"The country (Pakistan), which was created in the name of protecting the civic and religious rights of (the then) Indian Muslims, has been unable to develop strong governance based on democraty and a justice system with the dominant values of freedom of speech, faith and other civic values." Duhhhh, but these values are the opposite of Islam.

The sole reason for the existence of Pakistan is Islam. There is little difference between the Indians and the Pakistanis - except the Pakis remain obedient to their Arab masters and their evil religion.

Here is how Muslims view the 800 years they ruled India:
"History of Muslims in India, is in fact, the history of a most eventful, colourful and glorious period. Islam not only bestowed this country with an effective government and a perfect administration but also a new civilization and a rich culture.
(https://www.vedamsbooks.com/no31973.htm)

Here is how a modern historian sees the same period:
Islamic rule in India as a "colonial experiment" was "extremely violent", and "the Muslims could not rule the country except by systematic terror. Cruelty was the norm -- burnings, summary executions, crucifixions or impalements, inventive tortures. Hindu temples were destroyed to make way for mosques. On occasion there were forced conversions. If ever there were an uprising, it was instantly and savagely repressed: houses were burned, the countryside was laid waste, men were slaughtered and women were taken as slaves." (A History of Civilizations - Penguin 1988/1963, p.232-236)

And now about 'Status of religious freedom in India':
"Modern India came into existence in 1947 as a secular nation, two of the large sections of India, were partitioned into a new Islamic nation, Pakistan (East Pakstan later became Bangladesh). In Pakistan, the Hindu population declined from 24% to about 1.5%, in Bangladesh the Hindus declined from 39% to 10%. The Muslims in India have increased from 10.3% to 13.4%"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_religious_freedom_in_India

As usual, Muslims murder and persecute non-Muslims where they dominate - a neverending jihad against infidels.

It all goes back to Mohammad, who killed, robbed, enslaved, lied, raped, tortured - and Muslims love him.

Kactuz

Farooq,

Welcome....
It is always nice to have new people here. Maybe you can help me.

About killing civilians... it is wrong. Period. Anybody who kills innocent people is scum, right? Under any circumstances.

So what do you think about your dear prophet saying that killing women and children is OK?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4321

And how about night raids on sleeping villages?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4292

And what about brutal murders of pregnant and old women?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/038.sat.html#038.4348

How about a liittle barbaric torture
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

Or just beating your wife for the heck of it?
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/011.sat.html#011.2141

See, that is the difference. Yes, Christians kill. Westerners kill. You condemn it. I condemn it.

Now how about condeming Islam's great prophet? Would you care to confirm he was a vile man? (a good leader, general and even had a sense of humour, but also lustful, cruel and evil)

Or may you could indicate a link to an Islamic site discussing the morality these incidents linked above? Or don't Muslims want to talk about these things?

That is the difference.

Kactuz

PS: These accounts of murder, torture, plunder, enslavement, rape, and abuse of women and non-muslims are found in the most reliable hadiths and in the very earliest works of Islam (Buhkari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tabari, Ibn Sa'd, Ibn Ishaq, Kathir, Hisham, etc...). It is not one or two stories, either, but hundreds of vile actions found in all accounts.

And yet Muslims say "Praise be unto him" after this man's name

Dear Farooq....
as you can see, some of us would like to win an argument rather than win your heart... its a big temptation... like when I've been on 'Muslim Village'.. trying to make known many of the issues that Kactuz has made known in his post above this one... why ? because unless Muslims KNOW the WHOLE truth... they are in danger of being hoodwinked by those wish to control their minds and destinies by limiting their exposure to truth.

But welcome.. yes I echo that. You are not only welcome to be here now, but for as long as you like. When I've said things critical of Islam on Muslim village..I (and most others) are BANNED within 24hours. You won't be banned here.. we have this thing about 'open-ness' that is sadly lacking in most Islamic circles.

A couple of points though from your post.

You said:

"you guys make jokes about your Prophet. Cartoon jokes, dirty jokes and all. It is respectful to make fun of someone who is trying to save you from hell? pretty strange eh!!)"

Now.. this is highly important for your understanding of 'freedom'.

1/ We are not a 'Christian Theocracy', we are basically a secular democracy.
2/ Who are 'you guys' ? It sure is not me, Coach, or many others who call on the Lord Jesus as our Lord and Saviour here. But it might well be those 'men in the street' who know nothing of His love.

3/ The Lord Jesus,- HIS desire is that of a Shepherd..seeking lost sheep, including those who in ignorance make jokes about Him.

I highly recommend you listen to this audio debate between Jay Smith and Shabir Aly (Muslim Christian debate) and learn some facts about the Quran, and history of Islam which you probably won't ever hear in a Mosque.

http://muslimhope.com/Debates.htm

click on "Jay Smith vs Shabir Aly Birmingham 1998"

It might be the beginning of true life for you.
blessings
BD

The sheer arrogance of some of these posts is mind-blowing.

Why is it so important for the fanatical Christians to demean and denigrate someone else's faith so much? To take such pains, to go to such great lengths, to uncover ancient texts that purport to show the opposition as monstrous?

Does it give you a sense of satisfaction to do this? Does it make you feel a warm glow of self-righteousness each time you discover a new insult? Do you feel, perhaps, that you are doing "God's work", bringing to the heathen the knowledge that they have strayed?

Because I have to tell you, it has the opposite effect on me. And if that is the way I react as an atheist, just imagine for a moment the impact on a pious Muslim. Your insults simply provide proof positive that you are a bunch of hypocritical, sneering, supercilious know-nothings.

Just for a moment, imagine yourself in the shoes of an everyday Afghani or Iraqi, and then ask yourself how they might feel about your attempts to justify killing 300,000 of them in forcefully occupying their land, by saying they are all terrorists.

Paul.L: >>Those terrorists killed in Iraq and Afghanistan had weapons and knew that their enemy was coming<<

All 300,000, Paul.L? All with weapons, facing the enemy? How many of those might in fact fall into the 9/11 category that "didn’t have a clue that they were at war with anyone. They weren’t wearing a uniform. They weren’t armed to defend themselves and they weren’t (mostly) working for the... Gov’t."?

I fail to see how anyone believes that insults like these will somehow help bring about the end of terrorism. All you are doing is pouring more gasolene onto the flames.

Boazy: "Many lessons to be learnt from this. In particular how radicals will infect a place, and take over."

Yes, I've noticed how fundy Christians and other radical Islamophobes tend to infect certain threads here at OLO, and take over.

Pericles is correct - their endless carping about Islam and Muslims only increases the antipathy of us more rational types to religions in general - and their versions of Christianity in particular.

I note on another thread that Boazy is attempting yet again to rouse the rabble to another of his doomed Islamophobic demonstrations. What's the bet that it will be exactly as successful as his other forays into Mosely-Land?

I would just like to correct a few misconceptions. First I am an atheist, and my attacks on Muslim ideology are more numerous because they are the ones who are advocating the deaths of innocents. I also abhor the fundamentalist Christians.

The difference, and I think it is vital, is that the terrorists believe any westerner is a target, man woman or child. I am sure not even you believe that the US/Australian/British armies deliberately set out to kill unarmed women and children. Innocent people dying is a tragedy no matter what their religion. Unfortunately in Iraq, BRAVE FREEDOM FIGHTERS hide behind the skirts of women and children whilst attacking the coalition. Innocent people die in the crossfire.

As for 300,000 people being killed, if that is the correct number, do you hold us responsible for the acts of terror Al Qaeda commits against the Shia in Iraq? Or for the massacres that the Iranian backed Shia group the Mahdi army commit? The vast majority of innocent civilians killed in Iraq die at the hands of fellow Muslims.

I don’t believe that the end of terrorism will be achieved by negotiating with terrorists. I believe it just encourages them to greater heights. I fear that those who hate bush/howard will use everything they can to do damage to them, including pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan and thus handing a massive propaganda victory to the terrorists. I believe the results of this would be catastrophic, not just to Iraq and Afghanistan and moderate Muslim nations but for the whole world