NO - Pakistan will never be free from Islamic extremism, as long as Islamic law is not the only rule of government. Islam - true Islam - cannot share power with any other political system.

Only Allah rules over mankind - democracy is people's rules, by people, for people, an impossibility in Theocracy.

Military rule is the only way to maintain temporary order and artificial control wherever Islam exist as a majority.

Foreign dominance? Taliban-style infiltration is part and parcel of day to day living.

Pakistan cannot but support Islamic terror... the reality of Islamic anger against any government is waiting for any opportunity to express itself - as we have seen at the mosque...

True democracy is an impossibility, a western dream never to be realised anywhere where Islam is the dominant religion.

The destiny of the people of Pakistan is not freedom but more slavery to Islam ... the choice is clear.

We don't want a RED MOSQUE event here in Melbourne.. or anywhere in Australia.

Many lessons to be learnt from this. In particular how radicals will infect a place, and take over.

Witness the refugee camps in Lebanon... same mob.

Are they people of the same mind set in Australia ? Undoubtedly, but as to how many, only time will tell.

RALLY AGAINST SHARIA Sep 11 11:00am Parliament house steps..Melbourne.

Let us not mix what Islam stands for with terrorism.
I dont see any terrorism in this age..i see political terrorism.
How many of you agree adultry is a sin?
Islam says it is, does christianity or any other religion say that?
What happened in the red mosque was a tradegy, since the media was not allowed to uncover the whole story or the truth.
The government mafia did a pretty good job of a coverup.
What do they face now? Its the political terrrorism of the government that led to resistance and a back lash which they claim now is islamic terrorism.
I'm quite surprised when people do not know the whole truth, you guys believe everything your governments tell you. When in fact you know your governments are corrupt.

Farooq,

Welcome to the OLO Forum.

Before you start attacking Christianity, all other religions, all governments, and adulterers, can you please take a deep breath sit down and enlighten us on what really happened there – at the mosque?

Is it possible that Islam could take some responsibility for this barbaric behaviour?

Why don’t Christians start killing helpless civilians every time Canberra makes a mistake?

Tell us the whole truth buddy. What did the bad people do? Were they not all Muslims? Or some were wearing Muslim disguises?

Do we need to be alarmed now in Australia when even Muslim Doctors are found implicated with Islamic terrorism? Please tell us it’s all just a dream (err… a nightmare).

Tell us that tomorrow all Muslims will wake up accepting the peace of Jesus Christ, The Spirit of Allah, the only prophet alive today who can forgive all your sins and let you in paradise...(Mohammad could not guarrantee that and is now dead)

Forget the hatred of Islam... so we can all live as one in real peace like God (Allah) intended. Or does Allah only speak to Muslims? All others will burn in hell, heh?

Please tell us your version of the truth.

Coach,

sighhhhhhhhhhhhh

Tell me something, what US or western countries are doing in Iraq, afghan or as a matter of fact other non-western countries, is it possible that christianity could take some responsibility for those killings? Why is Islam only attacked? Could it be due to some person and not some religion? Why are 3000+ people that died on 9/11 innocent, while 300,000+ civilians dead in Irag and Aghan are casualties. Countries are invaded and put into civil wars just for 3000+ people. Does it mean if i need to avenge the life of one person then i need to kill 1000? Blame the governments not the religions, buddy.
Barbaric behaviour of the dead or the one that killed? Please clarify.
Why don’t Christians start killing helpless civilians every time Canberra makes a mistake? (You guys are already doing that my friend. 300,000+ helpless civilians died for nothing, and who is to blame)
(Okay, so what did the bad people do? Did they kill anyone? Did they have anything to hide? Innocent children disappeared)

(i cant say anything about Jesus since i believe in him. All i can say is no Prophet can gurrantee you paradise if you sin, it is only possible if Allah desires. Tell me something coach, you guys make jokes about your Prophet. Cartoon jokes, dirty jokes and all. It is respectful to make fun of someone who is trying to save you from hell? pretty strange eh!!)

(Seems like you only questioning without realizing what you are questioning. Take a deep breath. Allah does not speak to anyone, even the muslims. What is the purpose of sending messengers and prophets if Allah was to speak to us? Listen to the message your Prophet sent and act upon it.
Are you the type that likes to talk the truth? what is wrong is wrong and what is right is right? Take my advice, dont speak the truth, else you become a terrorist like anyone else.
Cheers

Farooq,
If you can’t see the difference between terrorists deliberately killing 3000 innocent civilians and Islamic militants dying in battle whilst fighting their enemies, I’ll tell you.

Those 3000 in New York didn’t have a clue that they were at war with anyone. They weren’t wearing a uniform. They weren’t armed to defend themselves and they weren’t (mostly) working for the US Gov’t. Those terrorists killed in Iraq and Afghanistan had weapons and knew that their enemy was coming.

The vast majority of the innocent deaths in Iraq were caused by other MUSLIMS. A small minority of the innocents killed in Iraq were killed by the coalition whilst fighting a “HEROIC” enemy who shielded themselves with women and children. Unfortunately whilst defending themselves from these “BRAVE” men, innocents were caught in the crossfire.

This is what occurred in the red mosque. The islamo fascist “HEROES” again hid behind the skirts of women and children. In fact one of the “HEROIC” leaders was captured trying to escape whilst wearing a burka. Those in the red mosque were also given many, many opportunities to surrender and chose instead to fight it out. Their fait was of their own choosing, the victims of 9/11 had no such luxury.

By the way, most normal people don’t think that rape is adultery and we don’t kill the victims. Sharia is not gods law, its MUSLIM mens law and it belongs in the dark ages where it came from.

"The country (Pakistan), which was created in the name of protecting the civic and religious rights of (the then) Indian Muslims, has been unable to develop strong governance based on democraty and a justice system with the dominant values of freedom of speech, faith and other civic values." Duhhhh, but these values are the opposite of Islam.

The sole reason for the existence of Pakistan is Islam. There is little difference between the Indians and the Pakistanis - except the Pakis remain obedient to their Arab masters and their evil religion.

Here is how Muslims view the 800 years they ruled India:
"History of Muslims in India, is in fact, the history of a most eventful, colourful and glorious period. Islam not only bestowed this country with an effective government and a perfect administration but also a new civilization and a rich culture.
(https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no31973.htm)

Here is how a modern historian sees the same period:
Islamic rule in India as a "colonial experiment" was "extremely violent", and "the Muslims could not rule the country except by systematic terror. Cruelty was the norm -- burnings, summary executions, crucifixions or impalements, inventive tortures. Hindu temples were destroyed to make way for mosques. On occasion there were forced conversions. If ever there were an uprising, it was instantly and savagely repressed: houses were burned, the countryside was laid waste, men were slaughtered and women were taken as slaves." (A History of Civilizations - Penguin 1988/1963, p.232-236)

And now about 'Status of religious freedom in India':
"Modern India came into existence in 1947 as a secular nation, two of the large sections of India, were partitioned into a new Islamic nation, Pakistan (East Pakstan later became Bangladesh). In Pakistan, the Hindu population declined from 24% to about 1.5%, in Bangladesh the Hindus declined from 39% to 10%. The Muslims in India have increased from 10.3% to 13.4%"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_India

As usual, Muslims murder and persecute non-Muslims where they dominate - a neverending jihad against infidels.

It all goes back to Mohammad, who killed, robbed, enslaved, lied, raped, tortured - and Muslims love him.

Kactuz

Farooq,

Welcome....
It is always nice to have new people here. Maybe you can help me.

About killing civilians... it is wrong. Period. Anybody who kills innocent people is scum, right? Under any circumstances.

So what do you think about your dear prophet saying that killing women and children is OK?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4321

And how about night raids on sleeping villages?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4292

And what about brutal murders of pregnant and old women?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

How about a liittle barbaric torture
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

Or just beating your wife for the heck of it?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141

See, that is the difference. Yes, Christians kill. Westerners kill. You condemn it. I condemn it.

Now how about condeming Islam's great prophet? Would you care to confirm he was a vile man? (a good leader, general and even had a sense of humour, but also lustful, cruel and evil)

Or may you could indicate a link to an Islamic site discussing the morality these incidents linked above? Or don't Muslims want to talk about these things?

That is the difference.

Kactuz

PS: These accounts of murder, torture, plunder, enslavement, rape, and abuse of women and non-muslims are found in the most reliable hadiths and in the very earliest works of Islam (Buhkari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Ishaq, Kathir, Hisham, etc...). It is not one or two stories, either, but hundreds of vile actions found in all accounts.

And yet Muslims say "Praise be unto him" after this man's name

Dear Farooq....
as you can see, some of us would like to win an argument rather than win your heart... its a big temptation... like when I've been on 'Muslim Village'.. trying to make known many of the issues that Kactuz has made known in his post above this one... why ? because unless Muslims KNOW the WHOLE truth... they are in danger of being hoodwinked by those wish to control their minds and destinies by limiting their exposure to truth.

But welcome.. yes I echo that. You are not only welcome to be here now, but for as long as you like. When I've said things critical of Islam on Muslim village..I (and most others) are BANNED within 24hours. You won't be banned here.. we have this thing about 'open-ness' that is sadly lacking in most Islamic circles.

A couple of points though from your post.

You said:

"you guys make jokes about your Prophet. Cartoon jokes, dirty jokes and all. It is respectful to make fun of someone who is trying to save you from hell? pretty strange eh!!)"

Now.. this is highly important for your understanding of 'freedom'.

1/ We are not a 'Christian Theocracy', we are basically a secular democracy.
2/ Who are 'you guys' ? It sure is not me, Coach, or many others who call on the Lord Jesus as our Lord and Saviour here. But it might well be those 'men in the street' who know nothing of His love.

3/ The Lord Jesus,- HIS desire is that of a Shepherd..seeking lost sheep, including those who in ignorance make jokes about Him.

I highly recommend you listen to this audio debate between Jay Smith and Shabir Aly (Muslim Christian debate) and learn some facts about the Quran, and history of Islam which you probably won't ever hear in a Mosque.

http://muslimhope.com/Debates.htm

click on "Jay Smith vs Shabir Aly Birmingham 1998"

It might be the beginning of true life for you.
blessings
BD

The sheer arrogance of some of these posts is mind-blowing.

Why is it so important for the fanatical Christians to demean and denigrate someone else's faith so much? To take such pains, to go to such great lengths, to uncover ancient texts that purport to show the opposition as monstrous?

Does it give you a sense of satisfaction to do this? Does it make you feel a warm glow of self-righteousness each time you discover a new insult? Do you feel, perhaps, that you are doing "God's work", bringing to the heathen the knowledge that they have strayed?

Because I have to tell you, it has the opposite effect on me. And if that is the way I react as an atheist, just imagine for a moment the impact on a pious Muslim. Your insults simply provide proof positive that you are a bunch of hypocritical, sneering, supercilious know-nothings.

Just for a moment, imagine yourself in the shoes of an everyday Afghani or Iraqi, and then ask yourself how they might feel about your attempts to justify killing 300,000 of them in forcefully occupying their land, by saying they are all terrorists.

Paul.L: >>Those terrorists killed in Iraq and Afghanistan had weapons and knew that their enemy was coming<<

All 300,000, Paul.L? All with weapons, facing the enemy? How many of those might in fact fall into the 9/11 category that "didn’t have a clue that they were at war with anyone. They weren’t wearing a uniform. They weren’t armed to defend themselves and they weren’t (mostly) working for the... Gov’t."?

I fail to see how anyone believes that insults like these will somehow help bring about the end of terrorism. All you are doing is pouring more gasolene onto the flames.

Boazy: "Many lessons to be learnt from this. In particular how radicals will infect a place, and take over."

Yes, I've noticed how fundy Christians and other radical Islamophobes tend to infect certain threads here at OLO, and take over.

Pericles is correct - their endless carping about Islam and Muslims only increases the antipathy of us more rational types to religions in general - and their versions of Christianity in particular.

I note on another thread that Boazy is attempting yet again to rouse the rabble to another of his doomed Islamophobic demonstrations. What's the bet that it will be exactly as successful as his other forays into Mosely-Land?

I would just like to correct a few misconceptions. First I am an atheist, and my attacks on Muslim ideology are more numerous because they are the ones who are advocating the deaths of innocents. I also abhor the fundamentalist Christians.

The difference, and I think it is vital, is that the terrorists believe any westerner is a target, man woman or child. I am sure not even you believe that the US/Australian/British armies deliberately set out to kill unarmed women and children. Innocent people dying is a tragedy no matter what their religion. Unfortunately in Iraq, BRAVE FREEDOM FIGHTERS hide behind the skirts of women and children whilst attacking the coalition. Innocent people die in the crossfire.

As for 300,000 people being killed, if that is the correct number, do you hold us responsible for the acts of terror Al Qaeda commits against the Shia in Iraq? Or for the massacres that the Iranian backed Shia group the Mahdi army commit? The vast majority of innocent civilians killed in Iraq die at the hands of fellow Muslims.

I don’t believe that the end of terrorism will be achieved by negotiating with terrorists. I believe it just encourages them to greater heights. I fear that those who hate bush/howard will use everything they can to do damage to them, including pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and thus handing a massive propaganda victory to the terrorists. I believe the results of this would be catastrophic, not just to Iraq and Afghanistan and moderate Muslim nations but for the whole world

Farooq,

Thanks for staying – most radical Muslims before you had a very short fuse (excuse the punt)

1. …what US or western countries are doing in Iraq, afghan… is it possible that christianity could take some responsibility for those killings?

War wasn't the correct response to 9/11. But You're confusing bush-blair-howard with Christianity.

2. Why is Islam only attacked?

This is your biased suspicion – historically not true.

3. … 3000+ people that died on 9/11 innocent, while 300,000+ civilians dead in Irag and …Does it mean if i need to avenge the life of one person then i need to kill 1000?

Again you are seeing it a revenge killing. The war was on terrorism I thought. BTW your maths should be 100 for 1, not 1000.

4. Barbaric behaviour of the dead or the one that killed? Please clarify.

Killing is killing. All barbaric and animalistic. Not civilised.

5. (i cant say anything about Jesus since i believe in him. All i can say is no Prophet can gurrantee you paradise if you sin, it is only possible if Allah desires.

You don’t know Jesus - you just believe what is in the Qur’an. Jesus forgives sins because He is God. Read the Injill.

6. … coach, you guys make jokes about your Prophet. Cartoon jokes, dirty jokes and all. It is respectful to make fun of someone who is trying to save you from hell? pretty strange eh!!)

Jesus is more than a prophet. I have the same respect for Him as God. Jesus is not just “trying” (insha’ Allah) but He has already done it on the cross.

Again you are confusing Christians with what you watch on TV.

7. Allah does not speak to anyone, even the muslims. What is the purpose of sending messengers and prophets if Allah was to speak to us?

Sorry buddy - Jesus is the Word of God. God (Allah) speaks to us though the Holy Spirit that lives IN us.

8. Do you want the truth? First you must believe the Bible is the TRUE word of God?

Pericles.. that last post of yours was rather shabby mate... you 'vilified' all those criticizing Islam.. and yet this very thread is concerned with Islamic radical mayhem, murder and many good people have died due TO that radicalism.. you seem to be suggesting that radical Islam is beyond scrutiny ?

I'm not sure who is doing the 'insulting' unless in my case if you consider pointing to a discussion of evidence 'insulting'. Kactuz is quite animated yes, but I'm not sure if he is Christian.. perhaps he can enlighten us.

PAUL L.. speaking as a conservative evangelical protestant Christian, and addressing your 'I abhor fundamentalist Christians'.. I think abhor is a bit strong, unless you qualify the term 'fundamentalist'.. for example "Like Fred Phelps"... if that's who you have in mind then we are 'one' on that score. But if you mean "Like Boaz and Coach".. it's probably good (and quite acceptable to me) to say so, in order that we know how to respond.

Paul, please keep in mind there are many types of fundamentalist. I believe in the fundamentals of the faith, and you can find them in the Nicean Creed. But this does not translate into burning atheists, witches or muslims, in fact, the opposite. As a shepherd searches for a lost sheep, so is the impact of those fundamentals on me, and perhaps others. But the truest fundamentalist is simply one who believes the Scriptures, (correctly interpreted) and has a living relationship with Christ.
Jesus never held back in addressing religious hypocrisy, false teachers, scumbag lawyers, he gave them a decent serve. But in righteousness, not in arrogance.

It is our lot in life I guess, that as we seek to emulate Him, we will never please all the people all the time.

Pericles, CJ, and perhaps urself as cases in point.
blessings.

CJ.. demo will go ahead, minimum 6 people :)

Very well said, Pericles. Agree with you totally.

I'm not here to condem any religion, but one thing i need to clear is no one and i mean no one can be converted to any religion forcefully. If you put a gun to my head and ask me to convert and i do convert to save my life. Is this convertion? while inside i would still practice my religion. Our Prophet never used force to convert others to Islam. Its whats inside that counts.

Dont worry, i wont blow my lid. I have patience.

I'm only sending a message, that do not believe what you hear from others. No religion on the face of this earth asks its followers to commit sin. We have good people, we have bad people. Good go to heaven, and bad go to hell. Right?

With love you can win a war, with hatred you can prolong a war. Its like a give and take. Respect me and i respect you. Respect my religion and i respect yours. When i ask for help, if you can, help me. If you cant, dont. If i dont ask for help, dont portray yourself as saviour of the world when in fact you are just serving your personal interests.

Before juming to conclusions, try to put yourself in others position and feel what others feel.

If our beloved ones are killed in the so-called war on terror, i would certainly hate the ones that killed them, not their religion. The muslims hate americans, britishers or the occupiers, not christians, while the other side, muslims are not hated it is ISLAM. Why? If muslims and muslims are fighting it is because they hate each other as persons, they dont go out and attack religions.

BD and Coach, you guys are too nice.

Pericles, So I "demean and denigrate someone else's faith" by quoting and linking to texts from that faith? Strange idea! How can calling attention to Muslim writings be considered an insult? (except to infidels)

Farooq, No "religion on the face of this earth asks its followers to commit sin." That, of course, depends on the definition of sin. Sin is not synonomous with evil. Eating pork for some is a sin. Bacon is not evil in my book. Once again we go back to what Islam's prophet did. Mohammad murdered, tortues, enslaved, etc.. and Muslims do not denounce this, and consider him to be an example of morality - so I can only conclude that these are not sinful to Muslims.

I dislike Islam because I see it as an intolerant, deceitful, oppressive ideology. I have seen nothing in it or from Muslims to make me reconsider. Worse yet, I have noticed that even "pious" Muslims cannot be honest even about the basic principles of their faith. They may be 'good' people, but they cannot be trusted to stand up for our lives and liberties.

Tell me why I should trust a Muslim that reads the texts linked above and says they don't matter or he doesn't care? Am I being unreasonable?

I don't trust anyone that says PBUH after the name of a person that did the vile things Mohammad did. Oh yes, the threats to me and my family didnt improve my opinion of the 'Relighion of Peace."

People here say that being honest about Islam or hurting Muslims' feeling will drive them into the arms of the radicals. Maybe, maybe not. But for 5 years governments and organizations have been nice to Muslims and nothing has changed. We are still waiting for the moderates to change things. And when is this going to happen?

So why not try truth? Churchill didn't overcome Nazis by being nice. Apartheid in SouthAfrica didn't end by not talking about it. Racism in the American South was not fought by not hurting Whites' feelings.

Continued...

If Muslims want to end all these terrible insults maybe they should just stop preaching and doing hate and violence throughout the world. Or is that too much to ask? Muslims do these things and then blame others for talking about it.

"Our Prophet never used force to convert others to Islam". Are you sure? What about "If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4294
Convert, pay tribute or die. No force there! Nope! None at all.

I can hardly read any statement about Islam from Muslims without finding errors, distortions and lies. Either they don't know their own writings or they are dishonest. Muslims have this tendency to say things about Islam that reflect what they would like to hear, not what their own writings actually say.

I give facts and my opinions. The facts are that Islam is full of hate and violence from its inception, documented in its own texts. My opinion is that these are relevant to current events and explain a lot of things.

Why don't Muslims talk about the hate and violence in their own writings? They can't overcome these because they don't want to consider the problem. The answer is too ugly, too distressing for Muslims to contemplate.

I do this because I believe it is going to get worse, much worse. I blame Muslims. I see no improvements. I can link to posts left here two years ago with the very same people saying that Muslims have to renouce or denounce terror - and did it work? Has the situation improved?

Oh yes, get us out of Iraq and every Muslim country because it won't make any difference. They will still hate and kill, with or without us. They will continue to attack after Iraq, just because we are infidels. It is what Mohammad did, it is what Muslims do - or just make excuses and blame others.

Kactuz

kactuz,

>>So I "demean and denigrate someone else's faith" by quoting and linking to texts from that faith? Strange idea!<<

It may be a strange idea to you, kactuz. But to me, the simple act of trawling through someone else's religious texts, with the sole idea of picking out those parts that you can use to draw adverse conclusions about that religion's adherents, is faintly disgusting.

Since there are similarly aggressively worded clauses in the Bible, this practice has always struck me as the height of hypocrisy.

The other difference in our viewpoints is that I hold both documents in the same esteem: they were written with the intention of recruiting followers, and used man's natural gullibility about the supernatural as the recruitment tool. To me, your witterings about the Qur'an are as meaningful - or, more accurately, meaningless - as Boaz's constant citing of verses from the Bible. So however much you claim that this verse or that verse shows Muslims to be inherently dangerous to the future of life on earth, it only comes across as background noise.

As an atheist I judge people on their actions. You, on their religious affiliations. So to me, as I have said on any number of occasions, the acts perpetrated by the Crusaders in the name of their God in the twelfth century were totally reprehensible, as are the present-day religiously-motivated attacks on innocent bystanders in New York, Madrid, London etc. etc.

So perhaps you can see why to me, all this whack-a-Mozzie stuff appears as an unhealthy obsession.

In the seventies, America poured money into the IRA largely on the basis of stories about what King Billy's Proddy dogs did to the Micks at the Boyne in 1690. The relevance to the 1970s and 80s was infinitesimal, but the emotion - and consequent financial largesse - was huge.

It would have been unrealistic for the public to have taken issue with the entire Irish people for the actions of a few religiously-motivated criminals. So it is today with Muslims and Islamic terrorists.

Pericles.... you said: (presumably re Kactuz posts ?)

[But to me, the simple act of trawling through someone else's religious texts, with the sole idea of picking out those parts that you can use to draw adverse conclusions about that religion's adherents, is faintly disgusting.]

We are witnessing 'as we write' people blowing themselves and others up right left and centre.

Lets get some perspective here.

1/ This THREAD is about the events at the Red Mosque in Pakistan.
2/ Many lost their lives due to the extremists inside.
3/ The 'claims' and statements made by one of those extremists, (Ghazi) cannot be disconnected from the events themselves.
4/ Now..as predicted, there is an upsurge of religious extremism enveloping Pakistan and taking many lives.

COMMENT. If you fail to see why people would enquire 'why' and then 'trawl' through religious texts to find out why, then mate..what are u doing here?

You seem to be disconnected from reality there.

You can understand the behaviour of Christians by 'trawling' through our scriptures. Me again.. "Go into all the world.. make disciples" now that.. anyone could trawl though and find that,and they would be spot on. It totally explains my modus operandi framework. What that verse alone does not explain is the way I do it.

In this forum, you may ask "Why does Bozo take ancient religious texts and use them as a verbal weapon against others"?
Not that I'd put it quite like that.. I'd call it 'tool' rather than weapon.
You could find this verse

1Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.

Now.. if you detected LACK of gentleness and respect, you would have every right to lay that verse on me (and others) in no uncertain terms. But stating unpalatable facts is not lacking in respect, nor is it 'rough'.

This applies to Kactuz' 'trawls' and it just leaves the added question 'are they relevant'?

>>This THREAD is about the events at the Red Mosque in Pakistan<<

To me, the thrust of the article was the political implications of Musharraf's intervention against the militants at the Red Mosque. It also reminded us that Zia al Huq supported the US and the Taliban against the USSR in Afghanistan. Later General Musharraf's also supported the US, but this time against the Taliban. Both situations led to the attraction into Pakistan of Afghani religious zealots and terrorists.

>>If you fail to see why people would enquire 'why' and then 'trawl' through religious texts to find out why, then mate..what are u doing here?<<

I see religious extremism as being at the root of the problem, but I do not need to trawl through Islamic texts to find reasons for it. Nor does the article. You see this as being disconnected from reality, whereas I simply see it without the distortion provided by your predisposition to radical Christianity.

I know it is difficult for you to understand, but I promise to keep trying to help you along. People who themselves are fanatical religionists will invariably and inevitably see the world through the lens of their own religious prejudices.

It happened for a long time in Northern Ireland - you were defined by your religion either as a Proddy Dog or a Mad Mick:

"Moishe was walking home one evening when he was dragged into an alley. He felt a gun at his head. 'Are you Catholic or Protestant?'. 'I'm Jewish, says Moishe quickly. The gunman thought for a moment. 'Are you a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew?'"

As a result, continual rummaging through ancient scriptures to help understand today's events simply baffles me. Why can't you instead use your undoubted intelligence to decipher these events in the context of modern world affairs?

Why do you feel it is necessary to dredge up stuff that was written for an entirely different audience, in an entirely different cultural environment, for an entirely different purpose, in order to paint current events in the garish colours of your own religious prejudice?

Exacto!

The question is if the basic Islamic texts (Quran and ahadith) are relevant to Islam, Islamic theology and Muslims' actions.

Now that is a very stupid question.

Of course they are. So why don't Muslims want to talk about the difficult passages, relating to hate and violence?

My experience is that most Muslims either do not known about them or they do know and prefer top ignore them. Except for the radicals. They know all about them and they use them.

I would feel a lot better if I could find "moderate" Muslims discussing these difficult issues on the Internet. That was my challenge above and it remains.

Muslims do not want to talk about these issues. Here is one of maybe a hundred examples:
http://alternativeentertainment.wordpress.com/2007/07/01/greatest-day-of-my-life-not/

This blog wonders about the "crazies" in the Muslim community,. Fine. But that is it. No deep thoughts. No analysis of "why". Nada. So I post a few lines suggesting that the problem may be linked to Islam (blablabla, you know me).

Do they respond? Nope, they delete my post (again, for the 4562nd time on the Internet) and other readers castigate me (I am brain dead. I need to study Islam, etc...)

So much for dialogue. So much for trying to get Muslims to take a critical honest look at Islam.

Muslims make zombies look rational. It would be funny if we weren't talking about life and liberty and basic human rights.

You guys take care.

John, really old man kactuz

PS: What to Muslims yell in an Islamic strip club?
Answer: Show us your ankles! Show us your ankles!
(Joke told to me by a Muslim)

kactuz, I think that you are closer to the answer than you realise.

>>My experience is that most Muslims either do not known about them or they do know and prefer top ignore them. Except for the radicals. They know all about them and they use them<<

And precisely the same goes for the radical Christian, who also knows about them and chooses to use them.

To the rest of us - and I have to tell you, it is the majority - who are not radicalized by either (or any) religion, we couldn't give the proverbial cuss about them.

So we are left with a dangerously self-perpetuating situation. Every time a radical fanatic on either side picks up the scripture and waves it at the other, a couple more terrorists are created.

Doesn't this bother you? I know it doesn't bother Boaz, who uses every thread to try to evangelize his own religion and denigrate all the others.

So maybe it is a characteristic of the radical Christian to do exactly what he accuses his opposition of doing, which is to interpret an ancient religious text in a manner that inflames and incites.

I think we might be getting somewhere at long last.

Well well.
It is absolutely true that it is human nature not to accept the fact that he might be wrong.
Kactuz, Paul, the links you are mentioning above are NOT created by muslim scholars. It is a study done by some other religious people.
Tell me something here maybe i am stupid:
Why can't we just stop bashing the RELIGIONs and accept the fact that it is a few bad apples that are giving it a bad name. We should target those PEOPLE. It will be a lot easier.
Instead of spending countless hours, days, months and years trying to study others HOLY BOOKS just for the purpose of proving them wrong, wouldn't it a good idea to understand and follow your OWN religion. It will be much better. This is not for Christians or Muslims, its for all religions.
Life is beautiful, why not live it to the fullest. Guys, i believe, in Christainity you believe in the last day when every one will be judged to what he has done in this life, Right?
Again, dont listen to what others say? Bcause they are money making organziations serving their own purpose.
Attacking others prophets leads to nowhere. It is just pathetic.
ONE THING IS FOR SURE GUYS, SINCE JOINING THIS FORUM I HAVE WRITTEN QUITE A FEW MESSAGES AND NONE ARE ANY WHERE I HAVE ATTACKED OTHER RELIGIONS, WHILE IN THIS POST, I HAVE SEEN GUYS ATTACKING MOHAMAD PBUH, ISLAM, OUR HADITH WITH WRONG REFERENCES, HISTORY OF ISLAM. WOW.

WHO IS TO BLAME NOW? CHRISTIANITY OR SOME BAD APPLES.

Farooq, you must have noticed that even though many of us don't agree with you, none of us have threatened you or attempted to stop you from putting your point of view. In fact we have debated it with you. This same right is not reciprocated on Muslim run discussion sites is it?
Whilst the muslim community allows people like Sheik Hillali to speak for them, I am afraid your attempts to convince us of Islams peaceful and inclusive nature won't be taken seriously.

Yes, we are debating and appreciate that so far i am not banned here. On the other hand, i havent left as well.

Convincing others that my religion is peaceful is my goal. I do not join any forums that attacks others, instead of debates. Bcause attacking is never one of the ways of winning any ones hearts or convincing them. Whether it be muslim sites or other.

Attacking instead of debates i believe was one of the reasons that we have created many religions within one. example is shias and sunnis etcc. within islam. I believe the same is applicable in others as well.

Let us all clean our houses first before asking others. That goes for all religion followers. If i cant do it myself, then what is the use of convincing others. You might notice that i have not given any references to prove myself right. I might not be perfect muslim, but i will try, but at the same time i want my religion to be respected and send a message that what is happening MIGHT be due to some bad apples again, not due to a RELIGION. To me my Prophet is a perfect man, and to you Jesus is a perfect man. let us keep it that way.

Hope you understand. By the way it was good debate and it was good to know that some one does understand even if he is not a part of us.

Cheers.

Refrence to ur article "The red Mosque Saga" u have tried to put the onus of terrorism and extremism on pakistan army,but in fact they are not wholy solely responsible for what is going on inthe country and what had happened in the past."pakistan army" the only institution which has lead the country all the times in hours of peace and war.they have only tried to defend the country's and to protect it from going in to the wrong hands.What they have done in the case of "Red Mosque" tarauma was just under the constitution.
Most importantly how those weapons camein to the capital considered to be the most safest place in the country?is this the failure of the army or security agencies,or local civil authorities?
The administration of the red mosque was plyaing with the lives of 3000 innocent peoples who were unawre of the consequences.the administration must have freed those innocent poeples because the parents of the missing children are still in hope that their children will come out.In order to avoid such type of situations in the future,the peoples of our country need political education so that they can know what their responsibilities are, and what they can do using their powers and their legal rights.
As for as our opinion is concerned pakistan army is not responsible for all these traumas.
Communityhealer@hotmail.com

Refrence to ur article "The red Mosque Saga" u have tried to put the onus of terrorism and extremism on pakistan army,but in fact they are not wholy solely responsible for what is going on inthe country and what had happened in the past."pakistan army" the only institution which has lead the country all the times in hours of peace and war.they have only tried to defend the country and to protect it from going in to the wrong hands.What they have done in the case of "Red Mosque" tarauma was just under the constitution.
Most importantly how those weapons camein to the capital considered to be the most safest place in the country?is this the failure of the army or security agencies,or local civil authorities?
The administration of the red mosque was plyaing with the lives of 3000 innocent peoples who were unawre of the consequences.the administration must have freed those innocent poeples because the parents of the missing children are still in hope that their children will come out.In order to avoid such type of situations in the future,the peoples of our country need political education so that they can know what their responsibilities are, and what they can do using their powers and their legal rights.
As for as our opinion is concerned pakistan army is not responsible for all these traumas

Dear Farooq, as you stated your specific_goal is to convince others that your religion_is_peaceful, I feel I have an open door to share with you why I believe it is not.

But b4 I do, let me share with you the reason why a considerable amount of "Islam Bashing" goes on here.

1/ Asking difficult questions, specially those which might reflect poorly on the character of Mohammad are STRICLY not tolerated on forums like 'Muslim Village'.. but.. anti Christian, anti Jewish, anti 'right wing' anti 'left wing' in fact..anti ANYthing is pretty much tolerated on "this" forum.

2/ Due to the 'strict' censorship on Muslim village, the consequences are as follows:
a) Readers or views of the content are limited to a 'sugar coated' ONLY view of Islam, and they are denied full information which may effect their eternal destinies.
b) When people asking curly questions are banned, they will seek other outlets for the same questions.. welcome to my world.....here.

I have just watched a 79 minute video on youtube of Shabir Aly, and they were crowing about how they had destroyed Christianity, and how fearful the Christians were to debate him. Well.. there will be a comprehensive response video in due course about his subject.
After an allout onslaught against our faith, they THEN had the nerve to claim (as you did) that they are not interested in crushing Christianity or the Bible etc..nope.. not at all. duh.

Finally, by actually SAYING "Islam is peaceful" on this forum, you are in reality furthering the same unchallenged propoganda which is sucking in many innocent people. So..it will be challenged here.

I would be interested in YOUR assessment of Surah 9:30 and why Christians and Jews should not make a complaint in the Equal Opportunity Commission (VIC) for religious and racial vilification?
You can add to that the Hadith
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html

Peaceful ? "Cartoons"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs&mode=related&search=

Notice that moron who said "We will take your wives as war booty"
I offer you "Saffiya" your prophet did this.
As he did,.....these people rage.. same message.

BOAZ,

LOL. Now you got me doing what you all are doing. Meaningless work.
Analyzing information from wrong sites and from wrong people.

The sites everyone in this forum is picking is www.usc.com something which is not even created by a muslim. Below is the right one.

I would be interested in YOUR assessment of Surah 9:30 and why Christians and Jews should not make a complaint in the Equal Opportunity Commission (VIC) for religious and racial vilification?
You can add to that the Hadith
Bukhari Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html

The real hadith:
Volume 4, Book 56, Number 660:
Narrated 'Aisha and Ibn 'Abbas:
On his death-bed Allah's Apostle put a sheet over his-face and when he felt hot, he would remove it from his face. When in that state (of putting and removing the sheet) he said, "May Allah's Curse be on the Jews and the Christians for they build places of worship at the graves of their prophets." (By that) he intended to warn (the Muslim) from what they (i.e. Jews and Christians) had done.
CLEAR MESSAGE THAT HE DID NOT WANT HIS FOLLOWERS TO BUILD A WORSHIPPING PLACE ON HIS GRAVE. HE DID NOT WANT THEM TO START WORSHIPPING HIM.

1/ Asking difficult questions, specially those which might reflect poorly on the character of Mohammad are STRICLY not tolerated on forums like 'Muslim Village'.. but.. anti Christian, anti Jewish, anti 'right wing' anti 'left wing' in fact..anti ANYthing is pretty much tolerated on "this" forum.
Tell me something, by putting up anti Christian remarks, are you expecting Jesus to forgive you; or are you saying Jesus understands that everyone has the right to opinion and disgrace other religions or even your own. And will enter you in paradise. What is it tolerated? If tolerated, is it tolerated by Jesus or his God? Then what is the use of a Judgement day?

Another reason for us to believe, people wasting countless hours just for the purpose of disgracing others, yet with wrong information.

Cheers

Some examples, Boaz?

>>anti Christian, anti Jewish, anti 'right wing' anti 'left wing' in fact..anti ANYthing is pretty much tolerated on "this" forum.<<

Forget the left- and right-wing stuff, that's irrelevant to the argument.

But please, where have you found any "anti-Christian, anti-Jewish" material on this site that comes within a bull's roar of the stuff you place here almost every single day?

Just one. Where is the anti-Christian, anti-Jewish rant that is the equivalent of Kactuz' "So what do you think about your dear prophet saying that killing women and children is OK?... And how about night raids on sleeping villages?... And what about brutal murders of pregnant and old women?... How about a liittle barbaric torture... Or just beating your wife for the heck of it?"

Face it, you are hiding behind self-righteousness, not equivalence.

Pericles Farooq

The way of reason and tolerance is a hard one. All human groups have their fanatics.

Islam was once the centre of reason and enlightenment. It has to return. Have you any idea how this will be brought about? It does seem to me that the many and different Islamic groups in Australia have to take a stronger and more public stand against those who defame the faith.

PERICLES.. I offer you Alchemist and West... two users who have poured out venom on venom against Christians and belief in Christ.

Farooq... I don't know why you refer to the MSA.. Muslim Students Association as not a legitimate site. The issue is the translation anyway.. and the hadith as you provided it verbatum as in their site.

You missed one point. Yes, I agree Mohammad did not want the Muslims to build any mosque over his grave, but he actually did "curse" the Jews and Christians for doing this. He could have simply said "Do not do as the Jews and Christians do" etc..

I don't see your explanation of Surah 9:30 by the way, would you mind sharing how you see this ?
I discussed this with Fellow Human in person today (He is in Melbourne) and while he has his views, which I now know, I'd like to know yours separately please.

cheers
BD

FAROOQ... one more thing mate. I'm sure if we could sit down and look at these things closely, you would see where I'm coming from. Don't take offence please at my rather vigorous defense of how I (and some others) see things Islamic.

My prayer for you is that under the guidance and grace of God, you will see His love for you, and see also that it is most clearly manifested in the Lord Jesus Christ. Not the 'muslim' version, but the real one... Son of Man, Son of God..God the Son...Prophet, Priest and King. "Before Abraham was...I am"
blessings

Farooq "Islam says it is, does christianity or any other religion say that?"

A strangely ignorant statement - one would imagine that posters would have the courtesy to learn a little before posting here. In answer to this question:

Commandment 7: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

'you guys believe everything your governments tell you. When in fact you know your governments are corrupt.'

Nobody I know believes everything they're told by the government (of either political party), so this comment is beyond ignorance. In fact, most Australians are quite sceptical regarding politicians and governments. And as for 'our' governments being corrupt, maybe the poster should take a close-up look at the governments of Islamic countries, some of the most corrupt and murderous regimes on earth.

Sir Muhammad Iqbal( knighted by the British in 1922), the spiritual Father of Pakistan, was a brilliant Indian Muslim poet, philosopher, and politician. He was a strong proponent of the political and spiritual revival of Islamic civilisation across the world. Iqbal is credited with first proposing the idea of an independent state for Indian Muslims, which would inspire the creation of Pakistan.

Quotes from Iqbal:

“Islam does not bifurcate the unity of man into an irreconcilable duality of spirit and matter. In Islam, God and the Universe, spirit and matter, church and state are organic to each other. For such a group of people, the concept of an Indian nationhood and the construction of a polity on national lines amounted to a negation of the Islamic principles of solidarity and, therefore, not acceptable to Muslims.”

“Is it possible to retain Islam as an ethical ideal and to reject it as a polity, in favor of national polities in which [the] religious attitude is not permitted to play any part?”

To this question, Iqbal’s answer is an emphatic NO.

“The religious ideal is organically related to the social order which it [Islam] has created. The rejection of the one will eventually involve the rejection of the other. Therefore, the construction of a polity on national lines if it means the displacement of the Islamic principles of solidarity is simply unthinkable to a Muslim. This is a matter which at the present moment directly concerns the Muslims of India.”

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_iqbal_1930.html#01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Iqbal

Today, we have the benefit of hindsight. The Red Mosque saga is one of many living examples of how Islam as a religion and ideology has failed. It also shows the bad state the Muslims are in. Sir Iqbal’s dream of a country governed using Islamic principles have gone up in ashes. Pakistan has been classified as one of the world’s top failed state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4964934.stm

Yet there are dreamers in OLO looking for an Islamic utopia in the 21st century. Please get real.

Boaz, in response to my statement that there is no "anti-Christian, anti-Jewish" material on this site that comes within a bull's roar of the stuff you place here", you state:

>>I offer you Alchemist and West... two users who have poured out venom on venom against Christians and belief in Christ.<<

There is no "Alchemist" in the list of contributors, so that is a tough one to check up on.

And while "West" certainly doesn't appear to be exactly pro-religion, I wasn't able to detect any vilification against Christianity of the calibre you have presented against Islam.

Perhaps you have examples that we can look at together?

Pericles, regarding Alchemist and West (to name but 2) you could also add Wobbles recent post where he dismisses the Bible as just 'myths' etc. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I'd prefer he did as I do, and provide sources. He tends to generalize.
From memory, Alchemist kind of faded around the time you arrived, so I guess his account has also been somehow suspended. Not surprising with the level of vitriol his posts contained.

I provide chapter and verse, and specific links.

But.. on this issue, the Red Mosque....one important issue does need to be resolved.

*What is the perception among the broader Pakistani Islamic community concerning these radicals*

If they are viewed as 'heros' then one must dig into the psychological and spiritual reasons for this. Only then can the government address them effectively.

Just now on the news, I heard of a Gitmo detainee who was released some time back who has now blown himself up in Afghanistan...

To me, the Americans are very weak when it comes to dealing with the ideology.
I'll be rather blunt here, and speak outside the Christian loop. If it can be determined that those in Gitmo are willing and proud to confess their on going alleigance to Bin Ladin, and the destruction of America, and that they base this on specific Islamic history and teaching, then only 2 realistic options exist.
1/ Counsel them, and try to alter that idea base.... or
2/ Execute them.

Humanly speaking, I cannot see a workable alternative.