Col Rouge
About “I do not like to bring this up but rape victims are powerless victims in their circumstance of their situation.”
My-various-previous-postings-made-clear-that-in-principle-I-am-opposed-to-abortions, albeit I can accept that in certain (not all) rape cases it might be medically justified to bring about an abortion!
One would be a loony to demand that, say a 12 year old rape victim should be forced to proceed with a pregnancy if medically this is warned against, however neither should it be held that every so called “rape” victim is a rape victim.
Some years ago there was this Sgt from Lalor-Police who made known that upon investigation about nine of ten alleged-rapes it was concluded that they were not rapes at all but consensus sexual activities. Just that the woman after the encounter, fearing to have possibly risked pregnancy then create this argument as to try to excuse herself with the husband.
When one of my daughters at age 15 was raped and ended up pregnant my concern was her long-term future and over the years this daughter has time and again expressed how lucky she was to have a father who was open minded and didn’t come down on her as a ton of brick, so to say, to push for an abortion.
One of my daughter wrote this which speaks for itself:
QUOTE
Dear Dad,
hey, happy Birthday
Sorry, I didn't call you on the day. But I hope you had a very good day.
Dad you are my angel.
Who looks after me. Your love is with me always, wherever I may be. Your guide and you guard me. Your strength is always there. You're such a special father to me.
who's full of love and care.
I love you.
I really care for you.
I love everything you do.
You are the best, then all the rest.
Lots of love Rebecca.
xxxxxxx ooooooo
END QUOTE
Another daughter wrote in simular manner some years ago!

My daughters accept my position to value the lives of unborn babies and that they are not disposable as some piece of environmental issue.

"Shocka, you put a lot of effort into this post" (I presume you mean the philosophical examples)

Thank you, Celivia, I think that's the first and only compliment I've received from an "opponent" on OLO.
I think I'll frame it. I doubt I'll get another.

Perhaps somebody should print a brochure to give to women considering an abortion, showing *all* the possible religious, political, philosophical and scientific perspectives on the issue.

The *only* viewpoints we ever hear about are the feminist and the Christian.

As I showed, there are *lots* of others.
If succinct, this wouldn't result in a heavy "phone book", but a small booklet.

I don't see how anybody can make an informed decision based on knowledge of only *two* opposing arguments, ignoring all others.

I think you've misunderstood my statements about immigration and Islam.

I said that without immigration, we wouldn't have population growth from extra births, as these babies would just replace people leaving the country. So zero population growth.

And I said Islam, along with many other religions and philosophies, is incompatible with Yabby's materialism.

I hope I cleared that up, and thanks for the compliment.

Yabby, I'm afraid Reginald P. Wimpleton was using your *own* arguments, so he's your friend not mine.

Could you at least try to make sense:
"There is no such thing as objective morality" but....
"Morality is actually grounded in biology".

Could you explain how biology is "subjective".
Does my heart beat according to my own preferred method?
Can I choose not to grow fingernails?

Based on this argument, we shouldn't have equality of the sexes at all, as they have *differing* biologies.

So time to throw away the feminist mantra of "equality".
Men and women should have their own laws, based on their particular biologies.

"The morality of Celivia, Col and myself is superior to yours."
Yes, Yabby. Just keep telling yourself that.

Now please don't have any nightmares about vengeful foetuses ripping your body apart and throwing the bits and pieces in the garbage.

"Yabby, I'm afraid Reginald P. Wimpleton was using your *own* arguments, so he's your friend not mine."

He certainly was not, as I explained.

""There is no such thing as objective morality" but....
"Morality is actually grounded in biology"."

Ok I will explain. Morality is about having an opinion.
All our opinions are subjective. The only ones claiming
such a thing as objective morality, are the RCC, as they
claim to be in touch with the Almighty himself. They
have provivded no substantiated evidence for this and
I certainly do not just take their word for it, for
they have hardly shown to be trustworthy in the past.

When we analyse how what we can call morality evolved,
we can examine various social primate species, our
closest relatives. What we can show is that
they display empathy, food sharing, forms of altruism
etc, various behaviour which benefits social species
to live in harmony. If they all killed each other for
instance, that species would soon be extinct.
So clearly morality has a biological foundation and
the mind is, what the brain does, after all.

"Based on this argument, we shouldn't have equality of the sexes at all, as they have *differing* biologies."

There is no reason that the genders cannot be different but
equal. Like the right of people to make decisions about their
own bodies, be they male or female.

There's a victim here that hasn't been mentioned *once*.

No, not the fathers with no rights.
Not the doctors who can't refuse.
Not the women emotionally and physically scarred by the procedure.
Not the dead unborn.

Nurses.

Does anybody ever consider the impact of this on nurses?

They are the ones who have to put the bits and pieces back together to make sure there isn't anything still inside the woman, like a right arm or left leg.

Yuck!

I can't imagine a more disgusting experience.

Yes, I'm sure nurses have to do lots of yucky things.
But they know that most abortions are not done out of necessity, but *convenience*.
Any other yucky things they do, they know are absolutely necessary.

Imagine the effect on a nurse who is pregnant herself!
Or one who has recently given birth or considering having a child.

What of the "rights" of these women?
Do feminists care about nurses and *their* traumatic experiences?

And no, nurses (and doctors) didn't "sign up" for this.
They studied to help the sick, not harm the healthy.

I don't see why any doctor or nurse cannot refuse to perform a procedure that isn't essential for the *physical health* of the patient.

Should doctors and nurses be *required by law* to perform and assist "boob jobs"?

Yabby: "When we analyse how what we can call morality evolved, we can examine various social primate species."

Okay, let's do that:

Monkeys are territorial. (But nationalism is evil, isn't it Yabby?)

Most monkeys are polygynous and some polyandrous. (So it's only natural that you or your spouse will have an affair)

Some monkeys have no stable mating bonds at all. (Free love. Yeah, baby!)

Monkeys are hierarchical (sorry Yabby, no "equality" here)

Monkeys are matrilineal (sorry, no child support either)

Monkeys don't think about the meaning of life.
Monkeys don't write music.
Monkeys don't explore the world on big ships.
Monkeys don't send rockets to the moon.

Monkeys are selfish.
Monkeys are sexist.
Monkeys are violent.

Monkeys are monkeys, not humans.

I am not going to have my own *advanced* species defined by creatures that throw pooh at each other!

I'll define what's "human" by what I see in humans, and deduce "moral" and "immoral" from that.

Shocka, monkeys and primates are a little different.
We humans are classified as primates. Monkeys have
tails, like primates, we don't.

Some primates are more territorial then others.
Chimps are a bit like humans. They form war parties
and go and kill those from the tribe next door.
Bonobos don't, they just have sex with the tribe
next door :)

Some primates pairbond, such as gibbons. In nature
those species that require extra resources to feed the
offspring, tend to pairbond. Lots of bird species,
foxes, prairie voles, etc. Yup, the odd quickie happens
outside in most species, including humans.

There is a hierarchy in most tribal species, including
humans.

Yup, humans have a larger neocortex, so they ponder
the meaning of life. It also makes them anxious, so
they invent religions. Thankfully other species don't :)

People are selfish, sexist and violent. Like people,
these things vary in primates.

Fact is you share 98% of your dna with bonobos and
chimps. You cannot name me a part of the brain that
you have, which they don't. So they are your long
lost relatives!

Your own so called advanced species has yet to show
if it can live on the planet without completely wrecking
it. We are a destructive species, we really are.

You can define humans as you like. That does not change
the fact that morality is grounded in biology.