It isn't fair for any group to be judged by its bad apples. And when all the evidence people can present is their personal experiences, they cannot expect others who don't share those experiences to accept their view as gospel.

On the other hand, I agree with the sentiments of aqvarius. Let's all lighten up. Me included.

These forums can be addictive. I might go away and finish that advice I had to write which is due next week ...

C J Morgan,
You claim there has been a sustained and personal attack on Irfan by Bango. I would like you to show me where and when this took place. You have obviously got things screwed up again.

Irfan and I haave a difference of opinion about Leb Muslims but I have never critisized Irfan personally. In fact I have a lot of respect for him. I do not envy him his task in defending Islam. I recently told him that if all muslims used the theology that he said he was taught we would not have a problem and that i appreciate him responding to comments made to his articles. I think both Irfan and Waleed Aly, and the couple of muslim girls that write article on OLO occasionally, are genuine with good intentions. Another muslim person I have a lot of respect for is Fellow_ Human, who posts on OLO.

Irfan,
You queried where I got my info from. I read 4-5 papers each morning, including overseas papers sometimes. This is suplemented with radio and TV news and commentary. I use goole to get info on specific matters of interest, e.g. FGM.I have also contributed to and read submissions, by others, to various government inquiries over the years.

I believe that the instances of anti-social conduct and other matters mentioned earlier show clearly that Leb muslims are incompatable with our society. I say the same applies to croats and serbs, their conduct is simply unacceptable. It is their culture and their race ansd.or religion has nothing to do with my conclusion.

The next question is what to do about it. The only real course I can see is to stop immigration of these groups, to prevent further disharmony. Our social cohesion is too important to leave the issue untouched.

I also think the Government should identify if specific groups are responsible for carrying out FGM here, and similar action be taken because that practice is another that I find completely unacceptable.

Irfan sagt: "The idea that entire groups can be judged by the bad apples amongst them is a sheer nonsense".

But Irfan we already do this to young people and there is barely a squeak from anybody about discrimination. If you are under 25 years of age you have to pay a higher rate for car insurance, mainly because it is judged from statistics that people from this age group are over-represented in car accidents. Given that Muslims were most certainly involved in the world's worst terrorist attack on September 11th, 2001 and have been involved in numerous terrorist attacks since, why would it be 'racist' to have Muslims pay higher airline security taxes than other people who want to fly?

Irfan,
Don't you agree that Snappy Tom gives a good example of a whole group being held accountable for the actions of a few, in relation young people and car insurance. Firearms laws are another I can quote. I bet that even all lawyers have some laws or rules they have to abide by, because of the inappropriate actions of a few.

I accept that there are very few extreme muslims, that want to blow people up, but I believe there are much more than a few Leb muslims that have anti social attitudes. This has been starkly evident for years. Malcolm Fraser made a serious mistake when he, against departmental advice, allowed the first influx of these people here many years ago. Now we have 2nd and 3rd generation Lebs with the same cultural attitudes. The croats and serbs are the same, 2nd and 3rd generations rioting and fighting each other, with hatred that goes back centuries. They may not even know why they hate each other, but its cultural. They are brought up that way.

I think it very reasonable that we say "we have had enough of you Lebs and croats and serbs and we will not allow any more of your mobs to come here". Maybe even deny citizenship to those that are not citizens or born here. Of those that are citizens, well we made a mistake in allowing you to come here and we will just have to live with that and hope their conduct improves in future generations. But not compound the problem by allowing more of these groups to come.

If anyone has any ideas of how to fix these problems, without taking such action, I would like to hear it.

AS i said before, the matter of social cohesion is too important to be ignored.

Hello Irfan - I'm glad the Islam you were taught was about being a constructive citizen. Fortunately you are not alone, as many Muslims have a similar socialisation through their religion.
There are two troubles with this, however. One can really only obtain this constructive socialisation if one ignores the Koran. There is so much intolerance and violence in it that its effect on the reader who actually sees what they are reading is pernicious. Good on you for ignoring your Koran.
The second problem is tied to the first. Those Muslims who do not wish to follow the Koran, including the nasty bits, have no defence against those who wish to force the Koran upon them. If those who do not wish to follow the Koran object to it being forced upon them, they are accused of not being good Muslims, of not being Muslims at all, or worst of all, accused of being jews.
Like you, most Muslims are better than their religion would have them be. Which is just as well, as Islam is prefeudal fascism

Snappy Tom's example comes from the insurance industry. You must remember that insurers base their risk assessments on actuarial modelling based on statistical and demographic results.

If you apply the same demographic and actuarial modelling to crime and anti-social behavious, there would be far more white European migrants banned from migrating to Australia. Why? Because crime statistics consistently show that there are more white European males engaged in criminal activity in Australia than persons from other cultural backgrounds.

For instance, if we applied actuarial modelling to the offence of aggravated sexual assault (of which gang rape is one variety), we would have to ensure that white European migrants were banned from settling in Maitland and Cessnock. Why? Because white European males from these areas commit more gang rapes than any other male group in New South Wales.

Over to you, Snappy Tom.