Pericles.... you said: (presumably re Kactuz posts ?)

[But to me, the simple act of trawling through someone else's religious texts, with the sole idea of picking out those parts that you can use to draw adverse conclusions about that religion's adherents, is faintly disgusting.]

We are witnessing 'as we write' people blowing themselves and others up right left and centre.

Lets get some perspective here.

1/ This THREAD is about the events at the Red Mosque in Pakistan.
2/ Many lost their lives due to the extremists inside.
3/ The 'claims' and statements made by one of those extremists, (Ghazi) cannot be disconnected from the events themselves.
4/ Now..as predicted, there is an upsurge of religious extremism enveloping Pakistan and taking many lives.

COMMENT. If you fail to see why people would enquire 'why' and then 'trawl' through religious texts to find out why, then mate..what are u doing here?

You seem to be disconnected from reality there.

You can understand the behaviour of Christians by 'trawling' through our scriptures. Me again.. "Go into all the world.. make disciples" now that.. anyone could trawl though and find that,and they would be spot on. It totally explains my modus operandi framework. What that verse alone does not explain is the way I do it.

In this forum, you may ask "Why does Bozo take ancient religious texts and use them as a verbal weapon against others"?
Not that I'd put it quite like that.. I'd call it 'tool' rather than weapon.
You could find this verse

1Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

Now.. if you detected LACK of gentleness and respect, you would have every right to lay that verse on me (and others) in no uncertain terms. But stating unpalatable facts is not lacking in respect, nor is it 'rough'.

This applies to Kactuz' 'trawls' and it just leaves the added question 'are they relevant'?

>>This THREAD is about the events at the Red Mosque in Pakistan<<

To me, the thrust of the article was the political implications of Musharraf's intervention against the militants at the Red Mosque. It also reminded us that Zia al Huq supported the US and the Taliban against the USSR in Afghanistan. Later General Musharraf's also supported the US, but this time against the Taliban. Both situations led to the attraction into Pakistan of Afghani religious zealots and terrorists.

>>If you fail to see why people would enquire 'why' and then 'trawl' through religious texts to find out why, then mate..what are u doing here?<<

I see religious extremism as being at the root of the problem, but I do not need to trawl through Islamic texts to find reasons for it. Nor does the article. You see this as being disconnected from reality, whereas I simply see it without the distortion provided by your predisposition to radical Christianity.

I know it is difficult for you to understand, but I promise to keep trying to help you along. People who themselves are fanatical religionists will invariably and inevitably see the world through the lens of their own religious prejudices.

It happened for a long time in Northern Ireland - you were defined by your religion either as a Proddy Dog or a Mad Mick:

"Moishe was walking home one evening when he was dragged into an alley. He felt a gun at his head. 'Are you Catholic or Protestant?'. 'I'm Jewish, says Moishe quickly. The gunman thought for a moment. 'Are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?'"

As a result, continual rummaging through ancient scriptures to help understand today's events simply baffles me. Why can't you instead use your undoubted intelligence to decipher these events in the context of modern world affairs?

Why do you feel it is necessary to dredge up stuff that was written for an entirely different audience, in an entirely different cultural environment, for an entirely different purpose, in order to paint current events in the garish colours of your own religious prejudice?

Exacto!

The question is if the basic Islamic texts (Quran and ahadith) are relevant to Islam, Islamic theology and Muslims' actions.

Now that is a very stupid question.

Of course they are. So why don't Muslims want to talk about the difficult passages, relating to hate and violence?

My experience is that most Muslims either do not known about them or they do know and prefer top ignore them. Except for the radicals. They know all about them and they use them.

I would feel a lot better if I could find "moderate" Muslims discussing these difficult issues on the Internet. That was my challenge above and it remains.

Muslims do not want to talk about these issues. Here is one of maybe a hundred examples:
http://alternativeentertainment.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/greatest-day-of-my-life-not/

This blog wonders about the "crazies" in the Muslim community,. Fine. But that is it. No deep thoughts. No analysis of "why". Nada. So I post a few lines suggesting that the problem may be linked to Islam (blablabla, you know me).

Do they respond? Nope, they delete my post (again, for the 4562nd time on the Internet) and other readers castigate me (I am brain dead. I need to study Islam, etc...)

So much for dialogue. So much for trying to get Muslims to take a critical honest look at Islam.

Muslims make zombies look rational. It would be funny if we weren't talking about life and liberty and basic human rights.

You guys take care.

John, really old man kactuz

PS: What to Muslims yell in an Islamic strip club?
Answer: Show us your ankles! Show us your ankles!
(Joke told to me by a Muslim)

kactuz, I think that you are closer to the answer than you realise.

>>My experience is that most Muslims either do not known about them or they do know and prefer top ignore them. Except for the radicals. They know all about them and they use them<<

And precisely the same goes for the radical Christian, who also knows about them and chooses to use them.

To the rest of us - and I have to tell you, it is the majority - who are not radicalized by either (or any) religion, we couldn't give the proverbial cuss about them.

So we are left with a dangerously self-perpetuating situation. Every time a radical fanatic on either side picks up the scripture and waves it at the other, a couple more terrorists are created.

Doesn't this bother you? I know it doesn't bother Boaz, who uses every thread to try to evangelize his own religion and denigrate all the others.

So maybe it is a characteristic of the radical Christian to do exactly what he accuses his opposition of doing, which is to interpret an ancient religious text in a manner that inflames and incites.

I think we might be getting somewhere at long last.

Well well.
It is absolutely true that it is human nature not to accept the fact that he might be wrong.
Kactuz, Paul, the links you are mentioning above are NOT created by muslim scholars. It is a study done by some other religious people.
Tell me something here maybe i am stupid:
Why can't we just stop bashing the RELIGIONs and accept the fact that it is a few bad apples that are giving it a bad name. We should target those PEOPLE. It will be a lot easier.
Instead of spending countless hours, days, months and years trying to study others HOLY BOOKS just for the purpose of proving them wrong, wouldn't it a good idea to understand and follow your OWN religion. It will be much better. This is not for Christians or Muslims, its for all religions.
Life is beautiful, why not live it to the fullest. Guys, i believe, in Christainity you believe in the last day when every one will be judged to what he has done in this life, Right?
Again, dont listen to what others say? Bcause they are money making organziations serving their own purpose.
Attacking others prophets leads to nowhere. It is just pathetic.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE GUYS, SINCE JOINING THIS FORUM I HAVE WRITTEN QUITE A FEW MESSAGES AND NONE ARE ANY WHERE I HAVE ATTACKED OTHER RELIGIONS, WHILE IN THIS POST, I HAVE SEEN GUYS ATTACKING MOHAMAD PBUH, ISLAM, OUR HADITH WITH WRONG REFERENCES, HISTORY OF ISLAM. WOW.

WHO IS TO BLAME NOW? CHRISTIANITY OR SOME BAD APPLES.

Farooq, you must have noticed that even though many of us don't agree with you, none of us have threatened you or attempted to stop you from putting your point of view. In fact we have debated it with you. This same right is not reciprocated on Muslim run discussion sites is it?
Whilst the muslim community allows people like Sheik Hillali to speak for them, I am afraid your attempts to convince us of Islams peaceful and inclusive nature won't be taken seriously.