Interesting Romany, Cireena, Ankh, and whoever in between … unresearched afterthought: possibly even Ronnie? … “some PEOPLE are good, some PEOPLE are bad”. It explains a lot, but not quite adequately.

Constructive and challenging questions Lizzie4.

I don’t realistically expect to see men’s studies being offered at Universities anytime soon. But as men begin to understand the post-feminist legal and social double-speak, unfair one-sided gender contracts, and begin to fully appreciate its potential for damage to their future family, social and economic lives, so too, will they be in better positions to make more informed choices and perhaps even mitigate some avoidable risks. Simple things perhaps, like not committing, or guilt-free right to demand paternity tests before birth certificates set in concrete.

This knowledge base is relatively new but is growing rapidly. We maybe still in the “raising awareness” phase, but if it proves requiring feminist levels of agitation, activism and subversion, we’ll bring along our drums and spears ;-)

As priorities, men need:

- much more reliable long-term contraception that they control;

- to rid themselves of their romantic, fanciful notions of women and marriage (incl de facto arrangements). To be blunt, they need to be practical, take advice and see beyond the window dressing;

- to develop fulfilling friendships and share time with other men, including older men. In some other cultures men don't seem to have much difficulty in spending hours with one another in street cafes and so on. Pubs are very poor venues and they are expensive (health and wallet).

Men place far too much reliance/importance on women for their social interaction and they should not be backward in demanding quality time with their children, their relatives and other men.

Men should also be conscious of the necessity to maintain some areas of personal independence and action in relationships.

In the past and even still today subjective stories were and have been used to a large degree by feminist claim makers and very effectively as well.

One example which comes to mind is the hysteria which was generated over breast implants, the hysteria bankrupted a company and awarded millions of dollars of compensation to women on the basis of a hysterical mythical claims.

"I pointed to the fact that some posters no longer pretend they are arguing about feminists - they've started addressing women in general.They are engaging in gender-bashing." Romany

There is perhaps not a single woman in Australia today who has not been exposed to feminist philosophy, idealism and even if they do not do womyns studies, many are exposed to feminist philosphy by just reading womens magazines. Some feminist philosphy then becomes accepted in popular culture.

Both Patai and Sommers have indicated that feminism is antagonistic towards men. Just as Romany is by her above attempt at claiming that some are engaging in gender bashing, even though gender bashing has been the hall mark of the feminist movement.

I use to wonder if feminists could ever find anything positive to say about men. Eva Cox once made a comment for which I understand she later apologised for. It was to do with the male suicide rate and she said some thing like "at least they can do that well."

Oh for goodness sake JamesH. You are clearly quite convinced that feminism is intrisically evil.

So tell me, do you believe women should be denied the vote? Should we not be allowed to stand for parliament, or the judiciary? Should there be no women doctors, or lawyers, or accountants? Should women not be allowed to own property without the consent of her male next of kin? Should women be paid less than men for exactly the same job for no other reason than her sex? Should women be forced to leave their jobs after marriage?

Because feminism brought about changes to all these laws.

And as a young woman in this society I'm damn pleased that these things occured.

Sure, some things are not great - but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And as for feminists saying positive things about men? Here's some:

* I am a daughter, grandaughter, sister, cousin and girlfriend to various men. I love and respect them all.

* I believe that Men are NOT as a group out there to deliberately opress or harm women. SOME men do, but mass generalisations about 50% of the population is hardly worthwhile.

* There have been many great and inspiring men through history. We are better as a soceity for the great works of Plato, Michelangelo, Van Gogh; for the great inspriation of people like Churchill and Napoleon; for the great inventions of the Wright brothers... etc etc etc.

That said, expecting every woman who identifies as feminist to have to caveat their words with similar sentiments is MISSING THE POINT - you will find very few who genuinely hate or dismiss men entirely. There are of course some, but THEY ARE NOT the majority, or even a sizeable minority. They are very few, and should not be taken as representatives against the broad mass of women and men who aim to work together to make life better for ALL

Today I did some sustained research into the posting history of Seeker, JamesH and others.

I had thought that other posters eventually tailed off and left forums in your possession because a) they were intimidated b) they had no time or c)because only masochists enjoy having vitriol thrown at them. The reason I stayed with this one was, predictably, proprietary interest.

I'd also hoped that if someone kept in there plugging long enough you'd eventually see past the miseries of your own prior relationships and realise you're letting life control you instead of taking charge and making sure it was you who controlled it.

Guys, you all had raw deals and life has been harsh to you. The same applies to so many others in this forum. You, however, are allowing it to embitter you and, after an entire day spent plodding through your posts, that bitterness has infected me to a point where I feel physically ill - so I begin to see what it must do to you.

However, I have also seen that every reasonable response, every suggestion, every allowance that could possibly be made to you has already been done, over and over by people like "Ringtail", "Erica" Michael Flood, "RObert", "Ena" and scores more. Nothing anyone has ever said has ever touched your deep committal to justifying and increasing your own unhappiness.

Everything that could be said in response to you has been said over and over again during the past three years. Your replies all remain unendingly, unvaryingly and sadly the same. I can predict already the responses and charges this post will accrue:"pathetic" "arrogant" "condescending" "showing your true colours" "leftist" "bulldust" "feminist claptrap" will be probably the mildest.

However I shan't be responding to posts from any of you again. Not because I am intimidated , but because I now realise that anything I say will have been said before. No-one can prevent you from pushing your self-destruct buttons.

cheers - and thanks for the fish. c