GZ Tan,

Don’t’ worry we know your views that that ‘logic’ and ‘intellects’ are those who see your faith.

The Quran like other Holy books is contextual, how majority of Muslims interpret it including ‘reasons of revelations’ is an obvious peaceful religion for all of us. How Sheikh Fayez and Boaz David interpret it is their problem.

“Attacking those who criticize Islam, is in fact a manifestation of your intolerance”

FH: another twisted logic, you want to be hear all day with painting all muslims with a paint brush and accusing the peaceful majority of intolerance, and you claim to be following the tolerant one!

“Whilst there may be reasons to tolerate Islam, there are also reasons not to tolerate it”.

FH: the argument is valid for all religions including yours. Hitler was quoting from the Bible in his April 1922 speech. I guess one critic might say why don’t you ‘delete’ all the OT from the Bible if it can be misused as it had been throughout the centuries.

“Some of us believe the reasons not to tolerate Islam are greatly compelling”

FH: in French philosophy there was an old saying ‘If I you can’t take it all don’t leave it all’.
I can’t see why you don’t apply the same logic to Islam? Maybe you should start thinking for a week of what is good about it so you can come to a fair assessment.

All the links you send me seems to be just obsessed with Islam.

Boaz,

The early caliphate war ‘fact’ was about tax evasion (Muslims tri bes who stopped paying the state taxes and the capaign targeted othefr Muslims. SO it wasn't about religion.

But I guess if you are lying to yourself, why not Pericles too?
Do you see why you are part of the problem?

Peace,

GZ, when in doubt, consult the OED.

"Tolerance: The action or practice of tolerating; toleration; the disposition to be patient with or indulgent to the opinions or practices of others; freedom from bigotry or undue severity in judging the conduct of others; forbearance; catholicity of spirit."

It is a bit of a stretch to argue that disagreeing with someone is automatically intolerant, as you seem to:

>>Attacking those who criticize Islam, is in fact a manifestation of your intolerance<<

It's also Grey's favourite argument, so I guess it must be taught at the Christian apologetics school.

I'm also a little puzzled about this one:

>>You are not tolerating Islam as such. It is irrelevant, as you are not even bothered with Islam (or any religion)<<

Since when was this about me being intolerant?

>>Whilst there may be reasons to tolerate Islam, there are also reasons not to tolerate it. Some of us believe the reasons not to tolerate Islam are greatly compelling.<<

Exactly. This is precisely why it is important that you don't simply let your hatred of it show, instead you exercise tolerance - "freedom from bigotry or undue severity in judging the conduct of others".

Boaz, Boaz, what are we to do with you?

>>MY ASSERTION: "Islam is based on the idea of military aggression to establish the rule of Allah"
This is 'True, or False' <<

That this is your assertion, is undoubtedly true.

However, since you use different standards of “proof” in deciding what in ancient scriptures is literal and what is metaphorical when comparing and contrasting the two religions, it has to be said that your methodology is suspect, and your conclusions therefore tainted.

It is also unrealistic to take the words of fanatics and extremists as “proof”, given that they are in a very significant minority.

As I have said to you many times before, by insisting that the actions of a tiny minority are typical of the mindset of the majority, you are being inflammatory.

Pericles,

My explanation is simple, yet faithful to the meaning of being tolerant.
I go even further, by repeating- there is (almost) always a 'reason' behind tolerance.

No, disagreeing with someone is not necessary being intolerant.

But disagreeing without a willingness to change, to accept (to put up with) possibility that others views may be equally valid, this amounts to 'bigotry, judging the conduct of others'. This is being intolerant and closed-minded.

I merely wrote "...MANIFESTATION of...intolerance" as a hint you were't even aware of your own intolerance. ( Like I mentioned before, you don't come across as being a tolerant person.)

I can be very intolerant too, especially towards Islam, which I regard the scourge of humanity. (I've absolutely no quarrel with other religions.)

>> You are not tolerating Islam as such....<<

That was merely to further explain meaning of being toterance - If something (eg. Islam) does not bother you, then the word 'tolerance' really does not apply. One can only claim to be tolerant (or intolerant) to something (Islam) , if that something (Islam) is annoying, is a bother.

I believe Islam does not bother you at all. So there is NO NEED of you to exercise tolerance towards it. However you EXPECT others to tolerate Islam. I'd be interested to listen to someone who actually exercises tolerance towards Islam to tell why he/she takes that position.

Which leads me to the REASON behind tolerance next...

>>...This is precisely WHY IT IS IMPORTANT that.... you exercise tolerance <<

What you said amounts to: "The more reasons there are not to tolerate, the more one should exercise tolerance"

Don't you see a quandary in your logic?

Let me extrapolate: "Evil is most untolerable (due to reasons blah blah...), therefore all the more we should exercise the greatest tolerance towards evil"... Is this right?

It's a matter of SOUND JUDGEMENT based on WISDOM that some conclude that - Reasons not to tolerate Islam far out strip reasons to tolerate it.

There is (almost) no such thing as - be tolerant for the sake of tolerance. Do you not agree?

Pericles.. that was outright evasion of response mate.. seriously...

I went to considerable efforts to outline the case clearly, and without undue selection or emphasis..and I showed you from the Islamic documents, with the heading actually 'BEING' the conclusion, because it is also their assertion.. I simply echoed it yet you respond with 'tainted conclusions' ?

Ducking and weaving may evade some blows, but eventually one will land right on the nose, and this one of mine did, yet you are in denial. I'm beginning to think you have a close relative or friend who means much to you and who has embraced Islam, and this in turn taints YOUR conclusions to the point where you deny outright headline fact when it stares you in the face.

You also wrongly again suggest that I am asserting that the mindset of a few is the mindset of the majority and I've not said this. I've said the fundamentals of the FAITH, which are adhered to by a minority, are in fact also driving the majority by virtue of loud and aggresive minorities. I also contend that when pushed, the wider community will retreat to these fundamentals as most faiths do.

None of this claims "the Muslim community" as a whole and at all times holds these dogmas close to their day to day hearts. Yet..again and spuriously, you suggest I'm saying this very thing.

Pericles.. people are actually reading this interaction mate..and if I was you I'd be more careful about how I deal with the subject matter for your own reputations sake.

F.H. "Tax Evasion" ? :) c'mon mate.. I can read.. they became APOSTATE, hence their desire NOT to pay tax to one they no longer regarded as their political head.. Read the hadith..Muslim book 1, 29

"those amongst the Arabs who wanted to become apostates became apostates."

The word APOSTATE is ISLAMS word.. NOT mine. I report..you decide, but do so on the basis of the facts not what you 'wish' was the case.

You did what, Boaz?

>>I went to considerable efforts to outline the case clearly, and without undue selection or emphasis..and I showed you from the Islamic documents, with the heading actually 'BEING' the conclusion, because it is also their assertion.. I simply echoed it yet you respond with 'tainted conclusions' ?<<

I sometimes wonder whether you actually read my posts before replying. You certainly give no indication that you actually understand them.

But perhaps that is because I am being obscure or overly complex. Let me try to make it simpler for you.

On the one hand, you insist that every one of the quotations that you choose from Islamic sources must be read literally.

At the same time, you insist that any quotation from the Bible needs to be interpreted as metaphor.

This is inconsistent. And because your methodology is tainted, so are your "conclusions".

There's no point saying that it "is not 'my' interpretation, it is that of the compilers and publishers of the hadith", when the whole basis of your argument - literal vs metaphorical - is open to significant question.

Some of your fellow-Christians like to take the Bible literally, as I pointed out. You disagree with them, as do I. But you fail to extend the same level of understanding to your religious enemies, don't you?

With all the supporting evidence (e.g. Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer), I am forced to the conclusion that this is not the naive logic of an unworldly observer, but the deliberate act of someone whose entire objective is to generate and nurture venom in others, against a religion that is not his own.

Boaz,

One last attempt:

Fear founds hate and hate lays the ground work to violence.
My point is: what you think of Islam is none of my business but twisting and manipulating knowledge to promote fear is the problem.

The likes of Islamist fundi clerics use the very same techniques: The likes of Hilali or abu Bakr Basheer liken the west and Christianity to the crusades. Promoting fear, hate and violence becomes a normal result.

By acting like them you are being no different and hence my view that you are part of the problem. As much as I believe Islamist clerics should be held to account if a naïve follower falls into their traps, I believe your fellow mob should be held to account as well. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, atheism are all here to stay and no religion replaced the other or ever will. All we can do is to learn to live together and promote harmony.
Please act responsibly.

Hope the penny dropped,

Peace,