Lizzie4

You have proved a point however it might not be the one you set out to prove.

Women want equal rights only and are turned off by the social engineering goals and baggage of gender feminists. Many women are effectively disenfranchised by feminists who claim to represent them while having entirely different goals in mind.

lizzie4, while a brutality against men and children continues out there for benefit of women, you will realize this is not 'whinning' but process of change towards balance...

For example, you raised domestic violence... Now the original study which came out with crazy result of some 70% of women in general population experienced dv by a man on which current dv law enacted, but study was funded by 'office-of-women' now totally discredited and further as 'predetermined results study', and with it Bureau of statistics lost international reputation lost for supporting it, so abs did another study last year I think, which showed it was no where near that prevelant (5% i think), male female 50% representation, and a child safest with their real(genetic) father... no word since from womens office nor change in dv laws...

We know 2 out of 3 relationships fail, and right now in your neigbourhood women are calling police with a 'fear' of violence and without any evidence and the police force removes the father from his children, family home and which soon after made as order in the local dv courts by police and government/politically sanctioned, womens effort was just a phone call now she has full child support, full power over children, and more stronger position in family court. Is it evil, the best definition I found as 'unbalanced self interest causing disruption destruction and trauma'... many men say as long as so many do this, then as a group most women are...yes... and you want proof then head off to the local dv courts, its a production line out there with happy women and trumatized men and their children...

Further, you have to accept that it must be women who organized and effected the above said... gives you the extent of how infiltrated in all things this 'sisterhood' power is... now do you understand why we men 'have' to act now before further dramatic shifts in society occurs...

Sam
Ps~I have left out my personal experience which in itself beyond my belief until I realized it is a common fathers experience worldwide...

I have lost track of the point I have been trying to make Cornflower, perhaps you can enlighten me. It is also interesting that you finally make the concession that feminism is not good for all women either. I think that I was trying to make that point earlier in that I don't believe that feminism is as all powerful as some believe. Is it a feminist conspiracy now?

Equal rights is an interesting concept as it sets something up as the standard to measure others by. By my understanding from these posts, women now have more rights in some areas meaning that men are less equal. So women are the standard.

Sam said, if you read my other posts you will find that the last one was a slightly tongue in cheek reaction to other posts. An earlier post of mine commented on the experiences of a friend and how I do not support such policies of domestic violence or family law.

However, I must point out that individuals have a lot of power in these cases. We can refuse to be bullied as I did in a court case where my solicitor wanted to portray my ex as an abuser.

And I totally agree that "...we men 'have' to act now before further dramatic shifts in society occurs..." It is about time that men looked at the decisions they make which land them in trouble. Many women, unfortunately are ruthless in using any power they have. Many but not all. However, from my experience, these are the types of women men go for. If you play with matches.... Also, the power might shift a bit if men take on more of the caring role for their children. Something to think about.

Lizzie4

OK, I will enlighten you.

You declaim that feminism is really about equality, but a heartbeat later you chortle that the 'them and us' battle is being won by 'us'. That betrays you as being about win/lose all along and not the win/win that most women desire. You were not being tongue in cheek, you were boasting and made a slip.

I think it is reasonable for men to distrust feminists when they are so often confronted with deliberate ambiguity and misrepresentation. If you doubt any of that you might like to consider just how convenient it is to employ rubbery terms like equality or equity in policy and regulations without defining them. Usually it is only when one sees the outcomes of the policies that one realises those terms could have very different meanings to those implied at the outset

Cornflower, you missed the joke but that did not mean that it was not there. If you had paid attention to what Lizzie has said in other posts you would have got it.

I don't think Lizzie understands just how bad the family law system has got but she is listening, she is engaging those who discuss the issues in good faith.

Yes it's fair for men to be cautious about feminism, by and large too few feminists have been willing to speak out against the abuse of feminism (by those using it for something other than equality) but maybe that has something to do with the way so many men refuse to deal fairly with the discussion.

Likewise it's fair for women to distrust the mens movement (whatever that is). Some of those speaking out on mens issues do seem to want to roll back the clock and put women in their place, some are just as willing to encourage and support the cheats who abuse the system as those we so despise.

In the middle there are men and women seeking a fair go for all, who do want equality but who may not be convinced that their own gender has it as good as some think or that the other gender has it as bad as some think.

R0bert

"Many women, unfortunately are ruthless in using any power they have. Many but not all"

Thank you Lizzie4, I could hug and kiss you.