Pericles Farooq

The way of reason and tolerance is a hard one. All human groups have their fanatics.

Islam was once the centre of reason and enlightenment. It has to return. Have you any idea how this will be brought about? It does seem to me that the many and different Islamic groups in Australia have to take a stronger and more public stand against those who defame the faith.

PERICLES.. I offer you Alchemist and West... two users who have poured out venom on venom against Christians and belief in Christ.

Farooq... I don't know why you refer to the MSA.. Muslim Students Association as not a legitimate site. The issue is the translation anyway.. and the hadith as you provided it verbatum as in their site.

You missed one point. Yes, I agree Mohammad did not want the Muslims to build any mosque over his grave, but he actually did "curse" the Jews and Christians for doing this. He could have simply said "Do not do as the Jews and Christians do" etc..

I don't see your explanation of Surah 9:30 by the way, would you mind sharing how you see this ?
I discussed this with Fellow Human in person today (He is in Melbourne) and while he has his views, which I now know, I'd like to know yours separately please.

cheers
BD

FAROOQ... one more thing mate. I'm sure if we could sit down and look at these things closely, you would see where I'm coming from. Don't take offence please at my rather vigorous defense of how I (and some others) see things Islamic.

My prayer for you is that under the guidance and grace of God, you will see His love for you, and see also that it is most clearly manifested in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not the 'muslim' version, but the real one... Son of Man, Son of God..God the Son...Prophet, Priest and King. "Before Abraham was...I am"
blessings

Farooq "Islam says it is, does christianity or any other religion say that?"

A strangely ignorant statement - one would imagine that posters would have the courtesy to learn a little before posting here. In answer to this question:

Commandment 7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

'you guys believe everything your governments tell you. When in fact you know your governments are corrupt.'

Nobody I know believes everything they're told by the government (of either political party), so this comment is beyond ignorance. In fact, most Australians are quite sceptical regarding politicians and governments. And as for 'our' governments being corrupt, maybe the poster should take a close-up look at the governments of Islamic countries, some of the most corrupt and murderous regimes on earth.

Sir Muhammad Iqbal( knighted by the British in 1922), the spiritual Father of Pakistan, was a brilliant Indian Muslim poet, philosopher, and politician. He was a strong proponent of the political and spiritual revival of Islamic civilisation across the world. Iqbal is credited with first proposing the idea of an independent state for Indian Muslims, which would inspire the creation of Pakistan.

Quotes from Iqbal:

“Islam does not bifurcate the unity of man into an irreconcilable duality of spirit and matter. In Islam, God and the Universe, spirit and matter, church and state are organic to each other. For such a group of people, the concept of an Indian nationhood and the construction of a polity on national lines amounted to a negation of the Islamic principles of solidarity and, therefore, not acceptable to Muslims.”

“Is it possible to retain Islam as an ethical ideal and to reject it as a polity, in favor of national polities in which [the] religious attitude is not permitted to play any part?”

To this question, Iqbal’s answer is an emphatic NO.

“The religious ideal is organically related to the social order which it [Islam] has created. The rejection of the one will eventually involve the rejection of the other. Therefore, the construction of a polity on national lines if it means the displacement of the Islamic principles of solidarity is simply unthinkable to a Muslim. This is a matter which at the present moment directly concerns the Muslims of India.”

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_iqbal_1930.html#01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal

Today, we have the benefit of hindsight. The Red Mosque saga is one of many living examples of how Islam as a religion and ideology has failed. It also shows the bad state the Muslims are in. Sir Iqbal’s dream of a country governed using Islamic principles have gone up in ashes. Pakistan has been classified as one of the world’s top failed state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm

Yet there are dreamers in OLO looking for an Islamic utopia in the 21st century. Please get real.

Boaz, in response to my statement that there is no "anti-Christian, anti-Jewish" material on this site that comes within a bull's roar of the stuff you place here", you state:

>>I offer you Alchemist and West... two users who have poured out venom on venom against Christians and belief in Christ.<<

There is no "Alchemist" in the list of contributors, so that is a tough one to check up on.

And while "West" certainly doesn't appear to be exactly pro-religion, I wasn't able to detect any vilification against Christianity of the calibre you have presented against Islam.

Perhaps you have examples that we can look at together?