types.”

What if you were to disappear up your own fundamental orifice?

I have no authority to impose my values on subsequent generations, similarly, nor do you.

The difference between us? –

You are the one who is trying to impose your moral values on others.

I am standing up to allow people to decide for themselves, regardless of what my choice might be if I found myself in their circumstances.

“just love the way you legalistic, rational materialists think.”

Ah the sign of the judgemental mind.

It only functions by labeling all it sees, similar to the “order” which afflict the obsessive compulsives, unable to think outside the tiny box of their own limitations.

Someone for whom the God-given facility to exercise freedom of choice and expression, to make decisions, either right of wrong, is completely wasted.

As for “The choice you make today to abort may actually *prevent* you making a choice to be a mother later.”

ROFLMAO

Oh that’s a classic, it hurts soooooo much, oh the tears of laughter.

A choice to be a “mother” was never mine to make.

Fyi – I am male, although I do have 2 daughters.

My speculation, Yabby?
If she can get pregnant 400 times, then she can get 400 abortions.
Follow your own logic!

"Which ones of those 400 they decide to turn into actually having a child is up to them."

This "sovereign right" is your *belief*.
It cannot be proven that anybody has any rights whatsoever.
Society *creates* and destroys "rights".

"It should not be up to control freaks to run these womens
lives."

This argument could apply to *every* law!
Unless we lived in anarchy, there'll always be laws "deciding" what you can or can't do, "imposed" by "control freaks" in government.

"I am all for sterilisation being freely available".
Great, but all we hear from most "pro-choice family planners" is "Abortion, abortion, abortion".
Where's the lobbying for free sterilisation clinics?

Col Rouge: "Alcohol has never been "illegal" in Australia or Canada."
Really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition_in_Canada

"Subsequent to the 1960-70's abortion has not been illegal".
Check out that map, legal on demand only in ACT.
Legal only within *certain contexts* everywhere else.

"If scientists discovered a way to detect consiousness prior to brain development?
It would make *no difference*."

What?!!
Your whole argument rests on the inability of the unborn to feel pain or be a conscious person!
If they were conscious, they'd have a "sovereign right" over their physical being too.

"I have no authority to impose my values on subsequent generations."
So generous!
Values were, are and will be "imposed" on people, until everybody agrees on everything, which will be *Never*!

"The judgemental mind, unable to think outside the tiny box of their own limitations."

"Hello, Kettle. It's the Pot Calling. You're black! Bye now!"

I can't think outside the box?
Did you even read my list of various philosophical perspectives (most of which challenge *both* sides of the debate!)
Unlike you lot, who think repeating mantras makes them "true".
Monkey Magic!

"Someone for whom the God-given facility to exercise freedom of choice and expression is completely wasted."

So remember kiddies, "freedom of choice and expression" means everybody docilely agrees with pro-choicers.

And don't mention God in front of Yabby!

"If she can get pregnant 400 times, then she can get 400 abortions.
Follow your own logic!"

My logic is clear! My point is that women have 400 opportunities.
Which is correct. That kid could be made, when she chooses, reality
prevails, they could all be cute, but not all can be created and
survive.

In reality, who has had 400 abortions? Or even 100? Or even 50?
So your point is a non issue.

"It cannot be proven that anybody has any rights whatsoever.
Society *creates* and destroys "rights"."

Well thats why we support democracy and why people like Col
and myself argue for peoples rights. You are correct, control
freaks like yourself and Hitler have existed before and
might exist again, unless we humble individuals defend our
rights.

Humble?!
LOL times a million!

"My point is that women have 400 opportunities. Which is correct."

Which means they could get *pregnant* 400 times (not have 400 children!).
And if they don't want kids, they would get these 400 pregnancies *terminated*!

"Well thats why we support democracy"
Democracy is an *invented* idea too.
Primates, remember, are naturally hierarchical, not egalitarian.

And it's "majority rule", *whoever* that majority happens to be: majority Christian, majority agnostic, majority witch-burners, majority bra-burners, majority sceptics, majority Mormons!
This can't produce "imposed values"?

Hitler had the support of the *majority* of Germans.
And like you, he believed in executing the undesirable.

"Which means they could get *pregnant* 400 times (not have 400 children!)."

Which means that they can pick and choose when to have their
children, for they clearly can't have them all. That means more
wanted, loved, children, less suffering.

"Democracy is an *invented* idea too.
Primates, remember, are naturally hierarchical, not egalitarian."

So its a good invention! It helps keep crazy primates like
you out of Govt :)

"And it's "majority rule", *whoever* that majority happens to be:"

Thats why democracy is not about tyranny of the majority, but
people have rights. Secular Govt, where religion is no more
then a lifestyle choice, helps preserve those rights.

"Hitler had the support of the *majority* of Germans."

Sorry but most Germans didn't have the foggiest as to what
Hitler was up to. Have you ever heard of the seperation of
the powers as part of democracy? Probably not.