Dozer and Robert, I certainly had no intention of dismissing the impact of becoming a parent on men. However, I will not take responsibility for the fact that you chose to read that into my post. That was certainly not the way that my husband read my post and I choose to trust his judgement over yours.

I do, however, stand by the quote that you selected out as proof of my prejudice Dozer. While men are effected in many ways by becoming a parent, their identity is rarely subjugated by that new identity (by society) in the same way as it is for women. I can't count the amount of women who have found that people stop talking to them about anything other than children once they have become a mother - thus dismissing their ability to have political thoughts or future career aspirations. That is a different impact and I have no interest in starting a competition on whether it is worse, better or the same as OTHER DIFFERENT impacts that men experience.

Finally, regarding leave: my husband does have access to paternity leave, which I think is fantastic and a sign that feminism is working in Australian society. I think that when we start truly accepting that the job of raising children is something that needs to be shared equality between men and women, and that society needs to support both men and women in that choice, then we will have a more equal and happy society. However, paternity leave is not the norm (and neither is maternity leave for that matter) and so our society is not there yet. Until it is, these issues will continue to arise for both men and women.

I, being a woman, will write about my own personal experience of those that impact on women. It would be presumptuous of me to try to sum up how it effects anyone else - let alone all men.

I have read and studied George Orwell's 'Animal Farm' and there are so many parallels between how the story unfolds in Animal Farm and feminism, that it is scary.

The animals were promised the utopia of equality, but gradually and insidiously the rules get changed until the animals find that they are living in a totalitarian regime.

"The absolute arrogance of men telling women what feminism is. "

As a man whether I like it or not, feminism has affected my life in ways that many women choose not to understand.

They should expand their intellectual horizons beyond the narrow feminist propaganda and read other authors such a Daphne Patai, Christine Hoff Sommers, Melaine Phillips etc.

Myrna Blythe who wrote 'Spin Sisters' exposes how womens magazines continually sell misery and unhappiness to the female readers. when people read enough negative stories, they then begin to view the world through that negative lense.

Cristy chose to turn her article about pregnancy into a political statement.

Sure life after children becomes much more complicated with different decisions and choices to be made.

"while the choice to have a child receives a “baby bonus” and then nothing."

This is incorrect, as eligible families can recieve the family tax benefit A&B, rent assistance etc. Mind you the government does claw that back where families face high marginal tax rates.

JamesH,

this is getting off topic, but I think that one of the issues surrounding the social change of the last 30 years is that, as Dr. Rebecca Huntley claimed last year, "feminism has changed what it is to be a woman, but has been silent on what it is to be a man". I think this is probably right, but I also think that men have to take some responsibility for identifying their roles in society given that it seems unlikely that ALL women are able to participate in a society where they are not expected (or want to) work while raising their children.

As we've seen from just this limited discussion, some men are pretty disagreeable to the concept that women might tell them what their role is: my sense is that Cristy resisted the temptation to tell others "how it is" about their own lives, she sought to relay her personal experience.

More broadly, I don't think women have a problem with self-idenfication of roles - surely that's what we've been trying to achieve for some time now.

Feminism is anything you want it to be.

Dr Rebecca Huntley is not talking about prescriptive feminism, because that, it already is (or isn’t, depending on your favoured branch). I would have thought her comments were critical of its exclusionary tactics, questioning its development in a vacuum without men or children, but happy to use either as ideological tools. This approach at best, seems naïve, at worst, narcissistic. The movement’s fragmentation is understandable since its cornerstones were laid on a foundation of fiction.

When is a feeling not a feeling?

When its explained, analysed or otherwise INTELLECTUALISED. It ceases to be a feeling.

Prefixing a statement with the words 'l feel' does not change a STATEMENT into feeling.

Taking a breathe is not the same as explaining the biology of breathing.

Emotion and logic occupy different perceptual realms.

l understand the tendency to do it. Avoids being logical or making sense by hiding behind the defence that its a feeling, thus transcends reason (cannot be right nor wrong). LOL. l feel that 1+1=2... right or wrong?

Folks pre-emptively defend an attempt to be logical and reasoned by starting with 'l feel.' Then follow with the logical construct that is dialogue (verbalised THINKING). Contradictory. Disingenuous.

Analogy... seeing a colour is different to discribing it. Experience of colour is akin to the feeling. Description of the experience is outside of feeling, entering the realm of analysis (logic).

The 'l feel' prefix provides the guaranteed side door of emotional manipulation in the face of unwelcome (invalidating) opinions for which a logical reply cannot/will not be contemplated.

Statements like... how dare you, lm offended, the arrogance of, l dont believe you can say, how can you say, are clear examples of attempts to induce shame based retraction of opinion. Its lazy and dishonest. Psychologically bullying people into silence.

Emotion (instinct) is a stronger motivation than reason (intellect). Political debate seeks to influence. Politics projects personal discontent thru seemingly rational (plausible) ideological constructs (a device). Emotion is the essence of personal discontent (politics). Attempts at pure reason fail or take too long.

Betrays a reasoned approach to compromise which is how oppossed interests harmoniously/tolerantly move foward. Disappointing in a discussion space like The Forum which alludes to reasoned, intelligent and logical discussion.

A rare few on this forum (l aint one of them) have integrity, rarely if ever invoking logical fallacies nor blatant dishonesties like appeals to emotion. They make this place worthwhile with their laudable contributions. You know who you are. Thanks.

Men and women are different! There is “men’s business” and “women’s business”. A joint blog is not the place to discuss either in detail. The last thirty years have required people to respond to huge technological change. The availability of the contraceptive pill, abortion and the morning after pill have challenged our identity as mothers and fathers. It used to be easy. If you had sex out of wedlock, and the woman got pregnant, mostly the couple got married, had more children and lived together into old age. The ability to choose pregnancy changed all that. This choice came within a context of belief in zero population growth. Standards of living increased because there were fewer mouths to feed. Suddenly families could improve their standard of living, not by redistributing income, by choosing not to have big families. Soon, choosing to have big families became socially sanctioned.
The feminist scholars saw “choice” as an opportunity. The concept came from Ralph Nader’s campaign against corporates who decided the cars and fridges we would have. Consumers had political power and got to choose the types of cars and fridges we had. The concept transferred into the motherhood debates.
A quirk of nature meant that it was frequently the women who were choosing not to have babies who were leading the debates. They fought for equal pay for equal work, for women’s health centres, for free safe abortion on demand and for free 24 hour child care. Most women, regardless of their choices, supported these initiatives. To be continued.