Sells,

It is interesting that Christians wont revisit the architecture of theoocrasia,that faith in relation to mystery cults and the transition from cult to institutional religion. It is there in History, and, not examined with sufficient rigour by Christian congregrations.

With regard my recommendation that congregations and parishioners revisit the the generation either side of Nicaea, I not by way of parallel the way archeologists keep revisiting Troy, especially Troy 6 and Tro 7A, in relation to the "Iliad". Herein, the [lore ballard period of about 500 years between [a probable] Troy and Homer, is constantly being turned over for evidience, wherei, Sir Aurther Evans disproved Heinrixh Schliemann, and, much latter [1980s], Trojan dipomatic letters were discovered in [Communist] East Germany. Today there appears to fact and fiction stemming from investigations.

Herein, would it not be in the best interests of the faithful at large to analyse, analyse and analyse; rather, than listen, listen and listen [to a creed from a priesthood]? Is it not in the faithful's own interest to to discover the competing trinities and the processes that led to their religion, in the same way as a geologists interprets rock strata? If Jesus is not divine or at least reinterpretation of the political and sociological environment point to going [wrongly] done path "A", rather the correctly down path "B" [Jesus was not divine] is not important that people this, so that billions of dollars and millions of man years of effor better employed/deployed? Maybe, Jesus did live and maybe had some good advice for an ancient religious civilization AND a modern, post-Enlightenment, but, it is a great leap to say that he is divine on much less evidence than the city-state "we call" Troy existed. Troy is referred to in the Minoan language, even manifests of products [BBC Michael Wood], but, there is no equlivalent for Jesus. Sell, IF... IF, his divinity is a fabrication, would you want to know?

Sells,

Postscript to the above post: The other thing is that when looking at something like Troy, the Scientists and Historians, will usually mention schools [plural] of thought, what appears to be fact, what is not known, what is up-for-debate and what is spectulation. Christians, I accuse have creed, dogma, articles of faith and catechisms. Anthopologists are open to new knowledge discovery and priesthoods are later closed new knowledge discovery.

Probabity and Common Sense [even for theist]: What is more likely God Exists or Jesus is God?

Regards,

O.

I have moved house over the last weeks and my computer had crashed. But I note the ardent evangelists of the negative still chant out their brainwashed doctrine - "There is no god and those that believe that man is essentially spiritual are deluded!"

I prefer to be deluded in their eyes, because I see the evidence of changed lives - from paths of self destruction to becoming responsible contributors to our society.

Philo,

Hope you are now happily re-established in your new home.

Troy [above] is an interesting topic and it draws parallels with Chistrian religionism. Historians and anthropologists keep turning over the data and re-evaluating the situations [when, how, what level?]. The investigators with label their findings as [tentative] facts, unknown and spectulation. I contrast this approach to the period around Nicaea, and, instead of honesty and pragmatism, see creed, artcles of faith and catechisms. The latter does not let old interpretations to be revisited, in new light. If the accepted god is wrong or Jesus is not divine, would you not want to know? Should not parishioners and congregations be involved in the analyses? [not led by a priesthood: an institution that predates Christianity by at leat 4,000 years? [i.e., in the pre-Western thread, it started as a means to control property in Sumer. Before the OT Hebrews, before Jesus, before Constantine.]

Four things Philo. Who exactly is brainwashing me and for what purpose?

You being deluded or not deluded is not the issue, the issue is power and impact onto and over 'others', the debate is not about you or what I personally think about you.

Thirdly I have never said religion does not change lives. Alchohol and narcotics are beneficial to some people. People are not designed, not created , are not the robots that creation implies. Instead we are concieved and we grow therefore are a diverse lot. That religion is measured as changing lives is testimony that religion and spiritual beliefs is ego centred.

I actually do not know one self destructive atheist or antitheist. There must be some but of all the Christians I do know the majority (not all) are self destructive because they are neurotic , self obsessed , reputation competative, morally ignorant,socially ignorant and egotistical whilst being self ignorant. Not to mention theyve wasted decades of their lives waiting for armageddon. These are people who's lives are out of control and they have no tools to control it outside of superstition, its why they need Jesus or a rabbits foot , or a Tiwi. I am not taking a shot at you Philo , this the the fact in my experience

As far as the religious becoming responsible contributors in this society , what utter nonesense. The weighted majority of religious people are too obsessed with themselves, too busy trying to get a grip on their own lives to even to begin to contemplate another human being other than the way the religious choose to see people. The claim that religion makes people responsible is bogus, you are taking superstition and moral panic too far. Like the good or bad , a person is either responsible or irresponsible regardless of religion and beliefs.

If we go by the current state of beliefs, religion is at best irresponsible. A president called by god has gone to war with one people because another bunch of people were called by god to kill themselves with as many innocents as possible meanwhile a political party in this very country formed to represent god has called in the past for burning Lesbians as witches and now calls for beating little children. While god run agencies are lying about who they are so they can dump their superstitious load on pregnant women. Where is the responsibility? Ask Jim Jones, Geoffery Dharma, Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh and Robert Yates.

Hate to burst your bubble but Brittany Spears had a christian upbringing, it did her a lot of good.